Black Hole a Variant to Chalice Black, Better or not?

[BlackmindKDC]

Black Hole

Draw/Tutor (5)

1x Necropotence
1x Demonic tutor
1x Demonic consultation
1x Vampiric tutor
1x Yawgmoth’s will

Control/Disruption (19)

4x Duress
4x Hymn to tourach
4x Sinkhole
3x Null rod
4x Sphere of resistence

Misc. (0)

Kill (12)

4x Withered wretch
4x Nantuko shade
4x Phyrexian negator

Mana Base (24)

1x Strip mine
4x Wasteland
1x Black lotus
1x Mox jet
1x Sol ring
3x Bloodstained mire
9x Swamps
4x Dark ritual

Questions, comments, concerns welcome.

[EchoBoy]

Running Negator main with no way to protect him versus topdecked burn or creatures is bad karma. If you are in a control meta thats fine, but you didn't post a meta ::cough:: how would I know. Fetchlands, not so good in this, i suggest removing them for swamps, or if you have them, Mishra's Factorys. Now if you are in a control meta, that means the Hymns are an aweful, AWEFUL idea! They are misdirectable and that causes pain. Chalice is a fine card do not disregard it.

-3 bloodstained mire
-2 swamp
+4 mishras factory
+1 lotus petal

-4 hymn
+4 cabal therapy

consider adding negators to sb and using hippes main

that should help

[b_1e1_n]

This is a rip off the black discard deck I posted earlier, card-for-card with 3 changes:

Mine had no necropotance
Mine SB'd Withered for Capnomancy but listed that as the card switch out vs dragon
My mana base had no mires or sol ring (at one time my mana had 4 mishra's factories but when I posted I don't think it did, although it does now)

So, with that all in consideration, yes it is better than normal butter knives, but try to make it more original if you want to call it "new".

And I would switch out 3 mire for 3 mishra's factory and 1 necropotence for 1 mind twist, or if not necro then demoinic consultant.

[Bram]

This is a rip off the black discard deck I posted earlier, card-for-card with 3 changes:

Mine had no necropotance
Mine SB'd Withered for Capnomancy but listed that as the card switch out vs dragon
My mana base had no mires or sol ring (at one time my mana had 4 mishra's factories but when I posted I don't think it did, although it does now)

Dude, this is a Sui variant. It's actually a challange to change MORE than three cards. I can give you five different lists that look like yours minus 3 cards or so. There's no reason to accuse him of ripping 'your' very generic list.

[nietzreznor]

Not all control decks pack Misdirection.  If you are expecting lots of GAT, Fish, and Landstill, then Hymns may be bad, but they're great against Keeper and Hulk.

[ump]

Here is a link to the original Chalice Black thread.
http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=11664

Now, let's see what changes you made.
-4 Chalice of the Void, +3 Null Rod, +1 Vampiric Tutor

First, the importance of Chalice of the Void from the other thread.

Null Rod versus Chalice: Null Rod doesn't stop burn, Plows, Duress, and Brainstorms. It forces Moxen in hand however, which dilutes Hymns.

Your big threats are Brainstorm against discard and sword and burn against your threats.  COTV helps your deck more than Null Rods.

Second, Vampiric Tutor is not going to help you that much.  Your deck is redundant enough that you will probably topdeck something good anyways.  Demonic Consultation is the better of the two 1cc tutors.

-1 Lotus Petal, +1 Necropotence
Lotus Petal is there for the early game so you can cast your spells quicker.  Necropotence is there for the longer game.  It's usually there for the control matchup, but if you have COTV, then you shut down a lot of their options and can go for the quicker victory.

-3 Swamp, +3 Bloodstained Mire
The fetchlands are there to thin your deck.  However, do you really want to thin your deck?  With Sphere of Resistance and Nantuko Shade, topdecking lands isn't so bad.

-4 Mishra's Factory, +4 Withered Wretch
Again, with Sphere of Resistance, you don't mind a threat that can be played underneath it.  Withered Wretch seems to be better suited in a more controlish deck because this deck wants to be aggressive.  I would leave then in the sideboard, and when they side in, use a different slot instead of a land slot to come into.

[dad]

This may seem totally contrary to the spirit of your deck, but you may wish to onsider Damping Matrix.  This could:

1. Hurt the mana sources of decks because with Null Rod attacking Mox ,Lotus, etc..., Sinkhole and Wasteland hitting land, and the DM taking away Birds and such you can create problems.

2. Stop Tog, Morphling, and Welder, as well as many other creatures.

It would make you have to reconsider your creatures (maybe bring back Hyppie).

Anyway, it is just a thought, maybe an incredibly stupid and unqualified one, but there you have it.

[Gaea2]

I have been working on a suicide variant for the new metagame recently because it can be built successfully without power, and is strong against control and combo to some degree, two popular deck types right now.  First here is my list:

4- Shade
4- Negator
4- Wretch
4- Flesh Reaver

4- Duress
4- Hymn
4- Sinkhole
3- Null Rod

1- Yawgmoth's Win
1- Demonic Tutor
1- Demonic Consaultation

4- Dark Ritual
4- Wasteland
1- Strip Mine
17 Swamp

Sideboard:
4- Chalice of the void
4- Sphere of Resistance
3- Masticore
3- Powder Keg
1- Sol Ring

    This list is basicly an unpowered build of Legend Black, but with a diferent sideboard.  Wretches are now more powerful than shades, they are cheaper and stop AK, Survival, Dragon, and Squee- Bazaar.  Negators and Reavers hope to end the game as quickly as possible, before scepter can hit or your oponent can recover and go off.  Duress is a bomb, and hymn is still a powerhouse, especially when you see the useless stifles that were once misdirections hit an opponents graveyard.
   
    Mana bases are becoming more and more varied with top decks normally running at least 3-4 colors (Tog, Keeper, venguer masque and scepter control).  Wastelands are almost never dead and even when faced with mis-d sink holes are not card disadvantage (although the tempo setback can be a pain).  The null rods stop moxen and more importantly in my meta, scepter and mask, which can each devistate a sui deck when active.
   
    The side board is largely a result of my needing to do more testing, but contains a number of bombs against various decks.  Chalice is powerful against both cheap weenie (sligh and stompy that sui hasn't fared well against game one) and combo decks.  It can also be played for one to stop brainstorm and swords.  The sphere can hurt combo, control and fast aggro, but I wonder it it is needed along side chalice.  Has anyone tested trini-sphere in sui?  I doubt the manabase could support it.  Finally the masticores and kegs are there to give you a chance against what are probably the deck's worst matchups, tnt and mask respectively.

    I wonder if R/B is the best way to go, as you gain Blood Moons and Rack and Ruin for your two worst matchups.  My major question is which is most powerful in suicide maindeck, null rod, chalice, keg or sphere?

[ump]

I believe this to be the theory of Chalice Black and variations.  The first order of business is to preemptively slow down your opponents abilities to answer your threats.  This is done through a combination of card denial (discard) and mana denial (land destruction and spell modifiers) and now preemptive counterspells (chalice of the void).  Attacking any single area alone (such as a pure land destruction) is likely to be unsuccessful because the goal is just to throw your opponent off balance to sneak in a threat rather than go for complete dominance.

Second, once the opponent is off balance, go in for the kill quickly (Negators, Shades).  Note that this is the reason why Hypnotic Specter isn't so good anymore.  It just takes too long for the kill.  The more time it takes to kill, the more time your opponent has to recover.  Also, I don't think adding more threats is that good of an idea.  The reason is because the threats aren't that strong on their own.  Letting the disruption do the work early is the key for any chance to win.  Then, you only need one or two threats to go all the way.  One other thing that I would like to mention is that when you side Wretches in, you probably want to put it in the Shade slot because you don't really want to decrease the amount of disruption unless it truly is useless in the given matchup (which is unlikely).

Now consider adding Damping Matrix for a moment.  What role does that serve?  It's not mana denial because it doesn't stop the moxes (Damping Matrix - Activated abilities of artifacts and creatures can't be played unless they're mana abilities).  Stopping most creatures such as Tog or Morphling is not a priority because you are the aggro deck.  Damping Matrix is just a minor annoyance that they will get rid of at their convenience because it really doesn't affect them until they are ready to win anyways.  Your priority is to ensure your threat goes through unanswered.  Chalice of the Void for 1 takes care of most of the creatures that you are worried about in the early game anyways.

[BlackmindKDC]

My new decklist;

Black Hole

Draw/Tutor (3)

1x Demonic tutor
1x Demonic consultation
1x Yawgmoth’s will

Control/Disruption (24)

4x Duress
4x Unmask
4x Sinkhole
4x Null rod
4x Sphere of resistence
4x Chalice of the void

Misc. (0)

Kill (8)

4x Nantuko shade
4x Phyrexian negator

Mana Base (25)

1x Strip mine
4x Wasteland
4x Mishra’s factories
1x Lotus petal
1x Black lotus
1x Mox jet
1x Sol ring
8x Swamps
4x Dark ritual

Changes made;

-4 hymns/+4 unmask

This is becuase with rods and chalices there will be lots of extra cards in hand so hymns will be diluted severly.  No therapy cause i will be setting chalice at one alot and not many creatures to sac it to.

-4 Withered wretch/+4 factories

The wretch really is more of a sideboard card and factories are great, thanks to ump for this one.

-1 swamp/+1 lotus petal

With 16 permanent mana sources i should be fine and speed is key to this deck to compete, again kinda thanks to ump and  EchoBoy for this.

-1 necro/+1 rod

More rundundency and necro is there for control matchups and i want to win faster, plus the chalices will shut off a decent amount of control stuff, yet again thanks to ump for this.

-1 vamp, -3 mire/+4 Chalices

The vamp is really not needed with the redundenacy and i don't need to thin the deck.  28 mana sources would be high also.  It will also be interesting to have all sphere, rod, and chalice maindecked.  Should improve more matchups without losing anything.

I'm new to vintage so this is why i'm trying to get a cheaper but effective deck like this built.  I'm at college and there's not really anyone around that plays vintage so i really don't have a meta so thats the reason for no sb.

Thanks for all the comments, keep them coming.

[blankpagez]

I would suggest keeping the Withered Wretch. He is pretty good against cards that manipulates the graveyard like Pscyhotog, opponents Yawg Will, AK, etc etc....

You actually wanna put all 4 Null Rods in main ?? Maybe take one to the sideboard and replay it with Necro. You can't lose much if you're drawing cards.