Raven Fire
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« Reply #30 on: February 18, 2004, 09:05:32 am » |
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Well has anyone considered of cutting spiketails for Cloud of Faeries? Well, Faeries are one of the traditional creatures in Gay decks. What people seem to be considering is if it makes sense to cut them for the Hatchlings.
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Tijnie
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« Reply #31 on: February 18, 2004, 10:11:14 am » |
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in my eye's, this mono-u isn't more then just a bad illusion. ok I changed my mind  . I've been playing this deck for a few days now and it owned like... like whatever, it just owns. I didn't use PTW's list, here's my build: (note, I don't own time walk YET  ) Blue Neon, By Tijnie (maybe we should call this Lesbian Blue) Creeps // 14 4 Flying Men 3 Spiketail Hatchling 4 Suq'ata Fire Walker 3 Voidmage Prodigy Counter // 10 3 Daze 4 Force of will 1 Misdirection 2 Stifle Draw // 9 4 Curiosity 4 Standstill 1 Ancestral Recall Other // 3 3 Null Rod 24 // Mana 1 Black Lotus 1 Mox Sapphire 1 Library of Alexandria 1 Strip Mine 4 Wasteland 4 Mishra's Factory 3 Faerie Conclave 9 Island I didn't even tried the deck without Daze's since I know they are very powerfull and I don't feel like cutting them. This deck feels great, better then Gay/R, not sure but it feels more solid. It's obviously a better choice in a Meta full of Sligh, Landstill and other decks that use alot of burn and wastelands, I saw that fast enough. however is a bit slower for aggro decks since you can't go burn them on turn 2 for 2dmg. If you can live with that this deck is great. I like to pinch a Flying men on my FoW's, couldn't do that with a lavamancer and this manabase is really smooooth  . Ques I was wrong about this deck, it can be really strong and isn't far from gay/r. If it's a better deck depends on the player. If you're fully powered this might be better, for powerless players Gay/r is great since you still play 4 islands MD, enough to prevent mana-srcew. I didn't tried anything with my sideboard, but I don't think there will be a problem this mono-u sideboard can't handle. I'll be trying; BeB's, Masticore's, Maze's, Energy Fluxes, Null Rod, Crypts, Sigils of Sleep and maybe even Back to Basic... mix it al together and we can say this is a fine deck 
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Shikari
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« Reply #32 on: February 19, 2004, 05:34:14 am » |
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SPiketail gives you tempo advantage. Fish is a tempo deck. Spiketail good for fish. Fish likes spiketails.
^_^'
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Tijnie
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« Reply #33 on: February 19, 2004, 09:05:30 am » |
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I agree, Any-one playing less then 2-3 spiky's doesn;t know what Fish is al about, I think 3 is the right number to run. About single cards, can Sword of Fire and Ice be cool in fish?? we run like 7-8 Flying creature's wich often will come though, they'll be 3/3 Flying with a MAD ability (Shock, draw) and prod red/blue. right we can't target it with our own curiosity but in my eye's a creep like that with the counterbackup of fish means you will obviously win this match. It IS a bit slow I know, but can it be worth a try or am I just bull-shitting here??. EDIT, It doesn't have great synergy with the Rod's though  . Null Rod is so important to this deck that we can't even use it most of the time, I Answered my own question  . but more serious, maybe 2-3 SB slots?? for sligh and stuff we don't need Rods anyway right?
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Tim the Enchanter
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« Reply #34 on: February 19, 2004, 08:44:45 pm » |
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It occured to me, a large portion of the deck centers around land disruption - 5 strips, 3 stifles, 3 null rods - so has anyone tried abandoning the manland approach (giving more basics) and throwing bloodmoon into the mix? This wrecks landstill (until they resolve a disk) and pretty much ever other nonbasic based deck. All the while you keep the pressure with the actual creatures. This way you can keep the deck U/r, which IMO is the way it wants to be, and solve the mana issue - more basics. Now you say that this deck would have less creatures...true, but in the mirror this makes no difference - they have mountians instead of mishras now, vs other aggro decks it could be a little harder. A few fire/ice squeezed in could help out in the control department. On another note, wouldn't black vise be a nice way to get some more pressure in? Standstill + blackvise =  And can someone explain to me why rootwater thief isn't included anymore? It is a pre-emptive counter that can wipe out any deck that relies on 2-3 cards to win (keeper, dragon, etc.) Even if you don't use the ability its a 1/2 for 1U with a potential for evasion.
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LoA
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« Reply #35 on: February 19, 2004, 08:53:05 pm » |
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Blood Moon would really dilute the threats of this deck, dropping them by about a third. It would also lessen the impact of Standstill and weaken the manabase in a Wasteland/Stifle-heavy metagame. None of these are good for a deck that generally wants at least one threat on the table at all times. Finally, there are very few metagames out there in which Fish needs to be so concerned about the mirror that it tweaks its maindeck for that matchup. Rootwater Thief is a great card, but the problem with it in today's Fish is twofold. First, its crappy 1 power means it's as scary a clock for aggro decks as [card]Squire[/card]. Second, Fish has better things to do with its mana, be that activate manlands, cast Curiosity/Standstill/Null Rod or keep  open for Stifle (really key vs. a lot of decks today).
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Tanadan
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« Reply #36 on: February 20, 2004, 03:00:39 am » |
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Also, for two mana, Voidmage Prodigy's ability counters something the opponent can actually cast, whereas Rootwater Thief removes something that they may or may not draw, and there are fewer and fewer decks nowadays who are easily crippled by the removal of one or two cards from their decks a la Rector Trix.
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Tijnie
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« Reply #37 on: February 20, 2004, 09:32:05 am » |
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It occured to me, a large portion of the deck centers around land disruption - 5 strips, 3 stifles, 3 null rods - so has anyone tried abandoning the manland approach (giving more basics) and throwing bloodmoon into the mix? This wrecks landstill (until they resolve a disk) and pretty much ever other nonbasic based deck. All the while you keep the pressure with the actual creatures. This way you can keep the deck U/r, which IMO is the way it wants to be, and solve the mana issue - more basics. Now you say that this deck would have less creatures...true, but in the mirror this makes no difference - they have mountians instead of mishras now, vs other aggro decks it could be a little harder. A few fire/ice squeezed in could help out in the control department. On another note, wouldn't black vise be a nice way to get some more pressure in? Standstill + blackvise =  And can someone explain to me why rootwater thief isn't included anymore? It is a pre-emptive counter that can wipe out any deck that relies on 2-3 cards to win (keeper, dragon, etc.) Even if you don't use the ability its a 1/2 for 1U with a potential for evasion. The way you try to "fix" Gay/R's mana base, you're actually creating a complete new deck. maybe U/R Controll is a fine decklist for you  . about the black vise, I don't really like it, Standstill should be broken by the opponent, not by you. with the manlands, you're often the man that will be able to force his opponent in breaking that standstill. about sword of Fire and Ice, I'm starting to like that idea. Imagine, a Flying man (or whatever) with a curiosity and a Swords equiped. attack, deal 3 dmg, draw a card for Curiosity, draw a card for sword, then deal 2 dmg for sword and draw another card for curiosity. That's 5 dmg,+3 cards and you migt drop 2 dmg and a card to deal two damage to target creature (we also gain prot. Red/Blue). the mana-cost isn't a real problem and in the mono build it can come out really fast with lotus. If there's any deck this card can be used by I'm sure it is Fish, it has such great synergy with the deck (exept for the Null Rod)
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Tanadan
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« Reply #38 on: February 20, 2004, 12:47:55 pm » |
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about the black vise, I don't really like it, Standstill should be broken by the opponent, not by you. with the manlands, you're often the man that will be able to force his opponent in breaking that standstill. Black Vise is an excellent sideboard card against heavy control metagames (I can't count the number of times Phantom has said this). about sword of Fire and Ice, I'm starting to like that idea. If there's any deck this card can be used by I'm sure it is Fish, it has such great synergy with the deck (exept for the Null Rod) "Null Rod.dec" can't afford to lose its namesake card, which is simply too important in most (almost all?) metagames.
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Jacob Orlove
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« Reply #39 on: February 20, 2004, 02:29:00 pm » |
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If you want to run Equipment, Mask of Memory is the clear choice. Cutting Null Rod for that never worked out, though.
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Team Meandeck: O Lord, Guard my tongue from evil and my lips from speaking guile. To those who slander me, let me give no heed. May my soul be humble and forgiving to all.
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Tijnie
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« Reply #40 on: February 20, 2004, 05:14:37 pm » |
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but more serious, maybe 2-3 SB slots?? for sligh and stuff we don't need Rods anyway right? don't you guys ever sideboard and/or play in crappy beatdown meta's?? I've a Question to PTW, but if anyone else has an aswer go on. Gay/R counterbase 4x FoW, 3x Daze, 1x MisD. Mono-u counterbase 4x FoW, 2x Stifle, 2x MisD. WHYWHYWHY?? Stifle's are tech in Gay/r to take out wastelands, the mono version doesn't really need to. then in mono-u we play firewalker, and now we do need more MisD's?? why you have less creature's that can be the target. sorry but this doesn't really make any sense to me.
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jazzykat
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« Reply #41 on: February 21, 2004, 10:06:50 am » |
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OK, you people are definitely the fish people for the most part on this thread. I just played vs. Gay/r Fish at a local tourney, I was playing a slightly revamped steve 2k4 tog.
The only reason I won was because I dropped deed and killed about 5 creatures and 1 curiosity with it, before it was too late. Then I dropped the my toothy friend.
I was wondering what you were afraid of when playing vs. psycho tog, Against fish: I am worried most about: standstill, curiositied dorks, null rod, and midsdirection makes me uneasy casting ancestral so I normally do it with a counter back up.
I imagine fish shits themself when I drop Cookie Monster, or a deed but other than that I can't think of anything you are worried about.
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The Priory RIP: Team Blood Moon
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Shikari
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« Reply #42 on: February 21, 2004, 11:41:10 am » |
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*Cough* Stifle *Cough* Thief *Cough*
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HuntedWumpus
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« Reply #43 on: February 21, 2004, 01:13:30 pm » |
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Alright correct me if im wrong, becasue i havent piloted this deck too often, but it looks to me like there are three basic ways of going about this Arctype.
Standard GayFish: Lots of creeps w/out the voidmage. Generally packs the ability to be incrediably aggressive, and masticates its opponents rather than keeping any real board control. It appears that control has a field day with this build, not to mention sligh probably having a bit of fun.
GayFish With the Voidmage: Even if the mage is the only wizard, he packs beatings and the ability to have a edge on aggro by establishing quasi board control, basically enought to keep things going its way.
Now, until the massive popularity of Gay/R neither of the two precceding decks got too much playtime because of thier "Gay" appearance and the lack of being a really harsh threat.
Gay/R: Now comes the fun. The voidmage and Mancer together create a disgusting amount of Synergy and the deck began to run stupidly smoothly and flawlessly. I had lost to this deck several times and i have to say however annoying the deck may be, its incrediably good. Resolving a deed, or method of stoping the aquatic onslaught of creeps was stupidly hard, and there is a constant clock that ticks away very fast.
Wasteland was brought up earlier, and they made a very good point that taking out the red can slow the deck, however with the ammount of red sourc'es and draw they have i would not say they are crippled by any means. However, unless this is a early waste, and Gay/R has dropped ar red out of neccesity for mana, my guess and experiance is that the manlands are the primary target. Unless your lucky like me and generally have Nine LD spells at your disposal, I would think that most decl's first target is a Conclave or Factory.
So where is this deck going. Around my meta i has maintained its red splash even with all the LD. Its Mono the new "gayness"?
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If you haven't played "Hunt the Wumpus" then you can't really call yourself a gamer.
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Shikari
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« Reply #44 on: February 21, 2004, 09:52:45 pm » |
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but more serious, maybe 2-3 SB slots?? for sligh and stuff we don't need Rods anyway right? don't you guys ever sideboard and/or play in crappy beatdown meta's?? I've a Question to PTW, but if anyone else has an aswer go on. Gay/R counterbase 4x FoW, 3x Daze, 1x MisD. Mono-u counterbase 4x FoW, 2x Stifle, 2x MisD. WHYWHYWHY?? Stifle's are tech in Gay/r to take out wastelands, the mono version doesn't really need to. then in mono-u we play firewalker, and now we do need more MisD's?? why you have less creature's that can be the target. sorry but this doesn't really make any sense to me. Like I said, Fish is a tempo deck. That's why they are running daze, hatchlings and stuff. Stifle aids in tempo too. If you stifle their fetchlands, you gain a huge boost in tempo. Same goes for wastelands. Normally, you'll want to stifle a wasteland targetted on your manlands. And if you stifle their wasteland, you gain an upper hand in land count, though significantly less if u stifle their fetches. Stifle is also good against alot of other decks. Like Keeper, Mask and the mirror. STifle is also a bomb against most combo decks
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Hi-Val
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« Reply #45 on: February 21, 2004, 11:26:43 pm » |
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I have been running Goblin Vandals MD instead of Kai in gay red. Doesn't pitch to FoW, but it eats Spheres and Smokestacks, both of which annihilate the deck. When their tempo makers are better than yours, you need to worry.
Black Vise is also key. Run one if you have space.
And the way to stop Deed is to savagely rip one of the three Stifles in your deck and stop it! You run 5 Ancestrals, it shouldn't be hard to find one. And Null Rod + Wasteland makes the Tog matchup a bye, especially now that players are putting Mana Crypts in. Lightning bolt every other turn for free? That's some good.
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Team Meandeck: VOTE RON PAUL KILL YOUR PARENTS MAKE GOLD ILLEGAL Doug was really attractive to me.
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Tijnie
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« Reply #46 on: February 22, 2004, 08:07:41 am » |
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So where is this deck going. Around my meta i has maintained its red splash even with all the LD. Its Mono the new "gayness"? mono won't become the NEW gayness. I'm not sure if this deck will make it. More testig tells me another thing, this mono-thing is sooo fucking slow. Gay/R has more speed. Voidmage+Grim is faster counter then with the firewalker. this means you will have faster options to take cntroll of the board and swing for the win. You can shoot away creeps with Grim alot faster than firewalker can do (and some more creature's too since this is 2dmg) I found myself really unhappy in my sligh matchup with firewalker. It's just to dam slow (unless I draw Lotus) to keep up with all the threats coming out fast, with grim your agrro matchup feels alot better. Cloud of Faeries, I knew they were strong, but I found out there real strenght the moment I removed them from my deck. you play like 1 spell each turn, while normally it would be secong turn cloud, standstill or whatever. This lack of speed on turn 2 make's spiky's, curiosity's and standstill alot weaker and those are the cards we really want to use. Wasteland was brought up earlier, and they made a very good point that taking out the red can slow the deck, however with the ammount of red sourc'es and draw they have i would not say they are crippled by any means. However, unless this is a early waste, and Gay/R has dropped ar red out of neccesity for mana, my guess and experiance is that the manlands are the primary target. Unless your lucky like me and generally have Nine LD spells at your disposal, I would think that most decl's first target is a Conclave or Factory.
I'm not sure but with only 5 strips, I think they'll have a hard time screwing you and keep up there own play. With fetchies and stifle's I still believe getting screwed can be prevented (if they even try to screw you, like said manlands are often a target too) my conclusion, this mono thing needs work, Conclave's should obviously see play, but we can't really cut anything so this is going to be really fun  . Untill then, I'll stick with Gay/R.
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hillbilly
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« Reply #47 on: February 23, 2004, 12:25:17 pm » |
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I like the idea of having the wizards in the mono blue deck, I played the merfolk version and I found I was spending a lot of mana to give my creatures evasion. I also like the ability for voidmage to add more counters but I am concerned with the firewalkers casting cost. I was wondering if anyone had considered other wizards which are not only less mana to bring into play but less blue mana such as.
Tolarian Entrancer 1U - Wizard 1 / 1 Whenever Tolarian Entrancer is blocked by any creature, gain control of that creature at end of combat. Escape Artist 1U - Wizard 1 / 1 Escape Artist is unblockable. U, Discard a card from your hand: Return Escape Artist to its owner`s hand.
The entrancer will likely not be blocked which makes it a good curiosity target and if it is you don’t loose out much as you get their creature at end of combat to help cover your loss.
The artist is a good curiosity target as well (unblockable). If push comes to shove he might even be able to slow an attacker like a blinking spirit until you can find a better solution. Or he can dodge creature kill if needed.
I don’t know if anyone has done testing of these guys or are they just regarded as inferior to the firewalker.
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Hi-Val
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« Reply #48 on: February 23, 2004, 12:56:54 pm » |
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I think if you're going for Wizards, Thalakos Seer (UU, Shadow, 1/1, cantrips when it dies) is a better choice. The deck would have to get pretty damned good to be wizard-based though.
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Team Meandeck: VOTE RON PAUL KILL YOUR PARENTS MAKE GOLD ILLEGAL Doug was really attractive to me.
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Raven Fire
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« Reply #49 on: February 23, 2004, 03:33:16 pm » |
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Standard GayFish: Lots of creeps w/out the voidmage. Generally packs the ability to be incrediably aggressive, and masticates its opponents rather than keeping any real board control. It appears that control has a field day with this build, not to mention sligh probably having a bit of fun. Actually, the deck was designed to beat traditional control decks. There are so many weenies that they slip through the counters (and the man-lands can't be countered) and Lord of Atlantis is a bomb against Islands.
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Tijnie
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« Reply #50 on: February 24, 2004, 09:57:49 am » |
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I've treid Aphetto Alchemist once.
1U Wizard tap: Untap target Artifact or Creature Morph U 1/2
worked nice, Untap my Grim, shoot again (darw), Attacking (and blokking) 3/3-4/4 Mishra's.. 1/2 himself.. not really bad. Sac for voidmage counter. wasn't that bad, but spiky's fly and give you more speed, wich is just better then an aditional wizard.
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Lockdown
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« Reply #51 on: March 08, 2004, 08:28:18 pm » |
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Actually, just thought about this, Magus of the Unseen isn't bad. Metagame card, yes, but it helps out a lot against artifact based decks and is a wizard to sac to the Prodigy.
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