3cb #26 Tournament Results and Discussion

[virtual]

"I would like to congratulate wonkey_donkey as the winner of the 26th 3cb tournament!  

On another note, we have our first ever all-draw entrant.  Misemaster gets the door prize for his entry which doesn't lose or win ever.  Many others have missed it by one, he is the first.  It shall henceforth be dubbed the mise-prize.  Congrats.  


Entrants:
1 Virtual   -   Nice Rack   -   Ensnaring Bridge   -   Mercadian Bazaar   -   Rackling
2 jhaverkamp   -   Self-Immolation.dec   -   Mishra's Factory   -   City of Traitors   -   Torture Chamber
3 Matt   -   None   -   Darksteel Colossus   -   Copper Gnomes   -   Mercadian Bazaar
4 Dream Merchant   -   Cloudkill   -   Cloudpost   -   Cloudpost   -   Phyrexian Processor
5 xrizzo   -   Eat this.dec   -   Mishra's Workshop   -   Sol Ring   -   Eater of Days
6 Tha Gunslinga   -   I hate the new face, but like smashing face   -   City of Traitors   -   Sol Ring   -   Eater of Days
7 kakeboy07   -   I h0p3 /\/\| d00ds \/\/ | /\/ +}{|5 +0|_|R/\/3Y.dec    -   Relic Barrier   -   City of Traitors   -   Mishra's Factory
8 Togran   -   Serpents!!!!!   -   Mercadian Bazaar    -   Crumbling Sanctuary   -   Serpent Generator
9  LotusHead   -   EaterOfLotus.dec   -   Black Lotus   -   Black Lotus   -   Eater of Days
10 wonkey_donkey   -   Ihopeeveryone'splayingtabernacle.dec   -   Black Lotus   -   Rackling   -   Strip Mine
11 MiseMaster   -   Sculpting Wheel   -   Scuplting Steel   -   Mishra's Workshop   -   Wheel of Torture
12 Stijn   -   Cloning Steel   -   Scuplting Steel   -   Sculpting Steel   -   Mishra's Workshop
13 Kowal   -   Soooooooo bad!   -   Eater of Days   -   Saprazzan Cove   -   Saprazzan Cove
14 r_x_   -   none   -   Mishra's workshop   -   Ensnaring bridge   -   Scalding Tongs
15 wicketsnatcher   -   ControlDoesn'tWin   -   Mishra's workshop   -   Ensnaring bridge   -   Scalding Tongs
16 TimeBeing   -   Legands_ruled.dec   -   The tablernacle at Pendrel Vale   -   Chimeric Idol   -   Mishra's Workshop

-   2   6   6   6   6   6   2   6   0   2   2   6   6   6   6   68
2   -   0   0   0   0   0   2   0   0   2   6   0   0   0   2   14
0   6   -   0   0   0   0   2   0   0   2   2   3   0   0   0   15
0   6   6   -   0   3   6   4   0   0   2   6   6   0   0   6   45
0   6   6   3   -   2   0   6   2   6   2   2   2   0   0   6   43
0   6   6   0   2   -   0   1   2   0   2   2   2   0   0   6   29
0   6   6   0   6   6   -   2   6   0   2   6   6   0   0   6   52
2   2   2   1   0   1   2   -   0   0   2   2   2   2   2   6   26
0   6   6   3   2   2   0   6   -   6   2   2   2   0   0   0   37
6   6   6   6   0   6   6   6   0   -   2   2   6   6   6   6   70
2   2   2   2   2   2   2   2   2   2   -   2   2   2   2   2   30
2   0   2   0   2   2   0   2   2   2   2   -   2   2   2   2   24
0   6   3   0   2   2   0   2   2   0   2   2   -   0   0   6   27
0   6   6   6   6   6   6   2   6   0   2   2   6   -   3   6   63
0   6   6   6   6   6   6   2   6   0   2   2   6   3   -   6   63
0   2   6   0   0   0   0   2   6   0   2   2   0   0   0   -   20

How to read the table:
Match the deck# on the left with the deck # on top. Append a 1 for the last 5 decks. The #s on the right of that deck correspond to how many points that deck received versus the deck on top. (Once again append a 1 for the last 5. The 1's are missing to make the table more clear)

Standing Name Points
1 wonkey_donkey   70
2 Virtual   68
3 r_x_   63
  wicketsnatcher   63
4 kakeboy07   52
5 Dream Merchant   45
6 xrizzo   43
7 LotusHead   37
8 MiseMaster   30
9 Tha Gunslinga   29
10 Kowal   27
11 Togran   26
12 Stijn   24
13 TimeBeing   20
14 Matt   15
15 jhaverkamp   14

Please check your own results, and post any discrepancies. It's easy to foul up the tables. Thanks for playing. Hopefully we'll be starting our next 3cb fairly shortly. Congrats all.

Some discussion:
   I didn't see the eater decks coming at all.  I thought that there were going to be 3 decks to beat this time:  Bridge tongs, Tabernacle (I expected more of),and Dual Beatdown (steel golem, beast)

Bridge splits with tabernacle.  Beatdown loses to tabernacle (depending if they play workshop or not), and beatdown loses to bridge.  

Bridge's normat threat can't race the sheltered valley, so I went to find another.  If I was going to play a critter, I needed to have mana to keep him alive against a tabernacle, so I figured that a storage land could give me that, and the 3 mana I wanted for the bridge.  

I think that wonkey_donkey's deck is stronger than mine in general, he drops his rackling and makes sure you can only drop 1 large threat, or 2 small ones.  Unfortunately for him, since eater decks dominated, and his rackling doesn't hurt them when they skip their turns, the metagame was better for my deck... after a few edits he managed to pass me. Congrats wonkey.

Thats how I tackled it.  Anyways, post your discussion etc here.

What should be play next?  I think this format is just about done.  Maybe once more, but what goes?  Rackling? Tabernacle? Workshop? Eater?

Thanks for playing.  Discuss/enjoy.

[Togran]

Hey, i'm quite dissapointed i didn't ask if Darksteel was legal.  I coulda busted out the darksteel reactor.  Also could you please check some of my results.  I believe I draw with any Bridge deck.  They drop Bridge, I drop Sanctuary, nobody dies.  

I certainly was impressed with how well the serpents did.  Glad there weren't many powder kegs.

[Dream_Merchant]

well done Virtual ..twice.. for organising and for winning
didnt know darksteel was legal..neither the lotus lotus tech

( i still think those cloudposts should have come into play untapped.. horrible lands .. even in this format )

hm.. should have gone with ancient tomb and city of traitors

[LotusHead]

I used the Lotus Lotus tech because I was under the impression that anything goes as long as it's not banned.

Why I used two lotus's to play a 4cc Eater, I will never know.

Anyways, LotusHead 3CB decks are movin' up the field!  

EaterOfLotus.dec[revised]: Black Lotus, Sol Ring, Eater of Days.
It's still BridgeBait, but hey.

[Stijn]

For each win, you score 3.
For each draw, you score 1.
For each lose, you get nothing.

My deck has drawn almost every game in this 3cb. How can i ever lose to Eater.dec? They drop eater, i play workshop, Sculpting steel, get the eater. He can attack me once, I dont block. Next turn i drop another steel for another eater, and start attacking with one. He has to block, or he will be killed. When he blocks , my other eater will swing in for the kill.

Please correct me if i`m wrong.

[Stijn]

Argh, that always happens to me. I think 15 minutes about this question , post it , and suddenly know the answer.  

They could just do nothing.

Sometimes i hate myself

[wonkey_donkey]

Yeah, the eater decks were a bit of a pain in the er... neck. I thought that everyone would be playing tabernacle or bridge (or maybe storage lands), in which case my deck's pretty strong. The presence of strip mine meant that I could at least draw with most things, which helped. I think I would have won had the darksteel stuff not been legal, but no matter, 2nd place isn't too shabby. I think this format was much more open than the last one, as anvil-rack and leveler were just too good.

Some decks that I was considering playing were:
1. Necrogen spellbomb, Black Lotus, Straw Golem
2. Sphere of Resistance, Mishra's Workshop, Straw Golem
3. Soldevi Sentry, Powder Keg, City of Traitors
And then tabernbacle.dec in some form.

1 was quite tempting, but I could see I was going to split with almost everything (except eater). 2 wasn't strong enough against tabernacle, which I thought was going to be everywhere after the previous tournament, in which it nearly won. Thorme's deck from last time, deck 3, seemed to draw with everything, although it beats eater.dec (which I hadn't expected). Keg.dec would have been interesting, too.

I think this format's just about run its course. How about we do something like "all card names have to start with a vowel," or something like that? although that may be slightly unfair on non-english-speaking people, come to think of it. Maybe we could go back to having a longish banned list for a tournament, although not as bad as the old one that inspired the change to different formats. Another option would be to do an extended 3CB, where all cards in T1.X are legal with exceptions being blackmail, cabal therapy, chain of smog, mesmeric fiend, wasteland, mind swords, wheel of torture, meddling mage, isochron scepter, raze, sea's claim, and show and tell. Other worthy additions may include wrench mind, leveler, words of wilding, and possibly a few others. This may be leading us back on the path to the old banned list, though. How about an all-land format, banning wasteland, strip mine and mishra's factory? True, there are only a certain number of viable decks, but hey, would be reasonably interesting, I think. Maybe a format where you are allowed 1 artifact and no lands in your deck, or something.

If anyone else has any ideas, throwing them around a bit in here would be good.

big thankyou to virtual for doing the calculations, too.

tom

[Matt]

Heh, I'm totally awful at this format and getting worse.

[Dream_Merchant]

I also thought of necrogen spellbomb but I misuderstood the rules so I didn't use it

However I would like to forward my misunderstanding as a rules suggestion, that cards with colored mana symbols in them should not be allowed. ( this will hit the necrogen spellbomb which even though sometimes worse then the anvil, I think breaks the game ). Note that this doesnt touch the storage lands.

Eater of Days is not as horrible as Leveler which is 5 mana 10/10 with no drawback, the flying being marginal. I dont understand why Dreadnought and Leveler are banned and Eater is not though.

Lotus Lotus tech was cool, I would concede to the awesomness of it

[Togran]

I have a few considerations about the results.  First is the deck I submitted is truly and utterly crap.  After looking over the results you posted and pondering some of my score I finally realized that Serpents deal no damage with crumbling sanctuary out.  So I basically draw everygame, except against eater decks, they smash me.  

Also on your table, I'm confused about some of the scores.  I haven't focused on the entire table mostly at my own of course... but heres what I am confused about...

- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6
1 - 2 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 0 2 2 6 6 6 6 72
8 2 2 6 1 0 3 6 - 0 0 6 6 6 2 2 6 48
4 0 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 0 2 2 6 - 3 6 67
5 0 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 0 2 2 6 3 - 6 67


I believe if we draw, we would both get 2 points for the draw, instead of one of us winning.  



Just for speculation purposes, I crunched my deck through the gauntlet with Darksteel Reactor, since serpent generator is not a combo with sanctuary.  And here are the results.

- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6
1 - 2 6 6 6 6 6 0 6 0 2 2 6 6 6 6 66
2 0 - 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 6 0 0 0 2 10
3 0 6 - 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 2 3 0 0 0 13
4 0 6 6 - 0 3 6 6 0 0 2 6 6 0 0 6 47
5 0 6 6 3 - 2 0 6 2 6 2 2 2 0 0 6 43
6 0 6 6 0 2 - 0 3 2 0 2 2 2 0 0 6 31
7 0 6 6 0 6 6 - 0 6 0 2 6 6 0 0 6 50
8 6 6 6 0 0 3 6 - 0 0 6 6 6 6 6 6 63
9 0 6 6 3 2 2 0 6 - 6 2 2 2 0 0 0 37
0 6 6 6 6 0 6 6 6 0 - 2 2 6 6 6 6 70
1 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 0 2 2 - 2 2 2 2 2 28
2 2 0 2 0 2 2 0 0 2 2 2 - 2 2 2 2 22
3 0 6 3 0 2 2 0 0 2 0 2 2 - 0 0 6 25
4 0 6 6 6 6 6 6 0 6 0 2 2 6 - 3 6 61
5 0 6 6 6 6 6 6 0 6 0 2 2 6 3 - 6 61
6 0 2 6 0 0 0 0 0 6 0 2 2 0 0 0 - 18

That would give Wonkey the win with 70.
Virtual in 2nd with 66.
Togran in 3rd with 63.  

Please tell me if I totally screwed up this chart.  I was mostly just curious to see as how a Darksteel reactor deck would do.  Obviously I'm an utter moron for submitting a combo deck that doesn't work.  Though poison counters is all I could think of as a kill method around Sanctuary.
Very fun tournament.  I hope to be able to participate in the next ones by NOT submitting a self-destructing combo.

[wonkey_donkey]

grrr....... thanks togran, so it's all your fault I didn't win...   jk.

will have a look at the table in a bit, have some more work to do on tortoise first  :lol: .

tom

[virtual]

"As I said, it's pretty easy to screw up the table.  Keeping all the rows straight as well as getting all of the matches correct is tricky.  I'll take a look at it tomorrow or the day after, as I'm slightly busy, and I'll attempt to fix it.  
-Virtual

[jhaverkamp]

I should draw both games with virtual as i can kill his rackling with my torture chamber and then just ping the factory for 1 a turn to avoid torture chamber death.

[virtual]

There has been a change in winners due to code edits.  Please note that, and congratulations wonkey_donkey.  =).  

What format do people want next.  Please give me some feedback below.

[Misemaster]

Mise! I drew every game.   My deck sucked but hey at least something good came out of it. I got a freakin prize named after me!

[Jacob Orlove]

Mise! I drew every game.  :P My deck sucked but hey at least something good came out of it. I got a freakin prize named after me!

Yeah, I should have realized that the only way to draw is to force your opponent to play nothing. =)

[Matt]

There has been a change in winners due to code edits.  Please note that, and congratulations wonkey_donkey.  =).  

What format do people want next.  Please give me some feedback below.

How about "no spells of converted mana cost less than four"?

[wonkey_donkey]

Woohoo, go me!     ... sorry. I'm really not a bad winner.

Nice one misemaster, though, a worthy prize-winner! I spose the $64000 question is "was that what you were trying to do?"  

Rather than go with a 4-mana+ thing, would "trinisphere starts in play" be any good? just a thought, seems quite interesting... I mentioned some ideas below in a previous post, too, comments would be good.

tom

[LotusHead]

How about Colored Mana producing lands, and any artifactsl.  No spells with colored mana in its casting cost. :lol:

[Misemaster]

Is that what I was trying to do absolutly not. lol I just really suck at 3cb have no sense of what the metagame will be and put in a deck for fun. Just so happened to be super draw.dec this time.

[virtual]

I think the key thing for you to do next time then, is make sure that you can force a win.  That's a big hint, as it's not always the first thing that you can see that your deck must react to something they do, in order to win.  

Hmmm.  


Ok, how about this for a format:  

Trinisphere and Upwelling are in play.  Lands cannot be the target of spells or effects.  

Thoughts?
-Virtual

[Matt]

Well you're just asking for Workshop to own up.

[Jacob Orlove]

Well you're just asking for Workshop to own up.

That or some kind of Factory/Tabernacle/sheltered valley silliness.

[xrizzo]

Well you're just asking for Workshop to own up.

...and ban workshop.

[virtual]

"Ok, here's the ammended proposal:

Upwelling + Trinisphere start in play:

Banned list:
   Mishra's Workshop
   Mishra's Factory
   The Rack
   Wheel of Torture
   Rackling
   Spells/Effects that make your opponent's discard cards
   Spells/Effects that target your oppnent's lands

Note:
   Avalanche riders would be legal, their CIP would just be god-stifled.  

Are dreadnaught, leveler, and eater going to be too big for this format?

-Virtual

[wonkey_donkey]

Do the cards start in play, or do their effects just apply? For example, I was thinking of using karn as a kill card - could I animate the 3sphere? Essentially the question is - does anyone own the cards? If so, is it a neutral 3rd player that starts with no deck? This seems like the best solution.

Regarding the banned list, should any other man-lands be on there? Specifically treetop village and faerie conclave. However, I don't think that the creatures should be on the list with the full spectrum of removal available - even something like darksteel colosseus is perfectly removable using STP. I think there's a card that's going to be in my deck that might be better off banned, but let's see what happens first  

thanks,
tom

[Dream_Merchant]

well sounds like a nice idea, i have a deck ready
from what i figure its three cards in each players hand like before and they are revealed
robot plays
there is a third player who has upwelling and trinisphere ( untouchable things )
lands can't be the target of spells or abilities

[TimeBeing]

don't forget to ban unglued or is it legal?

[Jacob Orlove]

don't forget to ban unglued or is it legal?

Unglued allows for horrid degeneracy and rules complications. It should be banned by default.