Open Source: Meandeck's Death Long

[ill_Dawg]

Have you guys tested Channel yet? I'm loving it right now in TPS.  It's like having all the helms you need on the turn you want to win without helping your opponant.  ESGs make it easy to get off, and playing it generally wins you the game.  C. Spheres, memory jars, 1cc artifact mana, etc. all say you want to play with this card.  G'head, you might like it. . .

-=ADAM=-

[carlossb]

Heh.  Your sarcasm is not needed thanks.  
I tested Helm and found it dreadfully slow with no real benefit - it was surplusage.
Steve

Sorry, I was just posting ideas without any sarcasm (it could be I´m not very good at writing in english, I apologize)
 

[doomhed]

would it be worth testing a version cuttin the red/green altogether? possible includes are deminishing returns and another death wish. this would focus the decks mana requirements down to the most basic U/B manabase. the basic change is not all that great, but it might help you go off in certain situations, not having to worry about the re mana on burning wish. the cuts i would test-

-1 burning wish
-1 wheel of fortune
-1 crop rotation

+1 Cabal Ritual
+1 Death wish (if i read the wrond decklist then this is an open slot)
+1 Deminishing returns

also, other players have been using archealogical dig as a multicolored mana and to feed cabal ritual- what are your thoughts on this?

[Rico Suave]

I think losing both Burning Wish and Wheel of Fortune is just too much.  In many instanes, Wheel is the best draw-7 in the deck.  

I don't have problems with the colored requirements.  There are Chromatic Spheres, Mox Ruby, Lotus, and 10 land to help with those things.

[tehmajickguy]

When did the deck lose Wheel of Fortune? I don't recall it losing Wheel.

@Smmenen: First of all, you've done an amazing job taking a deck that was thought to be dead and making it utterly broken all over again. But I do have a question: How do you feel that this deck will fare in upcoming tournaments, with such cards like Null Rod becoming more used in decks like Big-O and Gay/r. And do you feel that this deck can be viable in the face of Workshop decks possibly adopting Trinisphere to their arsenal?

[Smmenen]

I think the best shot for combo decks may not be this sort of build, but instead the twister.dec.  Ironically, Death Long has the best resiliency inherently to hate becuase of having 4-5 maindeck wishes to find answers to hosers.

Steve

[franavalon]

Hi
Did you try Frantic search in your deck?
This card can be use to fill graveyard for threshold (cabal ritual) and perhaps for yawgmoths will, can search key card, and combine well with brainstorms, and is blue for FoW.
what do you think?
See you
Fran

[rozetta]

I've been playing around with this deck a little recently and came to some observations that might help development.

Firstly, the deck needs to make a little more mana than the original long did, since Death Wish costs 1 more than Burning Wish. However, with the restriction of LED, we lost the best mana accelerant the deck had (+3 mana).

I played around with a couple of ideas. One was to use a more similar mana generation engine to Belcher, with Tinder Walls and ESGs. However, I also kept some Cabal Rituals in the deck. With all the different colour mana accelerants, it might be prefferable to use Pentad Prism for filtering, since it's then free. Of course, one problem with this idea is that you don't get the card draw you would have done with the Chromatic Sphere. A further possibility with Pentad Prism is the use of Transmute Artifact to fetch Lotus, but that might be a little iffy (although it is another shuffler for Brainstorm). I think Seething Song is not an option, however; although it nets +2 mana for one card, it's casting cost normally means you'll have to use up useful colours like black and blue to cast it.

Another idea that might or might not be new was the use of a couple of Spoils of the Vault. Since the deck is more centered on black mana, we're often going to filter into black, ritual, wish, will. This fits in fairly well with the plan except for the fact that the life loss from spoils followed by life loss from Death Wish might be a lot (although this should be a moot point, since we should be aiming to build this to win on turn 1). Tainted Pact doesn't cut it, since it's 2 mana (although it's effect is preferrable). One thing to note is that you will have often burned through enough deck to make spoils for death wish not so bad. In goldfishing, I found that it was an average 6 life to find a Death Wish with 2 Spoils and 3 Death Wish main.

The third thought was to "combine" the ideas of Draw7 and DeathLong to get a reasonable threat count. This is something I haven't tried very much in goldfishing, but with possibly a Diminishing Returns maindeck, we hybridize the two decks. This is somewhat theoretical so far, since I've goldfished with a version running one Diminishing Returns maindeck but haven't been in a position where I needed to use it yet.

I've played around with different manabases and variations for a while now, but am not happy with any one particular build, especially when it comes to the manabase and balance of spells to mana. One of the key problems has been that the one-shot mana sources create a situation where you need a higher mana percentage which makes mulligans quite bad.

Here's a rough approximation:

3 Cabal Ritual *
4 Dark Ritual
4 ESG
4 Tinder Wall *
1 Crop Rotation
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Black Lotus
1 LED
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Grim Monolith *
1 Chrome Mox *
4 Pentad Prism *

* denotes uncertainty about the card and/or number of them

As you can see, that's 38 mana-related cards, which if you used them all, would only leave 22 card slots for business. Here's the obvious:

1 Timetwister
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Windfall
1 Tinker
1 Mind's Desire
1 Memory Jar
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor *
1 Mystical Tutor *
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Necropotence
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Burning Wish
3 Death Wish
4 Brainstorm

* Note these are less useful in the absence of Chromatic Sphere

And yep, that's already 22 cards.

Okay, this is just a theoretical list (and a bad one at that), but I've played around with all kinds of permutations and combinations of things, and feel like I'm just a tiny way off a decent build. My best goldfish has been something which goldfishes about 30% Turn 1, 50% Turn 2 and the other 20% I consider a loss, but I don't remember the specific build.

Anyway, I wondered if there's still interest in this deck or if I can possibly drum some up, since it might be possible to build this to go faster than draw7. Maybe I'm going the wrong way about this; the majority of the one-shot cards only make 1 extra mana which isn't in any way comparable to LED, but I thought I'd give it a try anyway.

[nietzreznor]

I too have been playing with Death Long quite a bit lately.  The version I have been testing with looks much more like old Long with -3 LED, +3 Cabal Ritual.  
   
    How has Pentad Prism been working for you?  I must admit, I never even thought of using that.  Right now I'm still running the Sphere, but only 2 because there is less need for color fixing with only 1x Burning Wish.  Also, how has the Chrome Mox been?  I was running in my first build, and ended up cutting it for Mox Diamond.  It just seemed like there was never anything I really wanted to remove for Chrome, or, if there was, it was the wrong color.

    I really would like to fit in the 4 ESG's, as you have done, but a) I like Cabal Ritual a LOT more, and b) I just can't see adding that much more mana.  In testing I have found 4 Duress (or 4 FOW) to be very important.

    As of yet, I have not tested Spoils of the Vault.  I understand the logic behind using it--i.e., you use it to find Death Wish (or, if you already have that, possibly Dark Ritual), then Wish afterwards.  My biggest problem (other than finding the space for it) is that there will be times when you need to blow an early Death Wish on removal of some sort.  Spolis kind of sucks after that.  Of course, the same could be said of Necro/Bargain, but they just win games.  I should also say that I haven't really had trouble finding Wishes before--maybe I'm just lucky...

   Diminishing Returns in the MD is also an interesting idea (I believe Smmenen has already tried this?)  I haven't added one because I still like running Mystical Tutor, and I can't really think of anything else to cut.

    One idea I have been toying with is either a MD or a SB Colossus.  There are quite a few decks, I think, that would have a VERY difficult time dealing with a turn 1-2 Colossus.  It wouldn't be a bad idea (certainly worth testing, at least) to side out Tinker (or leave it in main?), side in the Colossus (and Returns if you take out Tinker to Wish for), and go for the early 11/11 against decks with no real way of removing/racing him.

   Really, though, I think this deck has a LOT of potential.  I haven't sone the necessary testing, and I haven't won tournaments to verify this, but it seems promising.  It's good to see that someone else feels the same way.

    -nietzreznor

[Ultima]

I understand the interest in this deck, its the only real tendrils deck I feel like playing also.

And yes, as one can see from the beginnings of this thread, there were 2 returns in this deck at one point.

As far as pentad prism, I understand the thoughts behind its testing but I really think that chromatic sphere is superior not because of the filtering but because of the draw.  There have just been too many times in testing and goldfishing when that draw was crucial.

I also think that mox diamond is better than chrome because each spell in this deck is so key.  I'm curious why you, Rozetta, were playing chrome over diamond when your previous statements were implying that the deck already seems spell short.

FOW is the a must in this deck like any combo deck right now and I don't think this deck can support duress with extra mana needed to keep it running like Rozetta said.

As far as the idea about hybridization, i think that's a very interesting idea.  In many ways this deck is already sort of hybridized as its running at least 1/2 of the number of draw7's already as an autoinclusion.  I guess it depends on how many returns you wanna try.  I guess if FOW is a must then it should be at least 2.

I do still see alot of the earlier difficulties that Smmenen and others were talking about previously in the beginning still about how the deck requires more color consideration and alot of thinking about decisions.  It doesn't feel like it can still go turn 1 about 50% of the time though.

I have tried different things also like Fastbond, ESG's, and other things but I really can't see how make it that fast and consistent anymore either to the where it could be better than belcher.  

PS, I also agree that the right number of cabal rits is 2.

[Whatever Works]

I believe that this deck can either evolve to go 1 of two different ways. It will either go:
1.) Down to a 2 color Black/Blue version to increase consistency, and consistency is the largest problem with almost any combo deck over the course of 6 to 8 rounds. The likely changes would likely be something like...
-1 burning wish
-1 Wheel of Fortune
-1 Crop Rotation
-3 Chromatic Sphere
+1 Death wish (going to 4)
+1 Diminishing Returns
+1 Hurkyl's Recall (more consistency)
+1 Frantic Search (great synergy with Academy and Cabal ritual)
+1 Cabal Ritual (bringing the number up to 3)
+1 Overpriced broken card or maybe Windfall/Time Spiral (time spiral i would have strong doubts about because you want to win fast and untapping 6 lands in any situation means you would have already lost, or you stalled terribly.)
The entire mana base land whise would have to be redone, but with 2 colors.
This lowers the brokeness factor to a small degree, but adds consistency that can be good in the course of several rounds.

The other direction the deck can go would be the more aggresive route that some people like more. I have found that the deck using more then 2 colors is just two mana hungry to really use chromatic Sphere that gives a net loss of 1 mana. I replaced it with Pentad Prism that im still testing, but so far have found it to be very good because of the following:
1.) Chalice is almost always laid down for 1, and pentad costing 2 can help get the exceleration when combined with 1-2 lands in play to cast wish.
2.) It can really help to set up a kill the following turn and usually more effectively then chromatic sphere. Very often the prism acts like a dark ritual accept for any mana of my choice the following turn.
3.) If it is used while going off on the same turn it can act as a storm count booster without losing the deck mana overall like sphere.
4.) Getting the 2 counters on Pentad prism occurs almost everytime without fail especially if you play ESG etc.

I am not sure if its superior to sphere, because sphere lets you draw cards that are broken off a vamp or dare i say mystical ( though i know smmenen dispizes this card and has made it pretty clear.)

[dohsign]

What about putting brain freeze in the deck ...
Freeze in response to Will could be interesting. It is like Ancestral, but with Storm.

[Smmenen]

Interesting question.  In instead of needing BB2 you would only need 1U to Death Wish up - but, you would also need 19 Storm.  I think adding 1 Brain Freeze to the SB would be the only way to tell.

I also think, after some consideration, that attempts to replace LED are doomed to failure.  There is a reason that two cards were restricted to kill this deck.

[dohsign]

I think you misunderstand. It seems to me that this deck wins by playing Will. Before Will, one could brainfreeze oneself to stock up the graveyard. Post Freeze Will would get an extra 6 or 9 cards in the graveyard to play around with. BF isn't the kill card, but rather a form of draw.

[Whatever Works]

Im just wondering if you have found only 2 ESG random at times? Maybe the number is perfect, but based on speculation and playing other combo decks (unfortunetly i havent tested version in particular yet.) I have found that ESG has only been good in running 4 or none at all. My reasoning for this is that having 2 is inconsistent, and rather random. ESG is used mainly as a catalist that is most effective off an opening draw or a draw 7. Having 2 in a way goes against all the consistency ideas, and when i am playing combo in a major tournement I know from the start that i have the most broken deck in format, but to counter balance that aura of power that comes with combo is inconsistency. This is all based on theory so i will post after more testing, because theory can be wrong... just look at standstill.

[Whatever Works]

Im just wondering if you have found only 2 ESG random at times? Maybe the number is perfect, but based on speculation and playing other combo decks (unfortunetly i havent tested version in particular yet.) I have found that ESG has only been good in running 4 or none at all. My reasoning for this is that having 2 is inconsistent, and rather random. ESG is used mainly as a catalist that is most effective off an opening draw or a draw 7. Having 2 in a way goes against all the consistency ideas, and when i am playing combo in a major tournement I know from the start that i have the most broken deck in format, but to counter balance that aura of power that comes with combo is inconsistency. This is all based on theory so i will post after more testing, because theory can be wrong... just look at standstill.

[Smmenen]

It makes sense as a theoretical matter.  One shot mana is something too many combo decks have in excess.  The two ESG's faciliate random turn 1 draw7s that create lethal turn twos.  Drawing 2 ESGs is a huge drain on the stability of your hand.  I started out with one, and then added another and have been pleased ever since.

[nietzreznor]

Steve: I noticed that you have gotten rid of both the Chromatic Spheres and the Cabal Rituals--do you miss those at all?  I have been contemplating getting rid of the Spheres--I HATE drawing them when I don't specifically need them, and they often seem to slow down the deck too much.  The Cabal Rituals, though, have been okay--not spectacular, but solid (especially after Wheel or Windfall).

    I have to agree on the Duress vs. FoW issue.  I've tried both, and Duress has been great so far.  The downside is that you cannot stop a turn 1 3sphere, etc. if you are drawing, but it seemed rare that I would not only have the Force, but also a blue card I could afford to pitch.

   Do you really think that FoW and Wasteland are that big of a problem?  In testing against, say, 4CC, they were never a huge problem.  Wasteland often seemed to slow, unless combined with Null Rod or 3sphere/ Sphere of R.  3sphere seems like the biggest problem so far.

     -nietzreznor

[Purple Hat]

I've been playing alot of workshop decks recently and I've found that a turn one 3sphere is almost never responded to by combo players with a force of will because they simply don't want to pitch their good cards to it.  I think hurkyl's is probably a better plan against workshop anyway.

Steve-do you still find yourself with enough mana to go off after casting death wish without the cabal rituals?  It seems to me that in this build you would end up short mana after wishing for Yawg's Will.  A problem old long didn't have.  Then again in old long burning wish usually cost 3 and cantriped so perhaps not.  

I clearly need to devote more time to this deck Gencon seems to be bearing down on me at this point.  I need more time to test. God damn it.  I'm not even sure what I'm playing yet.

[Ultima]

I really think that 4 Death wish too many.  Even the older lists and original post starter reflected less death wishs.  I often find when fishing or playing that more than 2 just clunks up my hand when I'm searching for more acceleration.

I think that the list should -2 death wish for +2 cabal ritual.

[Purple Hat]

Ultima, I think you need at least 4 wishes total.  That means you need to play the third Death Wish.  Otherwise you get a problem where you can't afford to use a wish to go get sideboard answers and still expect to draw another one in time to win the game with it.  Since the primary strategy should be to wish for Will and generate spell count/mana with it you need the extra wishes.

[Smmenen]

Two death wishes are indeed horrible in the opening hand, but proper shuffling should minimize that - as should Brainstorms.

[Whatever Works]

Has anyone tried a 2 color version besides me? I have found that though it is slightly less broken, it is alot more consistent. Brokeness is fun, but in a 6 to 8 round tournement the following is true:

Consistency > Brokeness (in the case of 2 color to 4 color variations)
1+ Gay/R
1+ Workshop that runs 4 Maindeck Trinisphere/chalice

This general situation being the case i believe that a 2 color version is more able to recover from a turn 1 trinisphere or a mid/late game lock. The reasons for this are because of more sources to pitch to FoW (not a huge factor but can help). Ability to run an extra maindeck Hurkyl's recall that can just win games you should lose. However, the deck loses ESG that can help get the first 3 mana to burning wish for an answer first turn to a trinisphere. Well now that i contradicted myself i will say that the 2 color version just tests more stable and mulligans less which i find helpful vs. decks that play first turn trinisphere, because im more likely to not have to mulligan down as often, or put myself in a situation where the broken cards just arent broken... I believe than a maindeck 1 mana answer to null rod etc. would maybe be helpful though it might not be the right way to go.

[Smmenen]

I think that you are ignoring the fact that if built right, the extra colors should impose no extra cost on the mana base.

City of Brass has a life cost - which is negligible.  Gemstone Mine isn't usable more than three times.  Academy is infinitely reusable.  And Glimmervoid is risky against decks with Trinisphere and Shaman.  I think the solution is to go to 2 Underground Seas, 1 Academy, 4 Mines, 4 Cities if you are afraid of Trinisphere and Shaman.  Wheel of Fortune is too good not to use and green sb gives you Oxidize and Xantid Swarm.  Additionally, Crop Rotation is a great MD anti-Wasteland card.

[Ultima]

Ultima, I think you need at least 4 wishes total.  That means you need to play the third Death Wish.  Otherwise you get a problem where you can't afford to use a wish to go get sideboard answers and still expect to draw another one in time to win the game with it.  Since the primary strategy should be to wish for Will and generate spell count/mana with it you need the extra wishes.

While I understand this notion, i disagree because it just hasn't been happening like that in playing the deck.  I think you have to remember that wishes are not the only win condition.   There are 7 win conditions total, and Wishes are most top heavy of all of them.  Burning Wish was cheaper than Death and I agree with Rozetta that this deck needs more mana to facilitate its game because death wish is more expensive and color specific.

Draw7, which is supposed to be better than Death Long, runs even fewer win conditions and this deck shouldn't be viewed as nearly as good as Long was.  Death Long has a much harder time facilitating Long's gameplan and yawg will is not always the best option when you can wish.

This deck really needs acceleration more than extra wishes.

[VGB]

This deck really needs acceleration more than extra wishes.

Has anybody tried Helm with Cabal Ritual?  I don't know what you'd cut, but I'd start with Chromatic Sphere and work from there.

Don't forget that Helm counteracts Sphere of Resistance, also (but not 3sphere, unfortunately).

-edit

Bah, just saw that monotone posted the same thing on the first page :p

[BreathWeapon]

It's extremely hard to even justify playing the deck, when you look at the success and stability of TPS in Europe. I think the deck definately needs to use Cabal Ritual at 4x, otherwise there is simply no justification to play Death Long over TPS (Both of them are roughly the same speed). Back when I was playing this deck, I found Burning Wish to be the least desirable Wish in the deck. It's easier to pay 1BB than 1R when going off.

Also, I think Death Long shouldn't bother with a MD Tendrils. Just put 1 Tendril in the SB along with a Brain Freeze.

Even tho' I really like basics in TPS, Death Long really does need the added Fire Power of Wheel and Random Wins of Xantid Swarms vs Control.

[Smmenen]

I'm thinking about cutting the Crop Rotation.  Academy has gotten in the way of my BB more than once and its been frustrating.

Another issue I need to resolve is whether the Underground Sea stability is a cost more than its worth given that Titan is around.

Is it worth it to try a City of Ass?  The 3 damage land?  

Also, against what do you bring in Xantids against, and what do you SB out?

One other option, and this is intriguing.  You could put Tinker in the SB, and play with a Darksteel Collossus maindeck.

[TrixR4Kidz]

One other option, and this is intriguing. You could put Tinker in the SB, and play with a Darksteel Collossus maindeck

YES!!! I brought that Idea up to my friend when he was messing around with storm combo, Sometimes you just can't combo out, but you can tinker in the big man and just win that way, it's also a nice suprise factor when they expect you to bring in jar.

[Ultima]

I don't think that the colossus idea is a viable one.  I do understand the strategy though but with 4CC everywhere, its just a swords to end that gameplan.

I SB the swarms against 4CC and usually take out the duresses/FOW's.