"Darksteel" Colossus

[Astro]

I was checking out Darksteel Colossus in the spoiler and couldn't help but notice its synergy with Tinker.  It looked to possibly have some potential, so I put together a rough draft.  I've chosen to run Show and Tell as the alternate means of getting him on the table.  So far I've been averaging 3rd and 4th turn kills and seems to run a bit like Mask.

Does this have some potential, or does it look like a pile?  Comments and suggestions are welcome.  What are it's strengths and weaknesses, and how do you feel about Show and Tell overall?  Heres the rough draft:


Meat: 4
4x Darksteel Colossus

Potatoes: 5
4x Show and Tell
1x Tinker

Finishers: 3
3 Berserk

Search/Draw: 15
4x Lim Dul's Vault
4x Spoils of the Vault
2x Intuition
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Demonic tutor
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Time Walk

Disruption: 8
4x Duress
4x Xantid Swarm

Mana: 25
1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Ruby
1x Sol Ring
1x Mana Crypt
1x Lotus Pedal
4x Polluted Delta
4x Underground Sea
4x Tropical Island
4x Island

[virtual]

I was testing out a build that was similar to yours.  I had a bit less search, and I included force of wills.  A single swords to plowshares can really stall out the deck, and usually can give the opponent enough time to recover + finish you off.

Unlike mask, 1/2 of this combo doesn't stay in play, so a fast recovery is not always easy.  

I even wanted to try to fit misdirections in, but I couldn't find room.

The resiliancy of the colossus is incredible.  Lots of decks extend the hand when he shows up.  

I think you mean tropical islands, not volcanics, right?  

Xantid swarms should maybe be sided, and come in against control.  If they aren't going to be countering your colossus, there's no reason that the xantids help you.  Any destruction that they are packing can be cast either during their turn (colossus has to sit in play), or before your attack phase.   Unfortunately they are not a combo with show and tell.  

Unfortunately I think this deck is somewhat of a one-trick pony.  It may be able to be made competative, but it needs more work.  

If you choose to go the control route, maybe mana drains could help you actually hard-cast the colossus as well.  He's probably still too fat to make that plausible.  

-Virtual

[Astro]

I was testing out a build that was similar to yours.  I had a bit less search, and I included force of wills.  A single swords to plowshares can really stall out the deck, and usually can give the opponent enough time to recover + finish you off.

Unlike mask, 1/2 of this combo doesn't stay in play, so a fast recovery is not always easy.  

I even wanted to try to fit misdirections in, but I couldn't find room.

The resiliancy of the colossus is incredible.  Lots of decks extend the hand when he shows up.  

I think you mean tropical islands, not volcanics, right?  

Xantid swarms should maybe be sided, and come in against control.  If they aren't going to be countering your colossus, there's no reason that the xantids help you.  Any destruction that they are packing can be cast either during their turn (colossus has to sit in play), or before your attack phase.   Unfortunately they are not a combo with show and tell.  

Unfortunately I think this deck is somewhat of a one-trick pony.  It may be able to be made competative, but it needs more work.  

If you choose to go the control route, maybe mana drains could help you actually hard-cast the colossus as well.  He's probably still too fat to make that plausible.  

-Virtual

I did consider FoW over Xantid, but like Dragon I felt there were too few blue spells to back them up, but they still might make the cut.  Like I said it's just a rough draft that I came up with this morning.  I've had limited solo testing on Apprentice so it definately needs some work.  Were you also running Show and Tell?

[urza_insane]

Oath of Druids seems to be the excepted way of getting this guy into play. But the decks does look cool.

[virtual]

I was running Show and Tell.

Oath is a very possible way of getting him into play.  Perhaps the oaths should be maindecked and sided out for xantids in the control matchup.  If that were the case, the mana base could stay the same.  

How well are the duresses working out for you?  I might think that force of will could sit in their place, but that generates card disadvantage for you.  Both Force of Will and duress can stop a counter, but Force gives card disadvantage.  Duress cannot stop a topdecked swords, but Force of Will can.  

I also was not running berserk.  The colossus already tramples.  Granted, it turns the deck into a single turn kill, but at that point, you've already won.  Berserk is a win-more.  I think you're better off running more protection to secure your "combo".  

I suggest the following changes:  
-3 Berserk -1 Duress
+4 Force of Will

-4 Xantid Swarm  (Move them to the sideboard, current meta is aggro heavy)
+4 Oath of Druids

My build had no green whatsoever.  I think that the Xantids are a nice sideboard card, and that the oath might prove to be great, but that the berserks are just overkill.

Depending on your metagame, you could run brainstorms instead of the Oaths+Xantids.  That would allow you to take out green entirely, or perhaps just leave each of them in your sideboard.  

I would still like to fit in some misdirections.  How well is Intuition working out for you?  Also, I'm not sold on the lotus-petal as a main part of the mana base.  If you aren't really going to be winning on turn 1 or 2, you may want a more permanent mana source.  

I'm going to apprentice this version up, and give it a try.  I'll let you know what I think with these changes.

[Astro]

Oath is a very possible way of getting him into play.  Perhaps the oaths should be maindecked and sided out for xantids in the control matchup.  If that were the case, the mana base could stay the same.

As of right now I'm not a huge Oath fan, as they are conditional and I'm already not having troubles getting Colossus on the table.  If I were to include them I'd probably would cut a search card rather than disruption as they essentially are search.  Definately worth play testing though.

How well are the duresses working out for you?  I might think that force of will could sit in their place, but that generates card disadvantage for you.  Both Force of Will and duress can stop a counter, but Force gives card disadvantage.  Duress cannot stop a topdecked swords, but Force of Will can.  

Duress is working decent for me, however if you feel FoW or Misdirection is the worth play testing then go for it.   Like I said before I don't feel there are enough main decked blue spells to support them.  Either way a top decked Swords needs addressing.

I also was not running berserk.  The colossus already tramples.  Granted, it turns the deck into a single turn kill, but at that point, you've already won.  Berserk is a win-more.  I think you're better off running more protection to secure your "combo".  

Berserk has been working great, infact so far I like them so much I have considered adding a 4th.  These are what have been allowing me 3rd turn kills.  They also make second turn kills possible, and partially address your opponent  top decking threats such as swords as they won't be sticking around for another turn in which to draw one.  Anyway, so far they've been working rather nice.  However, I'm a combo player at heart so I generally have a linear thought pattern when it comes deck building.  So more controlish aspects might be necessary, I'd like to see and play test your list.

How well is Intuition working out for you?  Also, I'm not sold on the lotus-petal as a main part of the mana base.  If you aren't really going to be winning on turn 1 or 2, you may want a more permanent mana source.

Intuition hasn't been all that great, this is a slot that could definately use some work.  Lotus Pedal doesn't suck, but it too could probably be cut.  It does however sac nicely to Tinker (even if you don't get to use if first).

I'm going to apprentice this version up, and give it a try.  I'll let you know what I think with these changes.

Give me your list when finished so I can play test it.  Also, play test the list I'm running so you can see what I'm talking about with Berserk.  Also, I'm considering cutting some of the search from my current list and possibly adding additional creature threats such as Negator.

[FireFall26]

Lightning greaves may not be bad, hasting it.

[Matt]

I've been working on similar decks, and while I don't want to give away the whole shebang, I might ask you if you really need Spoils. If you're going to go the full-on, 100% combo route (implying the suicide tutors), how is this better than Mask?

It seems to me that if this is going to be better than Mask you need to pick some area in which to make this better, and you're not going to out-speed Mask decks, so I stopped trying (actually, I never tried in the first place, but that's neither here nor there) for the ultra-speed kills that Spoils requires (any slower and Spoils is too painful).

[Astro]

I've been working on similar decks, and while I don't want to give away the whole shebang, I might ask you if you really need Spoils.

They might not be necessary, I'm still testing them now.  So far they've killed me once and other times they've brought my life low enough that my opponent could easily have killed me with burn ect...  I'm still sort of up in the air with them right now, but they've been quite helpful in the right situation.  Your right though, if I use them and don't kill my opponent  within the next turn or so I'm screwed.

If you're going to go the full-on, 100% combo route (implying the suicide tutors), how is this better than Mask?

This is just a rough draft of something that might have some potential, but good point.  It probably isn't better than Mask, but it might have potential to be better.  It's at least worth testing.  For starters Colossus is not as suseptible to basic removal spells.  Getting "set back" is not as likely as he is not suseptible to Naturalize, Disenchant, Disk, Deed, ect...   Another thing worth mentioning is that he hits the table with only one card, Tinker.   If I don't draw it first turn I'll have probably drawn either a Mystical, Vampiric, Demonic, or Lim Dul's Vault in which to get it by the next turn.  Thats how it's been playing for me anyhow.

[Zharradan]

The problem with Oath is that your opponent needs to have a creature out before it starts working ... and if your opponent has a creature out, it's likely that you've already lost.

[Astro]

The problem with Oath is that your opponent needs to have a creature out before it starts working ... and if your opponent has a creature out, it's likely that you've already lost.

Precisely, like I said it's rather conditional.  Thats why I'm not a huge fan of it, however it might deserve a place in the sb.  Have to do some testing.

[SpencerForHire]

In our build, we run man-land.  No xantids, instead of show and tell, we use proteus staff.  First three turns we have one out almost every game.  Ridiculous..

[Pern]

Lightning Greaves not just for the haste,
but for the Swords-proofing.

Against Swordsless aggro, Diamond Valley/Oath.
EOT gain 11, look, he's back.

[Rico Suave]

Lightning Greaves doesn't protect from StP, since they can StP in response to it's equipping ability.

Proteus Staff?  That's...really unstable.

Why are you running Berserk?  Mask builds don't use it either, for the same reason you shouldn't.

[ELD]

I believe it is folly to run cards like grieves, berserk and anything else that's useless unless the Collosus is in play.  If getting him into play wins the game, then it's just overkill.  If getting him into play doesn't win, then why all the trouble just to put out a creature.  All that I see happening is drawing cards like berserk and saying something stranglely close to "just wait till I draw my leviathian."  

Just a thought- with swords, balance, edicts, chain of vapor etc... removing him, just how indestructable is he.  Well this was my first post to the new MD, it's good to see things up an running again.  

Peace,
Eric
ELD

[Astro]

Lightning Greaves doesn't protect from StP, since they can StP in response to it's equipping ability.

Proteus Staff?  That's...really unstable.

Why are you running Berserk?  Mask builds don't use it either, for the same reason you shouldn't.

Berserk allows me the 2nd and 3rd turn kills.  As to why basic Mask decks don't run it, I'm not sure.  Personally, I do in my Mask build and I like them.  I have however been testing a U/B build that runs 12 or so counters in place of the basic disruption and search, it operates much more like Hulk.  With the loss of Berserk I don't get consistant 3rd and 4th turn kills, but I feel it's much more resilient to control.  Basically, I just need more time testing it.  I've barely cracked the surface as to testing it to most everything in the field.  I'll post my new build here shortly, anyway I appreciate the reply.

[Dream_Merchant]

I was checking out Darksteel Colossus in the spoiler and couldn't help but notice its synergy with Tinker.

I personaly dont understand the synergy here. Are you intending on hard casting colossus or putting him in play with show and tell so you can tinker it to get a lightning greaves? Hmm.. obvious tech here, the colossus will go back in the library so you wont get decked if you have 7 cards in your hand and its the last card in your library and you draw and discard it. Yes..very much synergy. I see the wisdom.

whats the next piece of synergy.. forest llanowar elf?
let me work on that deck as well

[Astro]

I was checking out Darksteel Colossus in the spoiler and couldn't help but notice its synergy with Tinker.

I personaly dont understand the synergy here. Are you intending on hard casting colossus or putting him in play with show and tell so you can tinker it to get a lightning greaves? Hmm.. obvious tech here, the colossus will go back in the library so you wont get decked if you have 7 cards in your hand and its the last card in your library and you draw and discard it. Yes..very much synergy. I see the wisdom.

whats the next piece of synergy.. forest llanowar elf?
let me work on that deck as well

Uhh, the synergy would be a first or second turn Colossus via:  Tinker - sac a Mox - Colossus.  Or you can Show and Tell him into play.  Not too complicated.  Lightning Greaves isn't even in the list!

[virtual]

"I played quite a few times with my version of this list.  After testing, I think that proteus staff may prove stronger.  Also, I'm not impressed with the spoils.  I playtested quite a number against keeper.  Even with 4 duress, 4 misdirection, 4 force of will, they just have too many ways to deal with you.  Brainstorm lets them put swords on top of their library, and they run more draw than you do, so they usually have more counters.  Tinker is a house, along with xantid swarm, because it gives your spell protection, and tinker is the sole card you need.  This deck needs to have the colossus in hand when it resolves the show and tell.  Mask can just force the mask through before they draw into more counters, and then put dreadnaughts right into play.   Proteus staff could allow that ability the same way, but it would require a total-revamping of the list you have posted.  I'll test a bit more, but I'm not sure this can really become tier 1.

-Virtual

[takuman]

hi,this is my version for this deck.

Meat: 4
4x Darksteel Colossus

Potatoes: 8
4x Show and Tell
1x Tinker
3x Oath of the druids

Finishers:3
3 Berserk

Search/Draw:  15
3x Lim Dul's Vault
4x braintorm
1x demonic consultation
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Demonic tutor
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Time Walk
1x time twister
1x fact or fiction

Disruption: 8
4x Duress
4x force of will

Mana: 22
1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Ruby
1x Sol Ring
4x Polluted Delta
4x Underground Sea
4x Tropical Island
3x Island

for kill frist turn is very difficult but possible

topical+lotus+mox+berserk+colosuss+time walk+show and tell

[Rico Suave]

Berserk allows me the 2nd and 3rd turn kills.  As to why basic Mask decks don't run it, I'm not sure.  Personally, I do in my Mask build and I like them.  I have however been testing a U/B build that runs 12 or so counters in place of the basic disruption and search, it operates much more like Hulk.  With the loss of Berserk I don't get consistant 3rd and 4th turn kills, but I feel it's much more resilient to control.

Actually, it's more resilient to everything, not just control.

By adding Berserk, you are suggesting that by using it, you will outrace your problems.  This brings up two things:
1) You still won't outrace combo, even with Berserk.  Belcher/Long and even Dragon still outrace you.
2) You outrace aggro even without Berserk.

So what is Berserk really doing?  

Same thing with Mask, once you have a 12/12 on the board you don't need anything else.  Just let the 12/12 do it's job.  

In other words, you could replace the Berserks with disruption/search/whatever to help get it on the board in the first place.  That way you won't be dead in the water if you are disrupted.

[Astro]

@ Virtual,
I'm not a fan of Proteus Staff at all, but if you feel it needs to be tested go for it.  I'd just rather stick with Show and Tell for now.  Good point with Spoils, the more I play test it the less I like it.  For the record I'm not even testing them any more.  

@ Rico,
I see your point with Berserk.  I'm going to actually cut green all together and take your advice by using the Berserk slots for more disruption.  

Speaking of which, how do you guys feel about Daze?  I'm currently testing a disruption base that looks like:

4x Duress
4x FoW
3x Misdirection
2x Daze

[Vood]

Oath of druids are mostly useless against combo and control since they are unlikely to have any creatures in play.

I would stick with show and tell and maybe replace the Oaths by Proteus Staff.  The staff could be used against mishra's or the new blinkmoth.

what if we pack both mask/naught and showtell/colossus into one single deck? Could be a fun deck

[Jawman16]

Instead of playing with Berserk.  Why not run Lighthing Greaves??  It basically serves the same purpose and protects your guy from STP.  I am from the thought that Show and Tell is a dangerous card.  I have tested this deck a little and Show and Tell is just a problem waiting to happen.  I have had had Yawgmoth's Bargain, Necropotence, Moat dropped on me when I played a first turn Collossus.  Proteus Staff or Oath seems to be the way to go.  Both are safer choices.

[Pern]

Lightning Greaves doesn't protect from StP, since they can StP in response to it's equipping ability.

It does if you're in your second main phase after a Xantid swing,
which is one way you manage to cast Tinker or Show and Tell.
It also means that Xantid can swing now,
instead of waiting until next turn.

I'm suggesting the Greaves on the side against anything packing white.

Show and Telling their Moat is pretty funny.

How does the Oath build protect the Colossus?

[Dream_Merchant]

hmm yes i see now, thank you for pointing it out.  I see, so one needs to play tinker on a mox to get darksteel colossus in play. cool..much synergy, question is, why darksteel colossus? .. lightning greaves is nicer, at least i think so, works with other creatures too

on a similar note i am making great progress on my forest llanowar elf synergy deck. i figured out that not only i can use the forest to cast a llanowar elf but on the next turn i can use both the forest and the llanowar elf from the first turn to cast two MORE llanowar elves
i have great experience in this and i get the feeling it will work again

on a side note: if running oath, why not run akroma?

[Astro]

on a side note: if running oath, why not run akroma?

I'm not running Oath.

[LotusHead]

I know Channel sees almost ZERO play, but could it help your deck?

[Astro]

I know Channel sees almost ZERO play, but could it help your deck?

Channel is interesting, however the GG could be a bit hard to come up with.  Also the loss of life would be extremely dangerous against aggro match ups.  I guess it's worth testing though.  The thing is, I'm not even running green anymore.  Right now I'm sticking with more of a U/B aggro control build.  I'll probably post the list tomorrow.

[DURESSTHIS]

WHY NOT RUN HIM IN SNEEK ATTACK.
Let's fix the grammatical errors here.  First off, that's a 'Why not run him in Sneak Attack?'[/b]

CREATURES.
2 CREATURE HELLOIN            Crater Hellion
2 FALSE PROFIETS                 False Prophet
4 WETHERSEED TREEFOLK      Weatherseed Treefolk
4  ACADMEY REACTORS         Academy Rector
4 COLLOUS                           Darksteel Colossus
4 SERRA AVATARS                Serra Avatar


ENCHANTMENTS Oh My God!  A properly spelled word![/b]
2 GREATER GOOD                 Greater Good
4 SNEEK ATTACK                   Sneak Attack

ARTIFACTS
4 MOX DIMONDS                   Mox Diamond

INSTANTS
4 SEETHNG SONG                  Seething Song


LANDS
4 BATLEFORGE                       Battlefield Forge (?)
4 CITY OF TRAITORS              City of Traitors
4 CRYSTAL VEINS                   Crystal Vein
10 MOUNTAINS                      Mountain


SIDE BORE                             Sideboard
4 SCION OF DARKNESS           Scion of Darkness
4 LIVING HIVES                      Living Hive
4 SYBIATIC WORMS                Symbiotic Wurm
2 ACHROMA ANGEL OF WRATH Akroma, Angel of Wrath


WE ALSO THOUGHT ABOUT THE FURNACE DRAGON SIDE BOARD BUT ITS ABILITY WOUDNT TRIGGER IF U SNEEK HIM IN IF INTERSTED ON MORE DECK IDEAS IM ME OR EMAIL ME MY PARTNER HAS TONS THATS ALL HE DOES IS BUILD DECKS.  P.S. KEEP IN MIND THIS IS EXTENDED FORMAT DECK LIST 4 SNEEK HAVE FUN

Let's list off the number of blatant errors in this post.

1.  All Caps
2.  No spelling or grammar
3.  Wrong Format

If you ever, EVER do this again you will be permed right out of this place.  Next time use whatever brain you possess to write something more legible.  Fear this and tremblingly obey. [/b]