Frantic Search and Arrogant Wurm

[tyentr99]

Hi,

I was just wondering, if I only have three lands and I tap them all to play Frantic Search and I also have an Arrogant Wurm in my hand.  If I discard Arrogant Wurm for the Frantic Search does the Frantic Search fully resolve before I have to pay madness? Basically I want if I can play the Arrogant Wurm.

Thanks.

[Jebus]

You can't play spells and abilities during the resolution of another spell or ability, so of course you must wait for FS to resolve.

When FS resolves, and you discard your worm, its replacement effect will let you remove it from the game, if you do, the Madness trigger goes on the stack after FS resolves.  After the Madness trigger resovles, you can play the Wurm or pass priority and put it into your graveyard.

[tyentr99]

Thanks.

[TracerBullet]

Important addendum- The card doesn't actually go to the grave until you again pass priority.  If you play the Frantic Search during your mainphase, it doesn't go to the grave until you declare another spell or ability or enter your next phase.  This also allows you to play a land you drew off Frantic Search (playing a land does not require you to pass priority).

[DEA]

that's not entirely accurate
in gist it's right
when FS resolves, the cards ARE discarded
the madness trigged ability rfgs the arrogant worm
madness states that you have until the next time you pass priority to play the spell
if you do not play it after you have passed priority, another triggered ability puts the arrogant worm in the graveyard
btw, FS goes to the graveyard as the last part of resolution ie by the time anyone gets priority it's already there

[Tristal]

Actually, when you play madness abilities, you 'discarding' the card is replaced by RFGing it.  While the madness triggered ability is on the stack, the madness card is never in the graveyard.

Of course, you can choose not to discard an Arrogant Wurm with madness, in which case it simply gets discarded normally and you can't play it.

Sequence of normal events:
Frantic Search resolves.  You discard a Wonder, and an Arrogant Wurm with madness (RFGing it).  You untap Island, Forest, Forest.
Madness trigger goes on the stack and says "When this resolves, you may play ~this~ by paying its madness cost at your next priority."
You gain priority (Assuming it's your turn).
Madness trigger resolves.
NOW, you can either pay 2G to play the Wurm, or do something else.
-If you do, gee, you play the Wurm!
-If you don't (By passing priority or casting another spell, or using another ability) the Wurm is immediately placed in your graveyard.

Hope this clears some stuff up.

[JSexton]

To add to what was said above, you can even play a land that you draw from the Frantic Search before playing the Arrogant Wurm. This is because you can play a land any time you have priority and the stack is emtpy, and it doesn't use the stack. Therefore, you don't have to pass priority.

[TracerBullet]

Important addendum- The card doesn't actually go to the grave until you again pass priority.  If you play the Frantic Search during your mainphase, it doesn't go to the grave until you declare another spell or ability or enter your next phase.  This also allows you to play a land you drew off Frantic Search (playing a land does not require you to pass priority).

I'm generally not one to tout my own horn, but do me a favor- read the responses before you respond next time.

[JSexton]

Ah, hell. I did read the whole thread, but I missed seeing you mention that part. Sorry about that.

[DEA]

If you play the Frantic Search during your mainphase, it doesn't go to the grave until you declare another spell or ability or enter your next phase.

actually this part was the one i felt wasn't entirely accurate

[JSexton]

If you play the Frantic Search during your mainphase, it doesn't go to the grave until you declare another spell or ability or enter your next phase.

actually this part was the one i felt wasn't entirely accurate

I think Tracer just had bad pronoun use. I think the first "it" refers to Arrogant Wurm, not Frantic Search.

[Tainted_Wood]

I don't understand how you can play a land inbetween the FS and the madness Arrogant Wurm.

When is the stack empty?

Not trying to be difficult or disagree, I just don't understand it.

Sequence of normal events:
Frantic Search resolves. You discard a Wonder, and an Arrogant Wurm with madness (RFGing it). You untap Island, Forest, Forest.
Madness trigger goes on the stack and says "When this resolves, you may play ~this~ by paying its madness cost at your next priority."
You gain priority (Assuming it's your turn).

Madness trigger resolves.
NOW, you can either pay 2G to play the Wurm, or do something else.
-If you do, gee, you play the Wurm!
-If you don't (By passing priority or casting another spell, or using another ability) the Wurm is immediately placed in your graveyard.

Wouldn't playing a land prevent you from casting the Wurm then?



I guess as a follow up question, how to multiple madness spells work?  

Code:

It's Player A's main phase, Player A has 1 card (goblin welder lets say), while Player B has 2 Cards: Frantic Search and Circular Logic.  Player B has 3 islands in play and no other mana sources.

Player A plays a Goblin Welder, and passes priority.
Player B play's frantic search, and passes priority.
Player A passes priority
Frantic Search resolves
      (Player B draws another Circular Logic and an Accumulated Knowledge
       and  discards both Circular Logics)
     The Circular Logics madness trigger goes off RFGing them as a replacement effect.

???? happens next.

Now I believe there is a way that Player B doesn't have to spend both blue mana if Player A chooses to not pay for the first Circular Logic (and thusly could play an end of turn AK).  Is this correct?
I think this happened in some pro-tour somewhere and was key to the win.  Anyone else remember that?  The commentary on Sideboard.com refered to "Blah has played a lot of Magic Online and was really familiar with the timing rules with madness..."

What do you guys think?

[Matt]

Wouldn't playing a land prevent you from casting the Wurm then?

Playing a land does not require you to give up priority at any time (which is what madness looks for when deciding if you can still play the spell for the madness cost).

[DEA]

G12.1a - Land is a type. Lands aren't spells and don't go on the stack; they are simply played from the hand. The active player may play a land once each turn during his or her main phase when he or she has priority and the stack is empty. If an object is both a land and another type, it can only be played as a land. It can't be played as a spell. [CompRules 2003/10/01]

hmmm
strange, but how can we play lands if the madness trigger is on the stack? i just noticed this
iirc, rune horvik once answered on saturday school that this works, but the a/m rule seems to contradict it

[Tristal]

After the madness trigger resolves, nothing (presumably - if you madnessed in response to a spell, then you're SOL) is on the stack.  This is when you can play your madness spell.

Careful Study resolves.  You discard a Wonder and an Arrogant Wurm (with Madness).  Careful Study leaves the stack.  The madness trigger goes on the stack.

Both players can choose to respond.

When the madness trigger resolves, the active player can either choose one of four actions:

1) Play the Madness spell for its cost.

2) Play a static ability (Playing a land, flipping a Branchsnap Lorian, etc)

3) Play another spell entirely

4) Pass priority (Putting the Wurm card in the graveyard)

[DEA]

what you're saying now is that you're playing a land during the resolution of the madness ability?
when do you get priority during the resolution of an object on the stack?

[Jebus]

what you're saying now is that you're playing a land during the resolution of the madness ability?
when do you get priority during the resolution of an object on the stack?

When the madness trigger resolves, it lets you play the card for its Madness cost until you next Pass.

So, the Madness trigger resolves, and then you have priority.  Presumably, the stack should be empty at this point.  If it is, you can play a land.  Since this is a special action, you do not have to pass priority to do this.

So, you play the land and retain priority.  You then can play the spell or its Madness cost.

It seems you are under the impression that you play the Madness spell during the resolution of the Madness trigger.  THis is not correct.  You play the spell after the madness trigger has resolved.

[DEA]

When the madness trigger resolves, it lets you play the card for its Madness cost until you next Pass.

this is the part i missed
thanks