Merged: Gay Red & Gay/r, Still viable or old news?

[Phantom Tape Worm]

@Hi-Wal: I considered the inclusion of 3 Fire/Ice in the kai's slots too, but this only "on paper". Have you tried them IRL? I consider Fire/Ice a real tech in this deck (like Stifle, Daze and other spells as weel) but without Kais/Rootwater Thieves I fear to have not a reliable source of damage. I still have grimmies and other critters but I don't want to miss the kai's 2 power, and his little "clock"   . Any suggestions on this point? What to you think about this?

Be careful just how low you go on the creature count to accomodate your techy blue instants.  I think going any lower than 14 would require you to start chopping curiosities as well.  Also, there is an issue of sideboard vs maindeck philosophy here.  It would seem to me that tech cards like fire/ice are better to have in the board.  Whereas Kai is an efficient creature with an ability that is useful vs anything.  As such, he is more flexible.  Of course you have to do what your metagame calls for, so if there's lots of xanthids and welders around by all means fire them.

@PTW: I know the sinergy between Conclaves and Clouds but I miss your point entirely. If you start with: conclave-go, than the drawback of the conclaves will be completely resolved at your next upkeep, even if you don't play a cloud. Cloud are too strong by their own, and flying men can obviously be added at the deck but without the sacrifice of the clouds...they are a bomb you can't leave out: they cycle and they untap 2 lands...so they are for free 99% of the time while flying men still cost one blue mana.

Let me try to better explain what i'm saying on the issue of conclaves.  When you play the conclave on your first turn it comes into play tapped.  If it would have been, say, an island, then you would have had the opportunity to drop a 1cc spell, eg. flying men.  Turn 2 you are then set up to swing, ideally with a curious creature.  

If it were a conclave you are not set up to swing with a curious creature until turn 3.  Because:
turn 1: conclave, go
turn 2: island, cloud, curiosity
turn 3: swing with cloud to get return on curiosity

compare that with:
turn 1: island, flying man
turn 2: curiosity, swing with flying man to get return on curiosity


The point is, if you drop the conclaves you open up the possibility of having a more important first turn.  

Why does this matter?
because it changes the way the deck is set up substantially.  All of a sudden things start to shift around as you now don't have to accomodate a game plan where you're thinking that your 1st blue source may be coming into play tapped.  Lotus becomes necessary (since now we are riding that 1st turn a little harder), clouds must be re-evaluated (we can get our curiosity investment back faster on flying men).

Why would you want to do this?
Getting your investment back (drawing a card) sooner is obviously better.

Then why haven't we done this in the past?
Remember, by taking out conclaves you are removing threats from your deck (that's bad).  Additionally, the clouds are very solid in that they can do lots of minor things that end up helping immensely sometimes like: fixing mana, make a factory really big, cantrip off Library, cycle under a standstill, help to work around choke, help to work around tsabo's web, etc etc.

[Shaman]

@PTW: Thanks for the explanations, it's al clear now. Anyway, assuming you have power, how many stifle/misdirection/daze do you suggest to run for a general metagame?

I tried this deck (60 cards) with only 23 mana sources (I cut one fetchland):

2 island
4 flooded str.
2 f. conclave
4 mishra's f.
4 volcanic isl.
1 mox sapphire
1 l.o.a.
4 wasteland
1 strip m.

4 curiosity
4 standstill
1 ancestral r.
1 time w.

5 slots for daze/misdirection/stifle
4 force of w.
3 null rod

15 critters

This way I have 5 slots for stifle/misdi/daze, and even fire/ice. Obviously, I'd want these slots to be more...anyway I can't find a 5-slots-configuration of the above cards for a general metagame that satisfies me. What do you suggest? I am thinking to use 2 daze, 2 stifle and 1 misdirection: are only 2 copies of daze good in this deck or you think at least 3 to be a must?

[Phantom Tape Worm]

I've never had any problems with the original version that ran 5 fetches main, and 3 dazes 1 misd.  While i understand stifle is solid, and vs something like dragon an absolute necessity, i never used it in the maindeck at tourneys.  That's not to say that it shouldn't be included in the maindeck, at the time i was playing it my metagame didn't have dragon overload, and so stifle was just ok most of the time.

However, assuming you do want stifle maindeck, your numbers don't seem too bad to me.  As long as you can keep your opponent on their toes wondering whether or not you have a techy blue instant you should be fine.

I chose to go heavy dazes in my original build because with wastelands it was something that hadn't been done before in gro (the deck that had previously used daze to good effect).  The synergy of the wastes + hatchlings + null rod made daze a great choice and very hard to play around.  Right now, I can't really think of a reason not to utilize that synergy with dragon having fallen by the wayside (and thusly stifle decreasing in power).  But i suppose you could just as easily make the same arguement for stifle being synergystic with the mana denial elements of gay/r (stifling a fetch can be good).

So yes, to sum up, i think 2 daze, 2 stifle, 1 misd is just fine.  Though cutting a mana source?  ouch.  Those are waters i dare not tread.

[Tijnie]

Stifle has mayor ownage in most most-ups. I found this card a great choice in my very Random Meta. Stifle a Strip to keep your own mana, a fetch to screw some-one else. Stifle to make Scepter useless, a triggered lackey ability, siege gang commander, Belcher (got me my 1 turn I needed for Rod) and all things like that.

If I Would cut a card, it would be 1 Spiky going down to 14 critters is good enough. this gives you, if we copy PTW's list completly) at least 1 free Stifle Slot.

About you land cut, as long as I play my Kai's I will NEVER drop any blue source. I've played this deck Loa-less (didn't own it) and I found myself not really happy on blue. I always had 1 source, but finding my 2nd/3rd was getting hard. just my experiënce.

[Hi-Val]

I cut a Kai for a Black Vise. Never have I seen a card that works so well with the deck's synergy. Spiketails, Null Rods, Waste/Strips, Dazes, FoWs and Standstills all punish a player for putting down cards. Vise clicks right in there, giving them a Catch-22 to look forward to during their upkeep.

Hell, you could even Standstill and then break it with your own Ancestral if you wanted to with a Vise down to make your opponent take 6 more damage. I just ask that people try it out. If you've come up with different conclusions, I would love to hear them! Spread the tech!

[Phantom Tape Worm]

The vise is solid, but it's more of a sideboard card.  I would be hesitant to add it to the main unless i am facing a lot of control in my meta.

If I Would cut a card, it would be 1 Spiky going down to 14 critters is good enough. this gives you, if we copy PTW's list completly) at least 1 free Stifle Slot.

If i absolutely had to have one more stifle that's probably where i'd pull the slot from myself.  I love spiketails as much as the next guy, but it's too often the weakest of the creature slots.  I would caution against going lower than 14 creautres though, curiosity is losing targets.

[Shaman]

I cut a Kai for a Black Vise. Never have I seen a card that works so well with the deck's synergy. Spiketails, Null Rods, Waste/Strips, Dazes, FoWs and Standstills all punish a player for putting down cards. Vise clicks right in there, giving them a Catch-22 to look forward to during their upkeep.

Hell, you could even Standstill and then break it with your own Ancestral if you wanted to with a Vise down to make your opponent take 6 more damage. I just ask that people try it out. If you've come up with different conclusions, I would love to hear them! Spread the tech!

@Hi-Wal: I proposed the Black Vise idea some posts ago, so I am glad to hear someone has already tried it. I have found it a very strong card against control, so it's really ok if you are going to play in a heavy control metagame. A first-turn Vise is a huge pain for Keeper and Hulk Smash...and of course for Landstill and for the mirror. The sinergy between Vise and your own Standstill makes this card more powerful than in other decks too, since it can be useful also against other archetypes usually not scared by Black Vise. I still don't know, at the moment, the right place for this card: like Stifle and Fire/Ice, it's probably a sideboard card for a RANDOM metagame, but if I am going to face a huge powered field I'd put it mainboard. Instead, I have tried Rootwater Thieves in the Kai's slots, like you proposed some time ago. I am not really convinced by Mike Long, and my tests proved it to be too slow for its purpose, so I still consider Kais a better choice, even against combo. For the fire/ice issue, I am of the same opinion of PTW: I would be careful in going under 14 creatures, since with less than 14 critters you can miss the lethal bites in the late-game. In my tests in an aggro metagame I found Kai a good chumpblocker too: fire/ice would have been better for this deck only in a few situations, but if we consider the combo match-up kais are a stronger weapon than fire/ice is.
Anyway I am going to work on the Black Vise idea more deeply.  

[Tijnie]

About the sideboard, I found Gay/R a bit un-succesfull in the new-agrro match-ups. Also, Landstill has been kicking my ass off. I found Fire/Ice a nice sb Slot, but they were so.. weird. most of the time I could block those 1/1 and 2/2's with a Mishra or just burn them with my Grim Lavamancer. I Played 4 Maze of Ith and found myself more happy, ut it wasn't enough. So now, I'm playing 6 (yes that is much, but my Meta  :shock: ) cards vs Aggro,   4 Maze's and 2 Masticore.

Masticore is one Horny Kicking Bitch. It is 4/4, it can regenerate and with the protection of 1-2 counters it is really undestructable. The regenerate saved my ass many times. Landstill has no answer to it, Goblins don't know whats happening to them and Green Aggro is getting so easy. Masticore has great synergy with Grim too, discarding cards during your upkeep will really keep your graveyard full.

has anyone ever tried Masticire OR other aggro hate then Maze and/or Fire/Ice wich was actually working. Or am I the only one that takes Fish, into a wrong Meta  

Tijnie

[Shaman]

I read the results from a tournament and I saw a guy runing 2 masticores in the side...they are a real strong option, maybe even better than a couple of fire/ice as sideboard cards. I don't think 6 cards against aggro are too much anyway! Consider that aggro is the match-up (with Landstill) you should fear most of all...

[Petko]

Null Rod and Masticore don't really have the best of synergy.

You suggested playing it in the Sideboard to use against Landstill. If you're bringing in Masticores into this matchup, that means you're taking Null Rods out. If this is the case, you really have no idea how important Null Rods are against Landstill; shutting down Nevinyrral's Disk is HUGE. This just leaves them with Fire/Ice to take care of your threats (albeit Fire/Ice is very strong against Fish, you take care of half of their removal right there).

Masticore is also a pretty big card for you in Gay/r. Getting up to four mana in this deck is not really an easy task; casting Masticore itself may be troublesome. Gay/r really tries to stary away from anything over two mana; it really wants to actively use Strip/Wastes, activate manlands, an on top of that, produce a constant stream of threats to overwhelm your opponent. Masticore is a card that requires such a mana investment each turn, which doesn't leave much possibility for popping out new threats.

Masticore is not all that invulnerable to Landstill. Most UR versions are running Chain of Vapour anyway. Don't forget that Teferi's Response also works against Masticore, and the can easily bait you with a Stifle in hand. Masticore does survive Nevinyrral's Disk, which is nice, but isn't Null Rod better anyway?

Masticore is also a Mana Drain target and a half!

[Shaman]

To be honest I thought of The-Big-Masticore only for the random aggro decks, and big-O, and madness. Against these archetypes your rods are pretty useless, so game 2 and game 3 they go to the sideboard and nice staff gets in. Now, your opponent will probably side-out "shatter"-effect too, aware of the fact you don't have artifacts they can be scared of. So the Masticore is twice stronger. Against Zoo, for example, I do find Masticore more powerful than a Fire/Ice: as you underlined the real problem of this guy is its casting cost, but 4 mana can be achieved pretty soon. Gay/r can tap out all its lands without too much problems, and aggro has not drains! couple the masticore with FoW/Misdi and the table can be turned in your favour.

This said, I am going to test it soon IRL. Anyway I agree that Masticore is not "the answer" against Landstill...Null Rod, as Petko said, are much better and in the end Masticore does not belong to this match.

[Hi-Val]

Against Oshawa, you could try Hibernation. Sigil of Sleep is another option, especially if you have Razorfin Hunters in your deck in the Kai slot.

Btw, Black Vise won me two games today, against Tog. I ended up T8-ing. Not bad for the little fish that can.

[Shaman]

@Hi-Val: I told you that Vise was the tech!   can you told us of your tournament and write a brief report?

[Tijnie]

yes, Masticore is a bit expensive but if you keep your wastes on the board, you're playing 24 mana sources.. you should really have no problem casting him if you want to. With all your counter, you can stretch the game far enough to get Masticore in. Yes, once he is into play, you can't always cast other things, but do you need other things then counter-spells (wich cost nothing) to win the Matchup   Most of the time, with Masticore on the board, the game turn to your favor and your opponent won't know whats happening to him. (after the first game, he expects to fight 1/1 creature's. not 4/4 regenerate's).


@Shaman, A guy with 2 Masticore's in his Sideboard. do you mean Castricum (01-02-2004) by Matijn Janssen... if so, you found my list  

[Shaman]

Yeah, I meant that list! Congrats for top-eighting. Unluckily, I have only one foil masticore...

[Shikari]

The vise is solid, but it's more of a sideboard card.  I would be hesitant to add it to the main unless i am facing a lot of control in my meta.

If I Would cut a card, it would be 1 Spiky going down to 14 critters is good enough. this gives you, if we copy PTW's list completly) at least 1 free Stifle Slot.

If i absolutely had to have one more stifle that's probably where i'd pull the slot from myself.  I love spiketails as much as the next guy, but it's too often the weakest of the creature slots.  I would caution against going lower than 14 creautres though, curiosity is losing targets.

Hi sweetie!  


Anyway...I think that if conclaves are cut, we should use 3 standstills instead, since there are less creature-lands to use with standstill.

[Tijnie]

I don't feel like agreeding here.

Faerie's and Mishra's are 6 Man-lands. that is more then a maximum of 5 strips. together with your own stiprs, you can force an opponent to break your standstill while he isn't actually ready to do that. more man-lands under a standstill is tech anyway, you can play around it and they can't. If you do cut a Standstill I think you don't know this deck. Standstill is your number 1 draw engine, it will almost nver be broken by yourself, and 2 mana, 3 cards is just ownage. Conclave's give you blue mana, the mana-base of Gay/R isn't that strong so cutting lands is no great option.

@Shaman, thnx though I should have been second. made a big play error during the final fight. I broke my own standstill while I had complete controll. (STUPID< I really fel asleep or something, I didn't even saw my own standstill). And giving 3 cards to W-mud isn't really smart with only 1 daze on hand. so, I fucked that matchup myself and lost 1-2, instead of beating him 2-1 wich I would have done.

[Moxlotus]

After playing an version of Gay/r over the weekend I've noticed that I think the deck is a little choked on the 2 cc slot and there are not enough things to do on turn 1.  Turn 2 I usually have to decide between Null Rod, Kai(sometimes, not really though-usually want something better), Standstill(not the obvious play if you don't have a Cloud) and Spiketail Hatchling.  I just had a brainstorm which I will be testing but am asking the opinions of others: what if we replaced Hatchling with Flying Men?

Does anybody else hate putting Curiosity on Spiketail?  Also, while Spiketail is a good creature, it really doesn't do much to hurt your opponent.  I always thought the strips and Spiketails were a severe hindrance, but my opponents always said that it really didn't do that much in the game.  It is no surprise unlike Daze.  

The deck's only 1 drops are Lavamancers and Stifle(unreliable especially 1st game).  You also could play your Conclave turn 1 to waste your turn.  What if Flying Men were in the deck to up the possibility of a turn 1 creature?  1 mana less and only loses its force spike ability.  Also gives a better chance to have an attacking curious creature on turn 2.

Also if Spiketails were removed how good would Daze be?  I would probably add Mis'D instead.  I think that in order to play Daze, Spiketails are needed to be able to throw off your opponents mana development.

Has anybody else tested this?
Does anybody have any thoughts on this?

[KrauserKrauser]

Well, in my build I run exactly zero hatchlings and have never encountered a situation where I wish I had drawn one.  Since I never wanted to put them in my builds I never really replaced them with anything.  My current creature count is 3 Kai 4 Grims 4 Clouds 4 Factory 3 Conclave.  I go this creature light to be able to maindeck 3 Stifle and 3 Null Rods.  I have played this deck for quite a while now and have not lost a match in two recent local tourneys.  

Big O has recently shown up in the meta and as such I have decided to take out the Fire/Ice in the side and add Sigil of Sleep.  I can't really think of any other way to get rid of Big O's fatties.  Also a TnT deck has popped up that I think I might have some troubles with.  Anyone have any experience with how Gay/r deals with TnT's fatties?

[Tijnie]

TnT is hard, but not unbeatable. Maze's can do the trick, Sigils can, Masticore can and don't forget, TnT is Artifact so you might take some more Artifact hate (Rack and Ruin, Echoing Ruin, Energy Flux) so you have enough options to beat that deck up.

If you run so few creeps, you must often pinch a Curiosity for your FoW's/MisD right?? Or you can stand there total creature-less with 2 Curiosity's on hand.

Spiky's are Amazing, ever swithced deck with your opponent?? if not, do so and feel how IRRITATING a spiky in play is if you're already low on mana (5 strips, rods and maybe stifle's). Really you know you MUST play around it, and when you do there's a great chance you'll walk into a daze too. I know 2 cards to counter aint really good... well all I can say is FoW often needs 2 cards too and he aint even kicking (doesn't cost mana but whatever   ).

[Raven Fire]

I just had a brainstorm which I will be testing but am asking the opinions of others: what if we replaced Hatchling with Flying Men?

Has anybody else tested this?
Does anybody have any thoughts on this?

PTW brought it up here (among other places):
http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=15097

[Moxlotus]

I just had a brainstorm which I will be testing but am asking the opinions of others: what if we replaced Hatchling with Flying Men?

Has anybody else tested this?
Does anybody have any thoughts on this?

PTW brought it up here (among other places):
http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=15097

That topic has nothing to do with the suggestion i made.  Nobody there made any comment about putting Flying Men in Gay/r, only about using Flying Men in mono blue fish.

[Phantom Tape Worm]

I don't know that making this change is necessary or even truly advantageous.  The mana curve for both gay fish and gay/r have always had only 1 creature at the 1cc slot while the rest were 2cc.  Is Gay/r any more clogged at the 2 drop than it has ever been?  Basically what i'm saying is: it's always been like this and has worked just fine.

Also spiketail adds another element of disruption and has great synergy with the mana denial components of the deck.

I'd sooner replace a spiketail with a stifle, not flying men.

But I could be totally wrong, try it and let us know what your experience is.  I've already discussed the value of flying men in another thread, i think they are good and i'd like to see them in use.

[KrauserKrauser]

I have decided to not play flying men mainly because they serve on beat down purposes.  The great thing about all of Gay/r's creatures is that they play two roles, both as threats and another threat.  I mean the basics are:

Cloud: 1/1 beats and a free spell to land a threat and a standstill same turn.

Grim: Mini cursed scroll as well as a 1/1 threat.

Kai: 2/1 beats that can morph in as well as counter a spell.  Also has synergy with the Grim for counters.

Spiketail: 1/1 beats with evasion as well as a walking daze.

Rootwater Thief: 1/2 beats with evasion and anti combo happiness.

Flying men: 1/1 beats with evasion.

Flying men have their good points but with stifle, grims, etc. I always thought that Gay/r already has enough one drops.

[Pest]

I agree with PTW, Spiketail adds too much to the deck to be taken out for Flying Men. Flying Men is cool and all, but Gay/r has a good enough creature base where Flying Men just isn't worth playing. I don't even think I'd take out Spiketails for Stifles, if anything I'd take out the 3 Daze and maybe a Kai for 4 MD Stifle. I actually only play 3 Stifle MD though and I just took out the Dazes for that.

The reason behind that is that Daze is an awsome card, nontheless, and it can really screw somebody over when played right. But It doesn't stop enough. Spiketail takes care of everything Daze ever would need to. Stifle adds a great element to the deck and can stop people from getting the lands they need to cast kill conditions, it can stop Dragon, Scepter, Storm Effects, Madness and all kinds of crap. There is so much more use for Stifle than daze IMO for those reasons.