In the trenches - a test

[DavidHernandez]

I'm going to present a "test question" (a brain-teaser if you will) to get your thoughts in order on why some things should be done in a certain way.

I'm asking that only users with BASIC TMD Accounts respond to this, until the answer is revealed by me (or somebody "gets it").  After that, if anyone cares to discuss this, feel free.

Pay attention to the details.

I will post an answer this question (with reasoning) tommorow night.

Mods: If you feel that this is in the wrong place, please feel free to move it.

--Dave.

The Situation:

You are playing a Budget Red deck with Juggernauts and some direct damage.  Your opponent is playing a powered deck.

Your opponent is at 3 life. You are at 2 life.

Your opponent has 6 cards in hand, and you have 2 cards in hand. Your cards are Juggernaut and Fire/Ice.

All you have in play are two Mountains and two Wastelands.  You try to cast the Juggernaut.  Your opponent uses Force of Will to counter the Juggernaut (pitching a Cloud of Faeries).  He drops to 2 life as a result.  You pass the turn since you are tapped out.

On your opponents turn, he draws a card and casts a Voidmage Prodigy (face up as a 2/1).  Besides the Voidmage, he has 2 Islands in play, and both of them are tapped because he used them to cast the Voidmage.  He has four cards in hand again.

Your opponent passes the turn.

It is now your turn.  You untap your two mountains and two Wastelands. You draw your card, and it is another Fire/Ice.

Explain how you guarantee that you win on this turn, and why.

[Ultima]

David,

its really quite easy.  You cast your fire on his face with a waste and red, he dies or forces.  If he forces then you respond by fire again with other red and waste.  If he forces he still loses because he's at 1 already.

My .2 cents

[Pinky]

Cast Fire, targetting the Voidmage and your opponent. In response cast the other Fire, with the same targets. That way you can make sure your opponent doesn't misdirect your damage.

[DB]

He is tapped out, but is playing Force of Will.  He has 4 cards in hand and can Force both Fire/Ice that you cast to kill him, but if he does, he will go to 0 life as part of the alternate casting cost of FoW is to pay 1 life.

But he could be holding two misdirections...

It doesn't matter, You must target him AND the Voidmage Prodigy with each Fire/ice, because if you choose one target he can misdirect it to you, but making two targets will prevent the misdirect from happening.

And you still win if it is one of each.  1 Fow will bring him to 1 and the other Fire/Ice will resolve killing him.

[Methuselahn]

Target the wizard and him with fire/ice twice.  He cant force them both and live.  Misdirection is out of the question.

Of course, If he is holding Daze, FoW, another blue card, and some other card then you are up shit creek as your math will go down the tubes for a gauranteed win

I don't see the gaurantee.  Enlighten me.  

[Tempe]

In Ultima's case, a misdirection will solve that problem.

If the opponet has two lands open, then I could find a counter to Pinky's solution: the opponent can sacrifice the voidmage prodigy in order to counter the first fire/ice. You then have 1 fire/ice, and in order to make it unmisdirectable, you have to target yourself as well. In that case, the 1 damage would not kill your opponent.

But as it stands, I believe Pinky's solution is correct. At least, I can not find a counter to it. I have to assume that you chose voidmage prodigy for a reason, however, so I will keep thinking about it. Or is it not supposed to be this complicated?

[Ultima]

That is true, I did not think about misdirection.

If that is the case, then you must cast both targeting both.

I stand corrected to misdirection.

[Pinky]

Target the wizard and him with fire/ice twice.  He cant force them both and live.  Misdirection is out of the question.

Of course, If he uses Daze on the first fire/ice then you will be forced to cast the second in response.  hopefully he wont have a force or Misdirection at this point.  You cant fire him for 2 on the first one due to the Misdirection fear.

I don't see the gaurantee.  Enlighten me.  

Good point, I forgot about Daze! I think the opponents best hand is : 2x Daze and 2x Misdirection. I don't see a solution that could beat this hand right now.

[TylerEss]

You win this turn by realizing you can't beat your opponent's optimal hand (2xDaze, Force, Mis'd) and if you don't win this turn, you're unlikely to win at all (you could pass the turn and try to give Kai the pink slip during your opponent's declare attackers, but then your opponent has yet another card and is untapped, both of which reduce you chances of success even further). Since you know you can't beat the optimal hand, you have to just test the waters and hope your opponent has a suboptimal hand. Remember that Misdirection can end the game right now, but don't get too fatalistic. Fire Kai and your opponent with a mountain and a Waste. Using multiple targets makes any Misdirections in his hand useless.

If your opponent counters it with Daze (or that pitch-a-blue-card-and-an-island monstrosity), respond by putting your whole second Fire into his dome. At this point if he's holding a Misdirection (and diddn't pitch down to only one) or another Daze, you're sunk, but if you don't put the whole thing into his dome, you'll almost certainly lose anyway.

If your opponent does not counter and Kai dies, or if they used another Force to counter your first Fire, your opponent is at one life. At this point only Daze can save them. Target your second Fire at yourself and your opponent, so as to not expose yourself to a Mis'd they might (or might not) be holding. When Fire resolves, you'll be at one and won't have an opponent.

If you don't live through this turn and Kai does, well, good game, partner. Sometimes you just have to lose in a given situation, but it doesn't (usually) do any good to assume you're in that situation.

[DavidHernandez]

Ok, good job everyone.

DB:
He is tapped out, but is playing Force of Will. He has 4 cards in hand and can Force both Fire/Ice that you cast to kill him, but if he does, he will go to 0 life as part of the alternate casting cost of FoW is to pay 1 life.

But he could be holding two misdirections...

It doesn't matter, You must target him AND the Voidmage Prodigy with each Fire/ice, because if you choose one target he can misdirect it to you, but making two targets will prevent the misdirect from happening.

And you still win if it is one of each. 1 Fow will bring him to 1 and the other Fire/Ice will resolve killing him.

This was what i was looking for. Others also stated it correctly, though differently.

Methuselahn:

Target the wizard and him with fire/ice twice. He cant force them both and live. Misdirection is out of the question.

Of course, If he is holding Daze, FoW, another blue card, and some other card then you are up shit creek as your math will go down the tubes for a gauranteed win

I don't see the gaurantee. Enlighten me.

If the opponent is holding Daze, you are not guaranteed a win.  I should have said that "you have 2 mountains and 3 wastelands", or used the term "what is your best play in order to have the best opportunity of winning on this turn".  

Except for Fever's and Gnu's Gay Fish lists in the archives in mid 2003 ( http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=11492&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15 ), i didn't see Daze as a regular card in the deck.  Since Gay/r is the current list being played (with Grim Lavamancers), Daze is not a card in the standard build.  Instead, 3 Stifles are run.  

TMD's LevelZero ran U/r and had Daze's (i think he ran 1 or 2 main deck, and dropped to 2 or 3 Conclave's from 4 in order to make the room). For the sake of the question, i should not have made that assumption.

With the advent of newer cards, perhaps Daze should be considered more seriously in Gay/r, since the deck's aggressive nature has a tendency to tap it out.  Still, the original question is very situational.

TylerEss restated the problem very well (see previous post) along with the solution, including the issue of Daze.

Anyway, the problem has been solved and the point has been made--make sure that you can recognize the deck you're playing against, and remember that some decks still run Misdirection.  Don't assume you have an automatic win if you're holding Fire/Ice and your opponent is at 2.  

Make the best play you can.

TMD member Razor PM'd me last night with the following actual tournament situation:

Fire both yourself and him, twice. Non-misdirectable. FoWX2 will make him dead.

Good problem.

Reminds me of when when I Hull Breached my own Choke and his Powder Keg or something versus Klown's Keeper in Feb.2003 at the NE Championship.

He was shocked but did show me the MisD he was holding.

Ray

Besides Daze, does anyone see any other way that the opponent could have survived the turn?

Note to Full TMD Members: thanks for holding back.  This kind of gives Basic Members an opportunity to show that they know what they're doing, and gives Site Admins/Mods a gauge for determining new full memberships.

Anyone and everyone still interested in posting comments about this question, it's solution, and other possible outcomes are invited to do so.

--Dave.

[DB]

Besides Daze, does anyone see any other way that the opponent could have survived the turn?

If we count other cards that aren't in the usual decklists, the opponent could let you target the voidmage and them, and when you go to cast the second Fire/Ice, a Foil would ruin your day.  An island, blue card and Foil could be 3 of the four.

[TylerEss]

He could Gush into something useful in response to the F/I, like into more blue cards to pitch to his pitch-an-island-and-a-blue-card card...

[SpencerForHire]

Umm. Am I the only one who sees that you lose no matter what?














Your running fire/ice in budget red, nothing was said about a blue splash, sounds like a poor choice of cards to me..
But yea, idealistically, say he has one FoW and one Misdirect.  You could cast the first thinking he has daze targeting the Voidmage and the player.. it gets forced.  Then cast the second targeting you and the other player. YOu drop to one, he cant misdirect..  With the luck your having, you'll topdeck your next fire/ice next run all and all the scenario is sorta scetchy, I think it was only in consideration of misdirect and FoW but in reality any number of possibilites could occur. Who knows.

[xrizzo]

It doesn't matter, You must target him AND the Voidmage Prodigy with each Fire/ice, because if you choose one target he can misdirect it to you, but making two targets will prevent the misdirect from happening.

Can't you target him and the Voidmage upon declaring the spell, then assign both damage to just the player upon resolution?

I remember reading this somewhere... can anyone confirm or deny?

Thanks.

[DavidHernandez]

Gimbles:
Fire/Ice is not a bad choice in a budget Stacker deck as a sideboard choice, especially against Fish, Sligh, and other misc. weenie decks (not to mention DoJ Soldier Tokens).  In fact, i run it as a sideboard card in my POWERED stacker because it's so strong (i dont run Scepters).

You don't have to cast the blue half of the spell, and the ability to split the damage can get you around Misdirection, as shown here.

Also, more and more decks are including Isochron Scepters, and it's conceivable that a good design will result in a Red/Artifact build that runs Fire/Ice, Lightning Bolt, Juggernaut, Isochron Scepter.  Then you could cast both sides of Fire/Ice with colorless mana.

In this situation, i don't understand why you are the 'only one who sees that you lose no matter what'.  What do you mean?

@xrizzo:
that's interesting.  I have not heard that.  Maybe MattTheGreat or another Rules expert can shed some light on that.

Dave.

[Hi-Val]

It doesn't matter, You must target him AND the Voidmage Prodigy with each Fire/ice, because if you choose one target he can misdirect it to you, but making two targets will prevent the misdirect from happening.

Can't you target him and the Voidmage upon declaring the spell, then assign both damage to just the player upon resolution?

I remember reading this somewhere... can anyone confirm or deny?

Thanks.

I was just about to post that. The oracle text says you can target 1 or 2 targets. You can also assign up to 2 damage to one target and 0 to the other. They never get MisD'ed that way.

It is a logical interpretation of the card. If there is a contrary ruling, I cede to it, obviously.

[Toad]

No you can't. When you have to divide damage among multiple targets, you must assign at least one damage to each target.

See [card]Pyrotechnics[/card] for the ruling.

Or the Oracle:

*  G4.13a - If a spell or ability requires a player to divide something as he or she chooses (such as damage or counters) among one or more targets, or any number of untargeted objects or players, each of these targets, objects, or players must receive at least one of whatever is being divided.

[Hi-Val]

I stand corrected, Toad. I was thinking that I should look for the ruling on cards like Pyrotechnics, but none instantly came to mind. Thanks.

[virtual]

Xrizzo is talking about the old [card]contagion[/card] trick to avoid [card]misdirection[/card].  I guess it doesn't work when dividing damage, but it does work when using contagion because of the wording.  At least it used to work with contagion.  Why is it that you can distribute 0 counters, but not 0 damage.

[Jacob Orlove]

Why is it that you can distribute 0 counters, but not 0 damage.

Read Toad's oracle quote. It doesn't work with counters either; it may be that it used to, but that seems unlikely, since Masques was a post-6th set. Maybe you mean avoiding Deflection, in which case older rules may indeed have applied. In any case, they no longer do.