[Deck] Tangle Wire Sligh

[Ric_Flair]

Intro

In an effort to renovate a dead archetype I have started playing around with a Vintage port of Dan Cato's RDW from this past season's Extended.  Before I post the deck let me articulate why I think that this deck is a better choice than Ankh Sligh in particular and why it is a good choice overall.

In recent months there has been a noticeable surge in the use of powerful lands.  This includes things like Bazaar, Workshop, and various Man Lands.  Decks like TNT, Dragon, Madness, wMUD, O Stompy, and Green Power Rangers all use these tremendously powerful lands to great effect.  While Ankh Sligh was an excellent weapon for a metagame with abundant fetchlands, the current metagame uses Bazaar and Workshop in a way that makes the Ankh damage negligible.  These lands provide such a HUGE burst of power that Ankh decks are racing to keep up against better lands, better creatures, and powerful restricted cards.  The facts have shown that over time Ankh has lost this race again and again.  Ankh Sligh, once a good budget choice, is no longer a presence in even a semi powered metagame.  The deck is dead because of the power of unrestricted lands.  

Enter RDW.  The deck was designed to operate in a combo and control heavy metagame, one that I would venture was as fast as our current Vintage metagame is.  Given this crucible the deck that was produced ports well into Vintage.  Tangle Wire in combination with Pillage and Ports makes this deck a very inhospitable opponent for decks depending on the uber lands, Bazaar and Workshop.  

Tangle Wire is a remarkably unfair card.  Over the life of a single Tangle Wire an opponent will tap 10 non-Tangle Wire permanents while you will tap only three (Tangle Wire and two others when the fade counter is set to three, Tangle Wire and one other when the counter is set to two, and so on...).  This HUGE disparity will likely shut down the uber lands at least for a while.  Add to this the fact that none of the decks that run the uber lands run counterspells (except Dragon) and it is likely that Tangle Wire will come into play.  So Tangle Wire is the first part of the anti uber lands campaign.  

Next is Pillage.  Pillage is such an underused card.  In a format with uber lands and generally low land counts Pillage is remarkably good.  Add to this the increase in the number of artifacts and the ubiquity of Moxen and Pillage is amazing.  Only Mana Drain and Keeper/Tog decks keep Pillage from being a major player.  The fact that Pillage costs 3 means that a single Drained Pillage could spell doom for the person casting the card.  However, given the rise of aggro recently and another component in this deck, and Pillage may not be the liability that it once was.   Pillage is the second part in the anti-uber land campaign.

Then there is Port.  Port, often seen as Wastelan's poor replacement, actually has a crucial role in this deck.  The ability to cut off Workshop (tapping it during its controller's upkeep) and forcing the Bazaar player to use Bazaar at inopportune times (like when Squees are still in the graveyard) makes Port the third piece of the puzzle.  Ports can often break up Mana Drain mana making the higher casting cost Tangle Wire and Pillage playable.  Against Landstill decks and Fish Port taps attackers AND land.  And against any other deck it supplements the 5 Strip complement well.  Note that the inclusion of the mana instensive Port makes using Ankh unwise.  

The Deck

Creatures:
4 Jackal Pup
4 Slith Firewalker
4 Grim Lavamancer
3 Gorilla Shaman
1 Dwarven Miner

Burn:
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Incinerate

Lock:
4 Tangle Wire
4 Pillage

Restricted Stuff:
1 Black Vise
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus (not necessary)
1 Strip Mine

Land:
4 Rishidan Ports
4 Wasteland
12 Mountains

Sideboard:
4 Blood Moon
4 Red Elemental Blasts
4 Rack and Ruin
3 Tormod's Crypt

Alternate Cards:
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Dwarven Miner
4 Phyrexian Warbeast
1 Petrified Field
4 Price of Progress
4 Fireblast
4 Cursed Scroll

I am not going to go through the typical card list, we all know why Jackal Pup is in the deck.  

Slith Firewalker:  Chalice is a beating for Ankh Sligh.  It is a beating for this deck, too.  But Chalice has fallen out of the metagame.   Nonetheless, mana diversification is a good idea.  The Slith is an excellent creature in a creature light format.  It allows the mana curve of the deck to follow a damage curve, something that is quite nice.  An early Slith against a deck with little or no creature removal is a huge problem.  The Slith also gives this deck a legitimate creature in combat (eventually).  Things like Jackal Pup, Gorilla Shaman and the like don't exactly inspire fear in opponent's men, but a 4/4 or bigger Slith does.

Dwarven Miner:  Oh he is so slow.  Terribly slow.  But that 4th Shaman is just a curse to draw.  Three insures I get one Shaman without the need to go over board.  In some games Miner can just come out early and do his business late in the game.  1 is fine for such a slow card.  

Black Lotus:  In a version I am testing right now there is no Lotus and I am not sad.  In a real metagame I would add one, but right now it does nothing except to allow a very cool opening of two Slith's turn 1.  Given how unlikely that is, I figured no need.  But IRL it is in there.

12 Mountains:  I posted an early version of this deck in the newbie forum in the Ankh Sligh thread and got roasted for no good reason, aside from the fact that newbie's have some emotional connection to their decks.  I did, however, post a deck with only 10 red sources.  That is not enough.  This deck MUST have RR on turn three or it is a dead duck most of the time.  Thus, 12 Mountains, 1 Ruby, and 1 Lotus.  14 sources.  In playtesting this weekend and in 'fishing the deck last night this has been more than enough red.  

The Tangle Wires, Pillages, and Ports were explained above.  

Testing

I tested the deck against a GPR deck this weekend and it did well.  The uber land control elements did exactly what they were supposed to do.  I never once failed to get RR by turn 2, let alone turn 3 and the deck hummed along nicely.  The alternate cards are listed as they are because of flaws I saw this weekend.  

Drawing burn is obviously key.  In one game I drew 4 Pillages, 2 Wastes and 2 Ports and NO burn.  Even with all that I still lost to a swarm of good man lands and creatures.  If there is any other worthy burn spell out there let me know.  These are the best, but maybe so metagame condition makes something else out there better.

Jackal Pups were my roads to victory more often than not thanks to Tangle Wire.  Many turns were nothing more than attack, pass turn, Port his lands, he draws passes turn and I attack again.  Ports are hugely powerful in a metagame with such good lands.  Against GPR and Fish they are 2/3s of an Icy for free.  They are similarly good against GAT and other control decks that crave colored mana.  They can even operate as bad Strips 6-9.  

Well there you have it--my attempt to innovate a dead deck.  It is pretty much an auto loss to combo, obviously, but in this metagame of aggro and control I think it is a good budget choice and a good choice overall.  It is really unquestionably superior to Ankh Sligh and I think is the next step in the progress of that deck.  

I would appreciate feedback on the deck from everyone.  Thanks.

[eddavatar]

A 4CC artifact with a symmetrical effect, but without enough acceleration to drop by turn 2 and without enough permenent onboard in a lot of situations to make it uneven? Sorry, but i can't quite see it. Sure if it resolves it can shut down an opponent, but usually by the time you can cast it, either they're dead, or they're having control anyways.

But yea, recently I've been beaten by slighs, especially outdated badtech sligh.dec. they mysteriously finish in money, maybe it's time to dust out my sligh once again.

[Ric_Flair]

@eddavatar:  

You wrote:

A 4CC artifact with a symmetrical effect, but without enough acceleration to drop by turn 2 and without enough permenent onboard in a lot of situations to make it uneven? Sorry, but i can't quite see it. Sure if it resolves it can shut down an opponent, but usually by the time you can cast it, either they're dead, or they're having control anyways.

First:

[card]Tangle Wire[/card]

It is a 3 cc artifact and the point of the deck is that it is NOT symmetric at all, despite its appearances as such.  

I addressed this when I wrote:

Over the life of a single Tangle Wire an opponent will tap 10 non-Tangle Wire permanents while you will tap only three (Tangle Wire and two others when the fade counter is set to three, Tangle Wire and one other when the counter is set to two, and so on...). This HUGE disparity will likely shut down the uber lands at least for a while.

[Jhaggs]

Ric,

   I was wondering if you could go over your reasoning for not including Pyrostatic Pillar in your build.  Looking at your list, my initial placement for pillar would go in the Incinerate spots.  My logic into looking at Pillar as a possible MD selection is that it is a another form of control.  At times it can greatly slow down the play of your opponent and often times act as a gloried ankh.  Further, it seems that over the course of a game, one pillar would deliver more damage than one incinerate.  The lone draw back of Pillar is that it cannot target creatures as well but considering you are MD 4 grim's do you not already have enough spot removal?  Finally, Pillar can give you a "puncher's chance" when facing combo.  Its tough to "go off" when faced with so much potential damage.

[DEA]

i've tested my heavily bastardised weldermud (unpowered) build against the extended rdw
rdw rolls over and dies to a turn one sphere
now that trinisphere is here, i expect more shafting goodness
the fact that smokestacks has to be resolved before the tangle (my stacks, your tangle) means you're actually screwing yourself up with tangle  :lol:

[Ric_Flair]

@DEA:

i've tested my heavily bastardised weldermud (unpowered) build against the extended rdw
rdw rolls over and dies to a turn one sphere
now that trinisphere is here, i expect more shafting goodness  

Well there is undoubtedly a problem with first turn Sphere, but is this deck any more suspectible to Turn 1 Sphere than any other deck without FoW?  I don't think so.

@Jhaggs:

Pillar has always scared me.  I will try it out though.  It might help against combo.

[Gaea]

Just my thought: I played this deck some tournaments and i found that pyrostatic pillar and null rod are the best locking cards for this deck that doesn't have a lot of mana, and also i think 12 mountain are too much, i don't like to draw mountains in the midgame, add 4 fetchland and run only 7 mountain, i think the deck will run better and cut the rishadan for mishra'sa factory, with this changes i think the deck will improve his power.

[Androstanolone]

Ric probably doesn't like me as I was one of the primary people in opposition of his deck, but now that this has its own thread I'd like to just point out the flaws that I see, and why I think this deck is not as viable as ankh sligh.  

The Slith is an excellent creature in a creature light format

T1 is not creature light, fast fat is dominant in the format, whereas weenie aggro is suffering from an all time low.  Slith is a poor choice, but he may have made it back a few years ago when keeper, trix, parfait, and BBS were all the dominant decks.  I don't see slith getting big often enough to matter.  

Tangle wire: A good card, but the point is it was added to help solve sligh's bad matchups, and it doesn't.  Tangle wire is an anti-control card, and these aren't sligh's primary matchups.  All of the aggro decks can quickly outpace sligh in permaneants. TNT cranks out fatties so fast it's scary, madness can play threats during upkp as instants, or eot.  O stompy will bazaar away with squees and simply outdraw the crap out of you.  Sligh simply does not take full advantage of tangle wire, other decks can crank out perms faster.  Stax takes full advantage of wire, it can drop it's whole hand and play draw 7's, stax will be happy to see wire, since it helps them tap you down.  When staring a a couple sui chis in the face would you rather tap down their mana or draw some extra burn in hopes of ending the game before they can run you over?  You also miscounted the you tap to them tap ratio of tangle wire:

Over the life of a single Tangle Wire an opponent will tap 10 non-Tangle Wire permanents while you will tap only three

Actually, over the course of the tangle wire's life you will tap 6, since you have to tap 3 to cast it.  Basically you spend turn 3 doing nothing.  Wire gains you temporary perm advantage but you miscounted.  

Next is Pillage. Pillage is such an underused card

agreed.

Ports can often break up Mana Drain mana making the higher casting cost Tangle Wire and Pillage playable

This scenario is only valid if you have 5 mana, two of it red, 1 or 2 are ports.  This is fifth turn normally, quite a slow setup.  It also requires a combination of various cards, if port is not present, or pillage, or RR, then this scenario does not have a significant advantage.  Also, if you are not holding tangle wire or pillage then you have nothing to sneak under mana drain.  Ports are disruptive, but ultimately they do go 2 for 1.  

To conclude this section, the main weaknesses are:

A)  It was ported from extended, a format where all fast mana is banned
and there is like no combo
B)  It's slow, pillage, slith, and tangle wire are all somewhat pokey in T1
C)  The changes made don't affect sligh's bad matchups with the exception of pillage.  But you also dropped vandals from your deck, which doesn't help the stax matchup at all.  

Finally, I still have qualms with the mana base.  I simply don't think 12 mountains is enough to consistently get RR by turn 2 or 3.  I don't say this subjectively, but rather mathematically the chances are not heavily in your favor.  Fetchlands would help you not draw extra mountains late.  I know you said in actual playing you haven't gotten screwed, so I think you've had a bit of luck.  Sligh runs 14 mountains or so, and has no RR spells (except fireblast).  Also, between ports and wastelands you simply won't have a lot of extra mana to use.  Other decks with more land counts and card draw will simply be able to keep up and then outrace you.

[Ric_Flair]

Androstanolone:

First, do not start a flame war on this thread.  It will not be tolerated AT ALL.

Rane probably doesn't like me as I was one of the primary people in opposition of his deck

Second, at least get my name right.  Show some perfunctory amount of respect.  
 

Third, you said:

T1 is not creature light, fast fat is dominant in the format, whereas weenie aggro is suffering from an all time low.

The facts do not agree with you.

Here is the post from Columbus this past weekend:
http://www.morphling.de/coverages/top8decks.php?id=94

One TNT deck and the rest is combo or control.  I am not sure if you realize what your saying.  

Here is another recent event:

Barcelona:
http://www.morphling.de/coverages/top8decks.php?id=93

Two goblin decks, two combo decks, and the rest prison or control, another fattie-less environment

And this, Waterbury:
http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5537

Two O stompy decks, 1 TNT, the rest control or aggro control.

So you are wrong on the facts.  In a format like New England there is a possibility of anything showing up.  Combo is a problem for any Sligh deck.  Outside that I like Slith Firewalker a lot.  There are plenty of matchups where is he is good.  As the T8 show it is not all fatties all the time.  The metagame is more diverse.  Against Prison he is good.  Against control he is good.  Against GAT and fish, decks with smaller creatures he is good.  Look at the real metagame, then playtest, THEN criticize.

RE: Tangle Wire

A good card, but the point is it was added to help solve sligh's bad matchups, and it doesn't. Tangle wire is an anti-control card, and these aren't sligh's primary matchups. All of the aggro decks can quickly outpace sligh in permaneants. TNT cranks out fatties so fast it's scary, madness can play threats during upkp as instants, or eot. O stompy will bazaar away with squees and simply outdraw the crap out of you.

You are wrong in that Tangle Wire hurts only control.  It hurts all decks equally.  In the fattie scenario it taps down things I can't burn, blow up or tap, a huge help to the deck.  In fact, even the presence of FoW Wire is the second WORST against control, the first worst being Prison.  Try it out.  Tangle Wire thrived in an environment in 1.x much like modern Vintage.  

Again RE: Tangle Wire:

Over the life of a single Tangle Wire an opponent will tap 10 non-Tangle Wire permanents while you will tap only three

Actually, over the course of the tangle wire's life you will tap 6, since you have to tap 3 to cast it. Basically you spend turn 3 doing nothing. Wire gains you temporary perm advantage but you miscounted.

I failed to count those lands for a good reason:  All spells cost something to play.  Counting those land does not speak of the awfulness of Tangle Wire, it speaks to the latent investment associated with most spells: i.e. mana.  As such it is weakness of all spells and not this one in particular.  Even if you do include them, it is still a huge boost of 10 tapped to 6 tapped.  In a tight early game in which I have lots of removal that is still a good ratio.  

A) It was ported from extended, a format where all fast mana is banned and there is like no combo

Actually go look at the PT where Dan Cato got 9th.  There was plenty of fast mana and more combo than in Vintage now.  In fact, PT NO was one of the fastest events of all time with the Top 8 decks aside from the lone Tog deck having a FT of 2-3.  That is FAST.  It was because of this that the fast mana was banned.  

I appreciate comments from everyone, but the comments that Androstanolone are examples of what not to do.  They are not based on actual experience with the deck.  They are full of logical errors and worse many factual errors.  Finally he does not even get my name right.  Let's try to keep the quality of the posts high in this thread please.

[eddavatar]

it was a typo...i mean 3 CC obviously, my bad.

But i mean, if you have the leisure to drop a 3CC permenent, why not just drop cheaper, more efficient threats. Blood moon has always been considered expensive in sligh, how would tangle wire not be since it screw yourself over. (try finding enough things to tap when there's 3 counters)More, when tangle wire comes down, either it's too little too late, or it ends up too symmetrical. My experience with sligh is, I usually don't have more than 3 permanents, or else i'm going to face a big fat balance or deed. The wire even helps workshop decks' schemes.

[Ric_Flair]

why not just drop cheaper, more efficient threats. Blood moon has always been considered expensive in sligh, how would tangle wire not be since it screw yourself over. (try finding enough things to tap when there's 3 counters)More, when tangle wire comes down, either it's too little too late, or it ends up too symmetrical.

Why not a cheaper threat?  

First there is still the possibility of running into Chalice, in which case diversification is a good thing.  Second there is the issue with other appropriate threats.  As this thread stated at the beginning, Tangle Wire is designed to help out against certain decks, those using the two uber lands, and other decks using man lands.  At this specific role Tangle Wire works better than any other threat I can think of.  That is not to say that Tangle Wire is the only thing that can go in this slot, just the best given the current metagame.  It is expensive, but not prohibitively so with the amount of disruption in this deck.

Tangle Wire and You

The myth of Tangle Wire needs to be debunked.  Good players have realized this for a long time: Tangle Wire is not symmetrical at all.  If it were, your analysis would be correct, it would hurt my slightly permanent light deck.  But Tangle Wire, under any calculation, is a card that affects opponents more than it affects me.  The fact that Tangle Wire itself can be tapped is a huge part the draw of the card.  Furthermore because you control when it comes down you can maximize its effect.  Read again what was said about Tangle Wire and symmetry.  IT IS NOT SYMMETRIC.  And that is why it is good.  As for the too little, too late...my initial testing last week on App and my testing this week has shown that this is not the case.  Either way, Tangle Wire is vastly better than the old artifact in this deck, Ankh of Mishra, at least in the current metagame.

[Jhaggs]

Pillar has always scared me.  I will try it out though.  It might help against combo.

In my experience with Pillar, often times it just takes pure balls to MD 4 of them.  It fits wonderfully inside the basic aggro theme, yet as you point out it can have a major drawback.  At times it plays like the ultimate suicide card in a deck with such low casting cost as yours.  It definitly could help out with certain combo match ups, with the key being that it'll control the board for you to deliver sufficent beats.  Maybe its preferred to regulate it in the SB, but that really dries up some SB slots.  I would be interested in how Pillar works out for you.  I have seen it accelerate aggros goal through its burn without having to use mana resources to deliver damage...yet it so also backed fired on me more than once.  Maybe with this recent meta shift it maybe more effective.  Good luck.

But Tangle Wire, under any calculation, is a card that affects opponents more than it affects me. The fact that Tangle Wire itself can be tapped is a huge part the draw of the card. Furthermore because you control when it comes down you can maximize its effect.

This was excellent.

[RoadTrippin]

Ric, I tested a deck like this on Christmas vacation but gave up after a while. A few things I really liked about it were Shrapnel Blast, and Ankh of Mishra. I can't say I like Rishadan Port too much, though.

First things first, Shrapnel Blast speeds you up a whole turn and breaks out of stalemate games where you're either going to topdeck like a machine or wait to lose to soldier tokens. Blast is obviously the finisher you hope for. I happen to think it's so good that it's worth running 4 Great Furnaces. It's especially good if you run Ankh as well, which brings me to my next point: Ankh is great- in theory at least. Your opponent wants to play lands to circumvent Wire's affect, but you're going to force them to take 2-5 damage to do so. PoP is some good as well for obvious reasons.

[Master Tap]

The biggest problem I have with this style of deck is it begs to be S3 a bad deck at best. The wire/ankh/Sblast/pyropillar all smack of control but the deck can't back them up with a real threat ie juggs and welders.  Honestly the decks threats are very weak at best, as I was playing ponza for a short time I ran a similar threat base vs the threat of a real deck you often flounder quickly and die. Hope I have been helpful.

[Androstanolone]

And this, Waterbury:
http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5537

Two O stompy decks, 1 TNT, the rest control or aggro control.

ummm, 3/8 is almost half, and that's in the T8...  That's a lot.  So slith is only weak in 3/8 of your matchups?  oh yeah combo won't even give him time to do much of anything .... hm.  Anybody else think 38% aggro isn't enough to matter?

Barcelona:
http://www.morphling.de/coverages/top8decks.php?id=93

Two goblin decks...

goblin decks might as well be fat as far as slith is concerned, I think one ran 8 bolts and the other 4 bolts 2 fire/ice, each has an adequate number of slith answers.

Here is the post from Columbus this past weekend:
http://www.morphling.de/coverages/top8decks.php?id=94
One TNT deck and the rest is combo or control

so you're saying there's aggro in the meta... in the T8 no less, the fact is fat aggro is there, and weenie aggro runs cheap burn.  Slith does not thrive.


Another recent event you may have overlooked:

http://www.morphling.de/coverages/top8decks.php?id=92

2 madness type decks sporting arrogant wurms and roars, plus a goblin deck with 4 chains and 4 bolts.  

The bottom line is, pup, slith, etc. aren't going to be viable after 2-3 attacks, which is where slith starts to gain his advantage.  At double the investment, his tempo loss simply outweighs the extra damage he might do.  If a 2/1 comes out a turn earlier, it'll deal 6 damage in its 3 attacks, the same as a firewalker coming out the next turn would deal in those same turns.  

How can it be any clearer?

[CSeraph]

So you're saying don't run a creature, because some decks can bolt it?

How about we don't run spells, because they can be mana drained.

Yeah.

Edit: After some thought, I realize this deck runs *12* bolts, giving it the "bolt advantage". Possibly Goblin Sligh should stop running goblins to make these 'dead cards'.

[Androstanolone]

No, I'm saying play a creature that comes out a turn earlier, does the same damage, and frees up mana.

The bottom line is, pup, slith, etc. aren't going to be viable after 2-3 attacks, which is where slith starts to gain his advantage. At double the investment, his tempo loss simply outweighs the extra damage he might do. If a 2/1 comes out a turn earlier, it'll deal 6 damage in its 3 attacks, the same as a firewalker coming out the next turn would deal in those same turns.

did you read it?

[Androstanolone]

Like, goblin cadets, since both it and slith assume no blockers to be good.

[CSeraph]

Let's compare spades to spades; we don't have jackal pup 5-8 to run in firewalker's place. We have goblin cadets, who is infinitely more useless than pup in a strong aggro meta; and mogg fanatic, who doesn't swing hard at all.

I'm loath to even bother answering the equation of firewalker and cadets as bad against blockers. Walker remains good despite blockers after a few hits, cadets becomes jank; walker swings in by surprise when their attackers are out, cadets remains jank; and walker will never turn on you  if they chump block or cycle decree.

To be absolutely clear, though, who or what do you advocate in walker's place? Can you really be pushing cadets for a self-proclaimed aggro meta?

[Androstanolone]

Look, I cease caring what you think.  Have fun with your slith against STP bolt chain roar of the wurm arrogant wurm sui chi juggernaut.  As for this thread, almost nobody has said anything positive about the deck itself, so I have no further argument or debate.  



- Androstan

THEN STOP POSTING HERE IF YOU HAVE NOTHING BETTER TO SAY. I don't feel like giving you a second Warning, even if It looks like you don't care about your first one.
You are annoying eveybody with your uncivil attitude.
-- Toad

[Gothmog]

If you want to play this deck with good creatures, buy some Workshops and make it into the latest Stacker variant.  Cut the very slow control elements and the terrible creatures for Welders, Juggernauts and their friends and beatdown like civilized folk.

Oh, and I'm not talking about the wanna-be prison Stacker builds that were floated around a few months ago.  I'm talking about a deck that disrupts, swings with Juggy's and burns the hell out of things.

As for keeping it Sligh, some basic thoughts:

This probably doesn't have to be said, but should be changed in the list, you mean 1 Strip Mine/3 Wastelands, not 4 Wastelands.

I find that 4 Lavamancers is one too many, and you end up in too many situations without Lavamancer ammo, I'd cut 1.

I'm sure the Miner has his moments, but 1 doesn't seem to accomplish much.  Also, you have too few mana sources to get a lot of use from him, I'd cut him also.

I'm very much a believer in Tangle Wire and its ability to get spells to resolve, but 8 3cc spells that don't do damage seems like too many.  Too often you won't have a legit threat on the board and will be staring UU in the face on the other side trying to decide if the opponent has the Drain for Pillage/Wire.  I'd give up 2 Pillage for a total of 4 free metagame slots (Lavamancer/Miner/2 Pillage) that I would play 4 Pillars in, but I could see the case for Blood Moon or some Cursed Scrolls also based on metagame.  The Pillars would be my choice because I like to have at least a little game against everything, and the Pillars are the only thing that gives you a chance against Storm combo.

Last thought is, there's little that's more fun than Shrapnel Blasting a nearly dead Tangle Wire into 1/4 of the opponenents life total.  If any Scrolls or other artifacts make it into the deck, Shrapnel Blast is looking awfully strong.

[theorigamist]

Androstanolone, you're logic is horrible.  There is no replacement that comes out earlier and is, at the same time, better against aggro.  Actually, there is, but I'll get to it in a minute, and it's separate from your arguments.  You have used some of the worst logic ever, and, though I'm not intending to target you, I want to point it out because it is something that people do all the time and it always pisses me off.

All of the aggro decks can quickly outpace sligh in permaneants. TNT cranks out fatties so fast it's scary, madness can play threats during upkp as instants, or eot. O stompy will bazaar away with squees and simply outdraw the crap out of you. Sligh simply does not take full advantage of tangle wire, other decks can crank out perms faster. Stax takes full advantage of wire, it can drop it's whole hand and play draw 7's, stax will be happy to see wire, since it helps them tap you down. When staring a a couple sui chis in the face would you rather tap down their mana or draw some extra burn in hopes of ending the game before they can run you over?

This is mistaken logic centered around the assumption that every deck you face functions perfectly against your early disruption.  You ignore 4 Ports, 5 Strips, 12 Bolts, 3 Shaman and whatever early threats the opponent will have to deal with before they can start outpacing Sligh in permanents, crank out fatties "so fast it's scary," spend mana during the upkeep, all that other stuff you listed.  Basically, what this entire argument says is that Ric's deck will lose because by the time he plays Tangle Wire every other deck might conceivable be winning.  The faulty logic here is obvious.  You have to look at probabilities, not possibilities.  Is it possible TnT will drop Workshop, Mox, Su-Chi on turn 1?  Yes.  Is it probable, with 4 Workshops, 5 Moxes, and 4 Su-Chis?  Do the math.  I'm not particularly good with statistics, but I think it would be something like this (nCr=combinations of n things taken r at a time):

[(60C7)(4/60)+(60C7)(5/60)+(60C7)(4/60)]/(60C7)

(I think it's possible, after you cancel out the (60C7)s, the fractions should be multiplied, since you need all three of the cards and not any of the three.  I will leave this as it is, because this form of incorrect math will skew the results heavily against me, making my points that much stronger if the math still is in my favor.  Also, I'm not sure how to do it completely correctly.)  The equation is, more simply, 13/60 = .217 = 21.7% of the time that the TnT opponent will actually have that turn 1 Su-Chi.  To be fair, Jugs costs 4 and is therefore potential turn 1 fat as well, so 17/60 = 28.3% of the time.  This, of course, assumes that you, the Sligh player, have done nothing.  For that to be true, they won the die roll/coin toss/they're going first.  So multiply those percentages each by .5 to get either 10.8% or 14.2%.  I'll go with 14.2% for the rest of my calculations, because that makes the argument stronger in your favor (so if it's not strong on the upper end, it fails to hold water, period).

Now, look at the things this deck can do on turn 1: 4 Pup, 4 Lavamancer, 3 Mox Monkey, 1 Black Vise and 5 Strips (ignoring the random Black Lotus things that could happen).  That's 17/60 cards right there.  Also keep in mind that a turn 1 or 2 Rishadan Port (in addition to the 5 Strips, making 9 cards total) will stabilize a Workshop after one use.  Also keep in mind a chump block and burn/two burns/Pillage takes care of the TnT player's fat on turn 3, so you really need only take 8 damage or so from that fatty.  That means you can add 12 Bolts to your group of "anything that could stifle an early fat assault."  This leaves you with 33/60 cards (55%).  Keep in mind that as long as you can control the Workshops, the fatties stop being "[cranked] out...so fast it's scary."

So you mistakenly ignored the math for the possible.  What ended up happening is that you made Ric mad at you and you mistakenly shrugged off what looks like a very strong deck, in my opinion.  The math is very against you, and as this is a game largely of probability, you can't just ignore the numbers for what "will" happen according to deck's various gameplans.


Re: Pyrostatic Pillar.

I think 4 of these is the best thing you can possibly do for this deck.  Between Tangle Wires and Rishadan Ports they won't generally have mana to play anything more than 3cc.  On top of that, Pillar has great synergy with Black Vise (they're burned if they play the cards, burned if they don't).  Also, and this is most important, Pillar has ridiculous synergy with Tangle Wire.  It helps fill out your mana curve (and is the strongest possible replacement for Slith Firewalker by being a strong choice and the correct CC), it gives you another useless permanent to tap, and it burns the other guy.  Also of note, the CC is 1R instead of RR, making the mana base no longer such an issue.

[DURESSTHIS]

IM RUNNING A SIMALAR DECK BUT I ADDED MY OWN FLAIR



CREATURES:
4 MOX MONKEYS
4 HIPPYS


SORCERCYS:
1 DEMONIC TUDOR
4 HYMN TO TURROCK
4 DURESS
4CABALL THEROPYS
4 CHAIN LIGHTINGS

INSTANT
4 LIGHTING BOLT
4 DARK RITS

ARTIFACTS
4 TORMONTS CRYPTS
2 TANGLE WIRES
2 CURSED SCROLL

LANDS
4 BADLANDS
4 SULFRIOUS SPRING
3 WAITSLANDS
1 STRIPMINE
3 SWAMPS
3 MOUNTAINS


SIDE BOARD
4 PHYRXIAN NEGATOR
4 JACKAL PUPS
2 TANGLE WIRES
2 PERISH
3 ENGEIRING PLAIUGE

MY DECK WORKS GREAT I EVEN BEAT GABE WALLS WITH IT AT THE DARK STEEL PRELEASE  NO COMPLAINTS HERE WITH OUT THE POWER.

I deleted your other post for posting in all caps. That's not only a no-no here, but almost every other site on the internet. Please stop posting in all caps. I've already PM'd you a warning.

-Zherbus[/color]

[Ric_Flair]

@ Androstanolone:

First I am really tired of you clogging up this thread with your awful logic, pointless comments, and hostile berating tone.  I would prefer if you thought about what you said, said it in a constructive way, and stayed on topic instead of attacking me.  

Second, I really think that you need to playtest this deck.  I understand your point about the weakness of the Slith and the role of Tangle Wire, but playtesting a bit can help out.  I took notes of my matches this weekend and here is a sample opening hand:

1 Jackal Pup
1 Slith Firewalker
2 Mountains
1 Pillage
1 Port
1 Gorilla Shaman

Three or four turns into the game I drew a Tangle Wire.  

Here was my board when I cast it:

1 Jackal Pup
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Port
2 Mountains

I had a Pillage, a Wasteland, a Chain Lightning and a Bolt.

From the position I was in a good place to control the game.  I can cast Tangle Wire, pin down his permanents, then the next turn cut off a land.  Cutting off the land means that another permanent, a fattie or something else had to be tapped.  Then I Pillage another land, tap one an he still has 2 permanents to tap.  The Mox Monkey could eat those, leaving little else other than creatures to pin down.

This is just an example.  It was an admittedly good hand.  I was also playing against GPR, a deck I was thinking of when I put this together.  The thing is that in theory Tangle Wire is not that great (it is but the theory behind its greatness is subtle, apparently too subtle), but in practice it is a beating.  I can tap or blow up lands and artifacts.  My bolts handle weenies, leaving little else for Tangle Wire to tap other than fat creatures.  

The deck does lose automatically to combo, and hence I am going to test the Pillars, but testing is key.  I really think that people need to sit down and play with the deck.  I didn't do this in Extended and I got pummeled by RDW.  

Things to remember:

Against decks with man lands Port is 2/3 of an Icy for FREE

Tangle Wire taps 10 of their non-Tangle Wire permanents for 3 of yours

12 bolts is dangerous--they can clear the way for Sliths or go to the dome

Finally, one of the real objective here is to re-energize a deck that is ostensibly dead--Ankh Sligh.  Any way you cut it this deck is just better in today's metagame than Ankh is.  Simply put:  if you can build Ankh, build this instead--it is better.

Testing: Fetchlands to prevent late game mountain draws, though the thinning factor is much less than people think.

[theorigamist]

Two things:

1) I don' tknow if this deck can support life loss from suicidal Pillars and from fetchlands.  The deck is low enough on land that I think the Pillars are at least marginally more useful than fetchlands, so if you have to choose between the two, Pillars are better.  Pillars also help your worst matchup (combo) while fetchlands are just okay overall.

2) The more I look at this deck, the more I think 4 Grim Lavamancer, if any, is way too many.  You seem to want to maximize your permanent count so that Tangle Wires are better, but if you're using lots of permanents you will neuter Lavamancers.  I don't know what a replacement might be, but I think if you're looking to cut cards for any of the things you listed in your original post as other choices, Lavamancers would probably be the first to go (aside from that one random Dwarven Miner, which I also don't really like in this deck).  Cursed Scroll would probably make the best addition from your list of cards.  That also ups the permanent count, making Tangle Wires better, and it ups the burn count, making it a reasonable goal to put down a Slith first turn and then throw burn at blockers until it's huge.

[twn_domn]

Androstanolone is correct.

Both Ankh sligh and Tangle wire have been around for a long time.  People use ankh or piller instead of tangle wires for a good reason.  I am sure many of us and pros have considered tangle wires already.  

Sorry to burst the bubble, even with today's meta game, it's not worth it.

[Ric_Flair]

Both Ankh sligh and Tangle wire have been around for a long time. People use ankh or piller instead of tangle wires for a good reason. I am sure many of us and pros have considered tangle wires already.

Actually no one has bothered to even make the case that Ankh is better than Tangle Wire in this deck.  Not in this thread or the Ankh Sligh thread in the newbie forum.  So here is a narrow issue up for debate:  Is Ankh better than Tangle Wire in this deck?  I say no for the following reasons.

First the rise of the uber lands (Bazaar and Workshop) all but negate Ankh.  The idea behind Ankh was that in a long game with a control deck using fetches the life cost would eventually catch up with the control player.  This is no longer a primary issue because of the uber lands.  Workshop allows for so much mana and casts other things that produce mana that in essence it is three land drops in one for decks like TNT and especially MUD and wMUD.  So against Workshop Ankh is less effective.  And a similar story can be told with Bazaar.  Bazaar works in two decks: Dragon and Madness/O Stompy.  The issue with Dragon is an odd one because Ankh and shut Dragon down, but Dragon is usually too fast or too well protected (Deed and Force) to allow the Ankh to have its game ending impact in the Dragon matchup.  In short only a retard playing Dragon would get hurt by Ankh.  Most of the time however the Dragon player will use the Bazaar to search, get pieces in the 'yard, then nuke the Ankh and go off, or simply go off before Ankh hits the table.  Tangle Wire is no better here.  It cannot stop the combo, but merely slow it down.  That is, if the deck has not gone off first.  So I would give Ankh a slight but insignificant advantage in the Dragon matchup.  However the Bazaar aggro matchup seems to favor Tangle Wire a great deal.  These decks run heavily on lands and creatures.  The Tangle Wire/Port combination helps confine the explosiveness of these two decks.  There is the possibility that Madness goes off turn 2 (Andy is this still possible with the loss of LED?) but in that case Ankh does nothing either.  Furthermore because these decks are so effecient and run non land mana sources (Moxen in Madness and ESG in O.Stompy) Ankh effect is lessened even more.  Add to the fact that these decks are fine with 3 land, on being Bazaar, and Ankh is just a non-issue.  The fact that Ankh can't tie up non land permanents is another problem.  Thus in the aggro Bazaar matchups, I think Tangle Wire is superior.  In the Workshop matches Tangle Wire is better, but not a huge help (here the Ports pinning down Workshop are the msot helpful).

Second as the format becomes more and more based on lands (uber lands, man lands) the support cards in this deck, some of which are less than optimal in Ankh Sligh, make this deck far better.  Decks like GPR with Root Maze and man lands are nice fresh meat for the Tangle Wire/Port combination, whereas Ankh does hardly anything in these matchups.  One time shots of 2 damage to play a 3/3 attacker or a 2/2 attacker is not a winning formula.  Again this ignores the fact that Tangle Wire can tie up creatures too.  With the Ports in the deck the ability to outpace or control an opponent's land becomes a huge part of the game.  4 Ports, 4 Wastes, 1 Strip, and 4 Pillages make it an awfully hostile environment for opponent's lands.  3 Mox Monkeys and 4 Pillages nuke Moxen.  This leaves creatures for Tangle Wire to tap.  As such Tangle Wire can help in aggro matches where as Ankh does nothing.  The support cards in this deck are better in the current environment than the support cards in Ankh Sligh.  Cursed Scroll is undoubtedly a great card, but with the high number artifact removal seeing play now, this deck's support spells are better.  

In the end, I think that Vintage RDW, which is essentially what this deck is, is far better than Ankh Sligh in the current format.  Anything that Ankh Sligh can do, like run PoP, this deck can do and there are many things that this deck can do that Ankh Sligh cannot.  As a side note, if Ankh Sligh was burning up tournaments all over the place I would be less hesitant to operate on the deck and change things around this much, but it is not.  I cannot, for the life of me, understand people's reticence to try something new in a dead and losing deck.  And by "try" I mean actually play this deck against competitive Vintage decks, not sit back and take theoretical potshots at it.  Innovation is the heart of Magic, refusing to innovate or experiment is a recipe for failure.  Vintage RDW may not be the next Long.dec, but it certainly better in this metagame than Ankh Sligh.

[Blackest Lotus]

The issue with Dragon is an odd one because Ankh and shut Dragon down, but Dragon is usually too fast or too well protected (Deed and Force) to allow the Ankh to have its game ending impact in the Dragon matchup.  In short only a retard playing Dragon would get hurt by Ankh.  Most of the time however the Dragon player will use the Bazaar to search, get pieces in the 'yard, then nuke the Ankh and go off, or simply go off before Ankh hits the table.  

I am pretty sure Dragon does not care about Ankh, Dragon can still go off with Necromancy, or it can reanimate a Verdant Force or Sliver Queen and beatdown. I doubt Dragon is scared of Ankh anymore. (or really was for that matter)

[Ric_Flair]

I am pretty sure Dragon does not care about Ankh

Just to be absolutely fair and give all the pros of Ankh I had to mention the fact that Ankh does shut down the combo.  The lands that are removed from the game and then return from the game trigger Ankh damage, if I am not mistaken, thus with Ankh in play it is much harder for Dragon to go off.  The beatdown option is still there, but killing the combo makes the deck much, much less effective.  

That said, I stick by my analysis.  Vintage RDW is better than Ankh Sligh in the current metagame.

[Toad]

The Dragon player can still go off with Necromancy at the end of your turn. He needs an instant speed win condition to do that though, such as Ancestral Recall after milling your library. If he can do that, you'll die with millions of Ankh triggers on the stack.