Merged: Gay Red & Gay/r, Still viable or old news?

[Pest]

well, I've been out of magic for a while, and haven't been on TMD in a while either, as some of you may have noticed. I am currently playing Gay/r and I am wondering if you guys could give me a little insight on how the deck still performs in todays meta. Any comments that don't result in flame wars are welcome. For those of you who would like to comment on my list, I'll post it for you. (my sb is outdated...need help on that). Thanks, here is my List:

Gay/r:

Creatures
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Spiketail Hathling
3 Voidmage Prodigy

Draw/counter
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle
1 MisD
4 Curiosity
4 Standtill
1 Ancestral Recall

Good stuff
1 Time Walk
3 Null Rod

Mana
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Library of Alexandria
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Faerie Conclave
2 Island

SB
4 Fire/Ice
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 REB
2 BEB
2 Maze of Ith
1 Stifle

Like I said my SB is a little outdated, so please comment on that. I am on a low budget as of now, so please don't reccomend Ninja Mask or Keeper to me, because I simply can't afford that right now. Out of budget decks in T1, such as Fish, Sui and some Sligh and stuff, I want to know which you think would perform better in the T1 environment. I have been happy with Gay/r so far, but I haven't played competatively with it in over a month, before the LED and Burning Wish restricting, so I'm not sure how it's been doing lately. Thanks for reading.

[Flurp™]

I know very little about fish, but I think that a 4th stifle would be better than that one Misdirection in here.  Also I never likes spiketails, maybe replace them with razorfin hunters.

[zero]

It's been a solid deck, especially if you run into lots of control, but with the sudden rise of aggro, fish decks tend not to do so well. You have evasive 1/1 fliers, they have 4/4 trampling wurms and wild mongrels, and your mazes will probably get stripped. Considering the prices of bazaars, I'm not sure I'd exactly consider Big O completely budget, just cheaper than your average type I deck, so that means fish is still probably the best budget deck.
You might want anti-artifact tech rather than all those blasts in th SB. Rack and ruin and energy flux are good, but if you don't run into workshops, they probably aren't necessary.
Keep the MisD, you will sometimes fnd yourself wanting another pitch counter, and stifle isn't always what you want to see.

[Plainswalker]

I think most people either play Mono blue fish, or Landstill. Landstill just has more room for better removal and more counters. Zero is right, basically you can't compete with the aggro of today, only with more control and removal can you take them on. So before I comment more, I guess it's best if you make a choice on this first. If you'd like to stay with Gay/r then I'll help you later.

[DavidHernandez]

the deck still rocks, and in my opinion is the best "Budget" T1 deck available.

Some changes have been made in recent builds, replacing Voidmage Prodigies with other stuff, like:

2 Misdirection,
3 Rootwater Thief,
and something else i cant remember to replace the Spiketail Hatchlings. (i think they are Razorfin Hunters)

Very strong deck.

dave.

[Pago]

I would really cut Voidmages. Consider the mana / resources you have to spend on him

Cast: UU
Cost: UU + Sacrifice

Assuming you pop itself (you wouldnt want to pop a lavamancer), its UUUU + a sacrifice. You could definetly use the sacrifice (any creature) and the UUUU could be spent on a lot of things. I would recommend trying Flying Men over Prodigies

[Moxlotus]

You should look into the Gay/r discussion in the "proving grounds" forums. Your deck is identical to mine except:
-2 fetch
-1 stifle
-1 Mis'd
+1 island
+1 null rod
+2 daze

I like Mis'D, but I like Daze more, especially with Spiketails. I have yet to test Razorfin Hunters, but they would replace Spiketails if i did. Kai kicks ass, he is a counter that beats. If you want to play other spells, well then don't keep the 2 blue mana open, just beat! Saying it is too annoying to keep the 2 blue mana open is like saying Conclave sucks because you have to use it(which is essentially    ) and      to use it. Kai is even a better deal to attack than Conclave is. Rootwater thieves suck flaccid penis. They just aren't good for me.  I have never been happier with them than a Kai.

Also my SB is:
3-Tormod's Crypt
2-Rack&Ruin
2-Fire/Ice
2-REB
2-Hibernation
2-Stifle
1-Maze of Ith
1-Energy Flux

With this SB I can board in at least 4 effective cards against almost every single decent deck in the meta.  I also enjoy diversification of cards to throw off your opponent, hence the energy flux+R&R.  Another thing about Gay/r is you don't want to SB in a whole bunch of things because them it is too hard to take stuff out and still have an effective strategy.

[Yttric Ventus]

I've never liked Voidmage Prodigy, and I face a good deal of aggro. I use four Razorfin Hunter over it.

Take out Polluted Delta and add another Faerie Conclave, four fetchlands should be enough.

[Pest]

I like Kai, I'm not sure if I would want to replace him. The most useless guy in the deck would have to be Spiketail, he flies and all but his ability isn't that effective. I may replace him with Razorfins, but idk how good Razorfins actually work. Like I said, I've been out of magic for a while so I'm not 100% positive as to what my meta looks like right now, but last I checked there was a lot of Keeper and Dragon. I'm not sure if that has changed alot, but aggro isn't too haavily played in my environment as far as I know. I really like MisD, sometimes I draw it right when I need it, especially after a standstill is popped.

@ Plainswalker
I am going to stick with Gay/r for now after thinking it over, so please make some comments on the list if you like.

[Yttric Ventus]

Daze is incredible. I highly recommend that you run them.

Razorfin Hunter is great if your creatures cannot attack (Ensnaring Bridge, etc.). It also kills key creatures (Goblin Welder, mirror match, etc.). It isn't very good if your meta is still Dragon and Keeper, so keep Voidmage Prodigy in.

My counters usually are:

4x Force of Will
3x Daze/Stifle
2x Stifle/Daze
1x Misdirection

[Pest]

I failed to mention that there is alot of Big O appearing in my meta. So We must take that into consideration in this discussion. I need to do some serious testing soon. I'm thinking of makeing the following changes to my deck.

-1 Stifle
-1 Voidmage
-4 Spiketail
+2 Daze
+4 Razorfin Hunters.

and in SB I was thinking of

-1 Fire/Ice
-1 REB
-1 Crypt
+1 Stifle
+2 Rack and Ruin/Energy Flux

This is nothing carved in stone, just an idea. Let me know what you guys think

@Moxlotus What is your metagame like?

[negator0808]

Gay Red, the "new" fish, is what many, including I, feel to be the primier budget deck for Type 1. It has amazing synergy in all of its cards, a superior draw engine to most decks, an underwhelming but surprisingly resilient and effective threat base, and enough permission and answers to deal with many archtypes. Here is my current list for Gay Red and a few questions I'd like to discuss for this archtype.

Gay Red

2 Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Faerie Conclave
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Mox Sapphire

4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Spiketail Hatchling
3 Voidmage Prodigy
4 Grim Lavamancer

4 Force of Will
3 Stifle
2 Daze
4 Standstill
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
4 Curiosity
3 Null Rod

Sideboard

2 Fire/Ice
2 Energy Flux
3 Rack and Ruin
1 Arcane Laboratory
2 BEB
3 REB
2 Tormod's Crypt

Things I'd like discussed are the cards in bold:
Is Voidmage Prodigy better here than Rootwater Thief?
Are Stifles and Dazes needed, and does MisD deserve a slot or two?
Is Arcane Laboratory needed anymore without Long?

Also, does anyone think Blinkmoth Nexus can replace the Faerie Conclaves?

[Jamino]

There is already a thread on Gay/R started with lots of useful information and I am sure it will answer your question.

[Hi-Val]

As a matter of curiosity, where did you find that decklist? It bears an uncanny resemblance to the one that I played with and wrote a tourney rep. for on Starcity, down to the 23 mana sources and Daze/Stifle configuration. The sideboard even boasts most of my choices, including my exact artifact hate. I might have more insights on the deck if it is. We can PM over the deck if you want, I am aware of the strengths and weaknesses of it.

[Batle]

I think that 1 Arcane LAboratory in sb is way to random.

Arcane is a card that you REALLY want to draw or don't want at all.

And I really don't think it fitts the build, the only deck it will help you against is rector and Reborn long, but stifle and counterspells should make that a fair match-up.

Besides that I really never liked daze in fish decks. you want to keep your lands down in play, so that you are able to keep 1 open for stifle and still beeing able to throw around with creatures.


And Nexus can't replace conclave because:

1. does not give blue mana
2. cost 1 to pump(major draw-back)

And NEVER take those stifle out, they are gold right now.

[Hi-Val]

Daze has an incredible psychological effect. If you have an Island on the board, your opponent will always assume you have Daze and play around it. I had to see it for myself to believe it. The nice thing is that if they see them game 1, you can side them out for better stuff and they still factor them into the opposing strategy : )

[Shaman]

I simply find Conclaves too slow...When I start with a Conclave my opponent always necros/bargains for the win, or plays some threat I can't get rid of.  I have found Ruby&Lotus to be much more good with Gay/r than the Conclaves: you lose 2 lands and 2 critters for the mid-to-late game, but you gain more power in the first turn. First turn null rod, first turn spiketail, first turn standstill are more valid option than a tapped conclave, and they can win you a game more often than the faeries. I have tried these artifacts and my matches against TPS, artifact-decks and many other T1 decks are improved a lot.

For this reason I claim Nexus doesn't have a chance to see the light in this deck too.

[Batle]

Removing the conclaves will be a big mistake. Conclave is 1 of the cards making standstill a great card. The problem of not having a Turn. 1 stifle I think is somthing that you some times must live with, and the only match--up this might be a problem is the Scepter match-up, were you really don't like T1 scepter with fire/ice.

And how often do rectal agony "go off" first turn?  

[Shaman]

Well, not so often. But even a first turn juggernaut can cost you the game if you can't daze it. There are so many things that can be dangerous in the first turn right now, and loosing it witha conclave doesn't seem a good thing to me. I have tried the lotus&ruby a lot and I have enjoyed them. I am more happy with them, since they allow an earlier board control and this is your goal in the end. Of course you lose the 2/1 faeries, but when you gain an early control you are going to win anyway. Against artifact-decks lotus and ruby can be match winner, much more than the conclaves. Immagine a Rack and ruin cast one single turn earlier...that wins games, usually.

[Batle]

I'm not saying that power should be dropped, but still I think that at least 2 are gold. Specially in mirror, and against landstill. Yes Turn 1 daze is ok, but I still don't like that card, because it's a major loss of tempo, and against  TnT loss of tempo, is really not a thing that you can afford.

[Raven Fire]

The most useless guy in the deck would have to be Spiketail, he flies and all but his ability isn't that effective.

Try playing a few games against the Hatchling and you'll see how annoying it can be.  I'm not saying it's got a locked spot on the deck, but I think it's under-valued.  A lot of times, if you're the one playing them, you won't see how much they can impact what your opponent plays.

[Hi-Val]

Hatchling means you are running 5 Time Walks in your deck. They are far too undervalued.

[SpencerForHire]

As mentioned in the other forum, the combination of the hatchling with daze can be deadly.  My friend runs a MonoU version and does a very good job of pulling wins out from his ass.  He in general will drop threats, then turbo draw, if I dont get a trisk or a platinum by turn 4 he wins.. (Not saying I dont get em out, i usually do, but still)

[leviat]

Topics Merged.

[Tijnie]

the reason this "budget" deck became so strong is because of its synergy. About everything in this deck can counter, draw or give you mana. Only Cloud of Faeries and Null Rod don't.  Both of them make perfect sense, Cloud is a nice Curiosity target, gives speed to this deck AND can be cyceled under a Standstill. Null Rod can shut down compleet decks and together with the strips in this deck, cause a mayor mana-screw.

I Know Spiky doesn't feel that great everytime. but he can say, This counterwar has ended. And like mentioned it can be soo cool with a Daze on hand. Kai is really expenseive. but it is such a bomb, A kicking hardcounter turning your Grim Lavamancers into Hard counters too. That's just to great to get Cut.

Rootwater Thiefs can be very strong in any Combo meta. He IS very Mana intesive too. 2 mana to remove a card (and looking though your opponents library) is great, but he doesn't screw you opponent at this mana, he's a real slow clock against combo, and isn't combo supposed to be really fast?? If you can stop combo the first 3-4 turns. why woul'd this guy be better then a Voidmage in that slot at that time?? I think if Combo doesn't go off around turn 1-3 you are the player with controll on the board right?? if that's the cae, you should just use your deck right and go out-counter him because that is what you can and should do.

Stifle is a GREAT card for this deck, and deserves at least 2 slots MD. it can be so powerfull taking out a land (fetch) of defending your own (man)lands from wastelands. Countering other things like scepters, Lackey's (and siege gangs) and whatever there is to counter, there will be almost NO matchup in wich these will suck.

MisDirection is a Meta Choise. It can be very strong in a Counter-war or as a defender of your creature's. There are so many cool things to give a New Target, I would really play 1 in very decklist and maybe even 2.

Daze's are tech, Mana is so inportant. If your opponent doesn't try to play around it you will counter him. If your opponent DOES they will be a bit slow. These things rock with Spiky's too so why hessitate

I hope it al makes sense, my English aint that great. and maybe I want too much Counter in this deck. Well my reason for that is I just found the Room   (No walk, and 61 cards)

Enjoy gay/R every-one, it still rocks like a ...... stone  

[Phantom Tape Worm]

I'm getting involved late in this discussion so some of my points may have already been addressed but that's ok.  More than anything, since i have largely remained silent on the topic of Gay/r since TMD has gone back up, i just wanted to let everyone know what i'm thinking right now.



Let me begin by addressing the faerie conclave issue, since i noticed a couple of you were thinking about removing them.

If you're going to drop the conclaves the clouds actually become less important.  This philosophy actually represents a shift in the game plan from a critical turn 2 to a critical turn 1.   One of the primary reasons that cloud was important to begin with was because "1st turn conclave go" was a common play.  This of course could be followed by "cloud, standstill" on turn 2 ideally, and thus the tempo killing come-into-play-tapped drawback of the conclave would be essentially negated.  If you no longer have conclaves the clouds may as well be flying men, which can swing curiously a turn earlier.

This type of thinking taken to its next logical conclusion (looking for a better early game at the expense of the later game) would lead us to add lotus for more explosive power.  1st turn lotus would have far more synergy with multiple flying men than it would with multiple clouds.


If you're serious about cutting conclaves, i would also suggest re-evaluating clouds as well.


I don't necessarily believe this is something that should be done, rather i'm just explaining the way i see it.  Personally, i don't think i would cut the conclaves and go the route of an increased chance at an explosive 1st turn.  As i'd rather have more reliable mana, and creatures (if i cut conclave i would at least try flying men in cloud's slot).



IMO the real questionable spot in the manabase is infact not the conclaves at all, but library of alexandria.  A while back there was a thread on TMD by smmenen that questioned whether library could be harmlessly unrestricted.  it's in the archive now:

http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=13414&start=30&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=

There were mixed feelings on the issue but it raised another interesting question: how good is library really?  Too often have i heard people complain about this card in Gay/r.  Does it need to be there when the manabase is already strained as it is?  Well the answer really is: it depends.  

Against control Library is still very good, and it will likely always be very good.  But against many common archetypes that put pressure on you to do something now (1st or second turn), be it fow, daze, stifle, or even just setting up to drop a creature to make curious, a first turn library can be a poor play.  Even later in the game library can be a poor draw when you are straining to meet the colored requirements of grimmy's activation and kai's countering ability while still casting spells and attacking with manlands.  


I don't want to say that library should be cut from the maindeck of Gay/r, becuase i think if your metagame has a high degree of control present then it is a very valid inclusion.  It also is still a synergystic card with clouds and the rest of the extreme drawing power of the gay engines.  However, there are plenty of matchups where you just don't want to see it at all; i want to eliminate the dogma that library is a necessary inclusion in this archetype, because it's not.


With that in mind, if you do go the route of cutting the library what do you put in its stead?  This is interesting because there are MANY options, even if you are sticking with the notion that it should be a mana source.

island
mountain
mox ruby
lotus
fetch #6
conclave #3

Honestly ANY of these could be argued, but my impulse is to go with the conclave or the lotus.

[Hi-Val]

I am considering putting in Fire/Ice in the Kai/Rooty slot. Maybe that makes it too much like Electric Alley, but Icing down an Island so your opponent cannot Mana Drain is tech. So is burning out Welders and Xantids! I have not yet found an all-around good creature for the spot yet, and in a diverse meta, I think they'll have to do. Maybe even Mystic Remoras will go in.

Sigil Of Sleep is a nice sideboard consideration too. I will tinker around with it.

[Raven Fire]

I am thinking of running 1 basic mountain and swapping 1 or 2 of the Strands/Deltas with Foothills/Mires in order to have a reliable source of red mana that can't be screwed by non-basic hate.  Yea or Nay?

[Hi-Val]

Have you run into that much non-basic hate? B2B, Blood Moon and Strips are the main NB hate. Blood moon turns them into mountains anyway (something you're looking to have on the board) and B2B screws you over pretty badly anyway. Strips are easily Stifled as well. You only really have to worry about B2B, which isn't played much, and try to counter it when it rears up. I wouldn't waste the main slots in the deck with such a tight mana base as it is.

[Shaman]

@Hi-Wal: I considered the inclusion of 3 Fire/Ice in the kai's slots too, but this only "on paper". Have you tried them IRL? I consider Fire/Ice a real tech in this deck (like Stifle, Daze and other spells as weel) but without Kais/Rootwater Thieves I fear to have not a reliable source of damage. I still have grimmies and other critters but I don't want to miss the kai's 2 power, and his little "clock"   . Any suggestions on this point? What to you think about this?

@PTW: I know the sinergy between Conclaves and Clouds but I miss your point entirely. If you start with: conclave-go, than the drawback of the conclaves will be completely resolved at your next upkeep, even if you don't play a cloud. Cloud are too strong by their own, and flying men can obviously be added at the deck but without the sacrifice of the clouds...they are a bomb you can't leave out: they cycle and they untap 2 lands...so they are for free 99% of the time while flying men still cost one blue mana.