[Deck Discussion] $T4K$

[Euthyphro]

Hey all, I'm new to the Mana Drain, I've been playing type 1 seriously since about last August.  I was wondering if anyone is still playing this deck?  This is the deck that got me into type 1, but sadly it seems to have fallen some in the current metagame.   Here's the list I've been using:

Stax

//-The Lock
4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Goblin Welder
//-The Kill
2 Triskelion
1 Karn, Silver Golem
//-Draw
1 Memory Jar
1 Windfall
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Timetwister
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Tinker
2 Thirst for Knowledge
//-Manas
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Grim Monolith
1 Lotus Petal
4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Volcanic Island
3 Pollutted Delta
1 Shivan Reef
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Sideboard:

2 Blood Moon  
1 Jester's Cap  (Good vs Hulk and Dragon, and other combo decks with few kill cards, and fun )
3 Fire/Ice
3 Rack and Ruin
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Tormod's Crypt

This is, I think, a fairly standard list.  It started from Stephen Menendian and Matthieu Durand's list in their Starcity article from this past summer, and is now very similar to Menendian's list from a fairly recent article.

I'm not really sure what to put for a card by card analysis.  The deck used to have black in it, for Yawgmoth's Will and Demonic Tutor, and I was even running Vampiric Tutor at one point as well.  

I also ran a sole Mindslaver at one point in place of Trike #2, while very good sometimes, 'Slaver was too situational in this deck.  

I played almost this exact build, I think the only difference being that I still had the Mindslaver in, at the recent Waterbury tournament.   I went 2-1-2, beating a Keeper and a Hulk deck, drawing to Hulk and GAT, and I lost to a CounterSlavery build I had never seen before.  

My biggest problem matchup right now is Keeper, though admittedly I have only 1 playtest partner, and that is his pet deck.  I've been testing against Big O., U/R Landstill, Keeper, Hulk, TnT and Dragon.  I'm hesitant to say too much about these other matchups yet, as I haven't gotten that many matches in yet.  For example, I went about 1-5 vs Big O. last week, and I think 3-1 this week.  Fairly indeterminate.

What does everyone think, is this deck still viable?  Any suggestions on card changes/color splashes, etc?  I'd just love to see more discussion on my favorite deck.

[Wollblad]

Draw 7:s are dangerous business, specially after sideboading when people have Hurkyl's Recall. Also, against combo decks they might help your opponent more than you. Timetwister has the porest synnergy with the deck, so I would suggest you cut that one. Perhaps adding Time Walk instead or is there any particular reason you have omitted it? Another suggestion is that you try Winter Orb. Great against most decks, specially Keeper.

I also have my doubts that Rack and Ruin is better than Viasino Heretic. I guess it depends on how many damping matrixes you expect to run into.

[Toad]

Your decklist is pretty standard and solid. I don't find the second Triskelion to be really usefull, so you can probably cut it for a Thirst for Knowledge.

Winter Orb is bad here because this deck needs to untap a lot of lands to cast the Draw7s and the Thirsts. You can't rely solely on Workshops and Moxens as MUD or Welder MUD can do under the wOrb (and they both have Workers).

Don't underestimate the power of the Draw7s here. They are really important in the deck's strategy. Even the Timetwister, because the recursion ability is sometimes crutial.

[Euthyphro]

@Wollblad:
The draw-7s are a fairly essential part of the deck.  The idea is to have the opponent either locked or at least semi-locked, then achieve massive card advantage and continue the lock.  You're right that Timetwister is the least synergistic draw in the deck, since it removes any Welder food from my graveyard, but the strength of Timetwister, especially early game, far outweighs any dissynergy it might have.  It's also great vs any other graveyard based decks.  Vs. Dragon it can sometimes undo several turns of work.

Time Walk is, I think, even less synergistic than Timetwister.  The only dissynergy with 'Twister is my Welders, while Time Walk is worse with active Smokestack or Tangle Wire, and often is only a draw-1.

I haven't thought about Viashino Heretic, I may hafta try it though I suspect Rack and Ruin's instant speed will prove better, I know the damage from the Heretic won't help me that much.  This deck kills in a way similar to Keeper or Hulk, control the game then just win.

@Toad:
My reason for the 2nd Trike is that I have found myself locking an opponent completely out of the game, but not being able to draw a kill card in time.  This is how I drew both of my matches at the Waterbury tourney.  Admittedly this may be a bit of a knee-jerk reaction to those draws, but I've really enjoyed having extra defense against things like opposing welders, gorilla shaman, etc.  Not to mention how fun it is to have an active Welder and one Trike on board and the other in the grave.

[Ghost]

Hey, have you thought about using trinisphere yet?

[Euthyphro]

I've thought about Trinisphere, and I plan to playtest it some more.  For now I'm thinking about tournaments in the near future when Darksteel still isn't legal.  After that, I'm going to test it with Trinisphere a lot.  

How good does everyone think it will be in Stax?  I'm not sure if it will prove better than Sphere or not.  Casting a draw-7 is often followed by dropping a 0cost artifact or 2, which is much easier accomplished at a cost of 1 each rather than 3 each.  And of course there's all the other issues people have discussed here already, the fact that it's no good in multiples other than as an extra permanent, I can't tap it down to Tangle Wire, etc.  If anyone has better arguments on why they think it's better than Sphere, I'd love to hear them.

[BreathWeapon]

Why exactly has Meditate fallen from favor?

[Euthyphro]

@BreathWeapon: I prefer Thirst for Knowledge over Meditate.  While it draws less cards, Meditate was fairly situational, not nearly as good when there's no Smokestack on the board.  The discard on Thirst is negligible, and even advantageous, as you can dump a juicy artifact and weld in back into play.  Thirst is, in my opinion, strictly better.

[DavidHernandez]

I still play this deck.  In the meantime, here is a link to the Archive (7 pages on tmd, about a billion pages when converted to MS Word).

http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=11877

Also embedded in the pages of the above link are links to the $T4KS article by Smennen and Toad.  I suggest everyone re-read all of that material to be fully informed on the "why/why not" of certain card choices.

In the meantime, I prefer Meditates, and i run 3.  If you aren't skipping turns, you aren't maximizing the damage against your opponent.  Thirst for Knowledge is good, but I think Meditates are a required card in any true Stax/$T4KS build.  

Here is the last build i ran:

Dave's Stax_Remix January 29, 2004

4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
4 Sphere of Resistance
2 Chalice of the Void
1 Memory Jar
(15)

2 Triskelion
1 Karn, Silver Golem
(3)

3 Meditate
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Tinker
1 Fabricate
(8)

1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Demonic Tutor
(2)

1 Wheel of Fortune
4 Goblin Welder
(5)

4 Mishra’s Workshop
4 Volcanic Island
2 Badlands
3 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Island
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Underground Sea
1 Strip Mine
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
(27) (60)

Sideboard
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Blood Moon
2 Jester’s Cap
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Rack and Ruin
2 Divert
(15)

In my opinion, if you don't run Draw-7's, then you aren't playing Stax/$T4KS.

Meditates are still my prefered card-drawing due to it's ability to force the opponent to sac more stuff to Smokestacks than you will have to.

I'm looking into Eater of Days as another way to skip turns, but so far it looks like only 2 in the deck will work.  Four are too many, and you will die if you cast one on the without a powered Smokestack in play.

Re: Fabricate, i actually found this card to be very useful.  I'm still testing with it, and have not been sorry to see it.  My only problem with it is that it isn't "broken", and there are other cards that may be better in the long run (another meditate, another land/mox/petal etc.)

I agree with Toad that Winter Orbs are bad in this deck.  As for Triskelion, i think that 2 in the deck absolutely rock.  The recursion of 2 Triskelions is what won 2 of my matches at National's with this deck.

I'm finding that 4 Chalice are too many, and that 2 work well.  Mox Monkeys can eat it pretty easily, which can be annoying.

Dave.

[Smmenen]

You mention having trouble against Keeper.

First, Keeper has obviously gotten much stronger against Stax over the last year, partly because of people working hard at keeper and less people working as hard on Stax - but also becuase of the quality of the answers: Damping Matrix, Rack and Ruin, and Decree are all much better than what existed previously.

Nonetheless, the fundamentals of the matchup are the same.  First, you need to recognize that Keeper is NOT Tog.  There is no permanent they play that will just utterly destroy you.  The best they can do is Upkeep cycle decree of Justice.  This means you do need to keep and maintain a tight hold of the game.  How?  First you need to recognize which cards are most effective.  Against Keeper the single most important card to get active is Smokestack.  Keeper can and will play a land every turn.  You need to answer this with Wasteland, Smokestack, and Tangle Wire.  Chalice for 2 is a neat trick, and can be a smart lure, but keep in mind that you need to resolve certain key spells.  The Spheres are there merely to supplement the other parts, NOT to act as the key hoser as they do against Combo or mutliple-spell-per-turn decks like old GAT.  

So what does this mean?  A Turn one smokestack that resolves is one of the best things you could possibly do.  Your draw is also critical.  If you are running Meditate instead of Thirst, that will  be a huge advantage in the Keeper matchup where Meditate is much better.  Additionally, draw7s are very helpful becuase you play them while you have control over the board and mana to spare.  Your first welder will get plowed, but it is critical that you continue to play Welders.  Tangle Wire is actualy important so don't underestimate it.  It will prevetn Mana Drain from hitting you.  Getting good hands is crucial becuase if you try and execute a game plan off one workshop and no other land, you will fail to Keeper's massive amount of Wastelands.  use your Wastelands effectively as well to keep Tangle Wire useful and Smokestack powerful and your game will be quite solid.  Also, don't forget that Sphere + Tangle Wire means that Force of Willl is essentially "Turned Off."  If you are playing first, don't be afraid to drop Chalice for Zero since control of the board's permanents is so absolutely crucial.

Stephen Menendian

[b_1e1_n]

Where are the wastelands?

[DavidHernandez]

b_1e1_n:
I can only assume that you are asking this question of me, since the list that opened this thread already includes 4.

I've had tremendous success with my mana base, and refuse to mess with it.  Running the Strip Mine has worked well for me.  I only run Wastelands in a Workshop deck when i play WelderMUD (or any Workshop deck that isn't specifically "Stax").

I found that there were too many holes in my required colors with more than just strip mine.  For more info on this, see the article by Smennen and Toad, along with the Archive link i posted earlier.

"Where are the Wastelands" is rather vague.  Specifically, they are in my card-box when i play Stax.

dave

[Euthyphro]

@David:  First, I agree with you not running Wastelands in your build.  When I was running black I didn't run them either, and I think it'd be very difficult to do so without causing color problems.  

I'm still not sold completely on Meditate, though given both your advice, and Smmenen's re. Keeper, I may try them again.  

You mentioned that you liked Fabricate so far.  Have you tried Vampiric Tutor?  I was running that for a while, and being instant speed and able to fetch any card, at two mana cheaper, it seems like it would be a stronger choice.  Any thoughts?

I like the Divert in the board, I may have to test that a bit myself.  

Also, thanks for the link, it's a lot to dig through, but it should prove enlightening.

@ Smmenen: Thanks for the tips.  I have found same as you that Smokestack is the strongest lock piece in the match.  

I find it incredibly difficult to keep Welders on the board though.  As you say, the first one gets plowed, but it seems like too often the second gets countered, and the third gets Fired, etc.

[Toad]

You can play Wastelands AND black in the same build. This gives you an extremely fragile and land-light mana base, but It can be done. You have to run some Glimmervoids though. See in the tournament forum, the Colombus tourney breakdown, Kevin Kron (one of the leading experts in $T4KS) was playing a 3-colour build with 3 Wastelands to a strong second place finish.

Meditate is cool. Thirst for Knowledge is cool too. Both are usefull but have different implications. Meditate is strong against Control, because you can cast it on your first turn pretty easily even if you have no lock Component on the board. This can't be done against an Aggro deck or Combo. Thirst for Knowledge will net you less cards but is an all-situation card. You don't need a Smokestack or a full Tangle Wire on the board to use it.

I don't like Vampiric Tutor in this deck because of It's card disadvantage nature. You have a huge amount of draw to get what you want. Fabricate is probably weak because It hurts your tempo. I'd rather use a Sculpting Steel over this. Or a Chalice of the Void. Chalice is strong.

Divert is a SB tech we've been using for ages. Kevin was running 2 or 3 at GenCon last year. We cut them for more usefull stuff, as fast mana seems to be everywhere.

[colder]

(Please excuse me - I have no experience playing Stax, nor any playtesting knowledge to draw from.)

Since there's been so much talk about using Meditate, I thought I'd weigh in with another win condition for this deck (which I've been harping on in my head for a while):

[card]Time Vault[/card] and [card]Lodestone Myr[/card].

(1) Lodestone Myr is a nice tank
(2) Time Vault lets you cement the effect of a Smokestack
(3) The two together give you a stupidly large trampler.

I've seen builds of Stax before that used Time Vault, so its inclusion into this deck wouldn't be unreasonable.  Finding a spot for the Myrs might be a bit tougher though.

Am I way out with wishful thinking?

[Smmenen]

You're not wishful thinking, you're just way off and have no idea how Stax actually operates.  
Steve

[DEA]

he's only off about stax, but the lodestone myrs were being used in deadbolt along with static orb and winter orb
personally i feel the lodestone/vault combo is very iffy
when you can cast it without having to worry about bounce, plow, disenchant effects, you're already winning
it's just another win more combo that has the potential to screw up royally
any of the w/u seals will stop it cold (ok, they also stop dragon )

point being that lodestone myrs will make the deck run very different

[DavidHernandez]

colder:
We used Time Vault in most of the original Stax builds.  It really just turned into a 'win-more' card.  That's because by the time you could kill with it, you were already winning.

Lodestone Myr doesnt work well in Stax because you are tapping to your Tangle Wires.  Early Stax variants (and decks such as Lock Stock) used to run big fat creatures (like Juggernaut).  These didnt work well because there was no synergy with the Lock components.  Some people would say that "that doesnt mean they can't work to help you win", but it's not optimal.  In my opinion, if you are not playing the optimal configuration, then you are playing to lose.

Regarding Vampiric Tutor, Toad beat me to it.  The card disadvantage is too great (you essentially lose a card because, while the Tutor replaces itself, it only does so by giving up your draw).  I ran Lim Dul's Vault with success, but again it was  card disadvantage, so i pulled them out.

Fabricate has been good, but i'm not convinced it deserves a place in the deck.

Toad also mentioned that Wastelands can work.  I agree to a point--I think that if you run 2 Wastelands and a Strip, and tweaked the mana base so that there were ways to get the colors you need (i.e., Glimmer Void), then it can be done.  The base is so tuned though, that i am not considering adding Wastelands.  If i am going to a tourney that requires Wastelands, then i would rather play a Stacker build with Pyrostatic Pillars and Blood Moons as well.

Dave.

[Arex]

would a card like "Eater of Days" even be considered in a Welder Mud Deck?

i want to try this card. Especially when the lock is in play with the stacks and wires, lets have your opponent be tapped and sac 2 times before you attack with a big 9 damage trampler.

I know, it dies to any good removal like StoP or Edict, but hey, which creature does not. And I think let your opponent sac twice (even though he will get another card) might be worth it. He still will be tapped for Wire and still will sac twice for stacks.

Anyone tried it yet?

Just a thought

Arex

[Toad]

It's just a win condition, as you can't cast it on your first or second turn. In fact, It's only usefull when you have already won. Here, the win condition doesn't matter. Hence, I'd rather run something that doubles with utility, such as Karn. And Karn is a faster kill.

Oh, and Eater of Days is absolute shit in Welder mirrors.

[BreathWeapon]

If you run City of Brass and Glimmervoid in your manabase you should be able to support Black just fine, even with the full compliment of strips.

Would anybody mind going over various sideboarding standards for Stax in different match ups? I'm always at a loss for Sideboarding with Stax short of Tormod's Crypts and Blood Moons.

[RoadTrippin]

It seems like everyone's overlooking something- in my experience, Mud wins with the strongest win condition in the game- the almighty scoop. It doesn't really matter much what the kill card you resort to is.

[BreathWeapon]

It seems like everyone's overlooking something- in my experience, Mud wins with the strongest win condition in the game- the almighty scoop. It doesn't really matter much what the kill card you resort to is.

People said the exact same thing when discussing Slavery, and it proved to be a massive pain in the ass during tournament play. Giving the opponent the luxury of stalling for time while you swing for 20 via Goblin Welder is simply a luxury you can't afford IRL.

[RoadTrippin]

Uh, if they want to stall and let me swing 20 turns with a welder, it's fine by me. A 1-0 match win is still a win.

[Euthyphro]

Has anyone thought about running Sundering Titan in the board to come in vs.  multi colored control decks?  It seems like sweeping 2-4 of their lands in one turn could be very strong, even at the high casting cost.  It's something I plan to try.

@BreathWeapon:  I agree, I'd love to see some other opinions on sideboarding, I've never been that happy with my plans.  I was going to post some of my sb plans here, but as I was typing them I realized I don't have very good plans.  I definitely feel that with Stax sideboarding when playing first or drawing first is quite different.  When on the draw I'll often take out Windfall, Spheres, and/or Chalice, but other times I often find myself taking out random cards, like -1 Sphere, -2 Chalice, etc.  Some more educated takes on the board would be great.

[Euthyphro]

The problem, imo, with Welder as the sole kill method is that yes, you are playing for the 1-0 victory, but you're letting your opponent play for the 1-0 as well.  If they win a drawn out game one, you have just as much trouble winning two more in time as they would.

I suppose you could have a fast kill card or two in the board for the case where you lose the first game, but I think I'd just stick to a few kills main.

[defector]

It's an entertaining idea to run a deck without a win conditioon, but come on, it's not going to hold up.  I'm going to cut the black out of my stax tonight, I promise.  It's hard to do, but I think it's the next step in the evolution of at least my build.  I won't bother with th elist, but here's my sideboard, I've run it in one tourney and liked it, I actually didn't play it well enough  

Stax Sidebaord
Red Ele Blast X4
Blue Ele Blast X4
Blood Moon X3
Chalice x1(3 main)
Tormods X3

I love the 8 blast plan and the blood monn, the other 4 are variable based on build/expectations.
thanx
defector

[Rico Suave]

The problem, imo, with Welder as the sole kill method is that yes, you are playing for the 1-0 victory, but you're letting your opponent play for the 1-0 as well.  If they win a drawn out game one, you have just as much trouble winning two more in time as they would.

There aren't going to be any long drawn out games.  If there are, it's because your opponent didn't concede to your hard lock, in which case you're going to win anyway.  

If your opponent wins game one, it'll be because their deck functioned and killed quickly, or because you conceded to their insurmountable position.  A smart Stax player won't drag out a game they won't win.

[defector]

I must not be smartt then   I very rarely concede any game, people make mistakes at the cusp of victory maybe more than anywhere else.  I plan to stick around and see how victory is managed.
defector

[Smmenen]

It depends on the level of players.  In a highly skilled/experienced environment, most people are very familiar with these decks and will scoop to a hard lock and a damage source.

Steve