Proxy Discussion

[Kerz]

This is my mini-article: http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=267304#267304

I wanted to give basic users a chance to voice their minds. Discuss!

[RoadTrippin]

I think that one of the better ways to run a tournament is to allow power 9 proxies only. This way, players are still getting a good deal as they don't need to buy the most expensive cards for their deck- while the store owners/dealers/TO's are appeased because players will still buy cards from them, just not as much power. This is a fine compromise because the aforementioned TO's are going to make more money anyway by having a greater player core who enter into their vintage tournaments rather than stay away because they don't have the cards necessary to compete.

[Jakedasnake]

But, once again, what about the big unrestricted cards? Bazaars and Workshops are extremely hard to get, and cost from $75-120.

10 proxies seems sound IMO. Even if you are going to proxy Workshops, you can still proxy all of the Jewelry, meaning you can play Workshop.dec

Without 10, this deck is unplayable.

I completely agree with the thought that 5 proxie distorts the metagame, even though it makes players competetive. With 5 proxie, everybody ends up playing Hulk/Gro/Fish, which are all competetive decks. However, it would be much more exciting if people were also able to play Mask, Keeper, Workshop, Dragon, etc.

At the tournaments I run, I allow full proxie, and the metagame is extremely enjoyable.

Just my $.02

[Smash]

If you want proxy play magic workstation, if you want true magic, don't use proxies

I have ran tournaments before with 5 proxies, and I will continue to do so on occasion... but most players are happy with no proxies.

[FireFall26]

Good read, I totally agree ith 10 proxies, for the same reaosns you said. more players will come, which means more money for the store owners, so they shouldnt b reluctant to do it

[walter]

Proxies are a good thing, but too many can be bad.  I am relatively new to type 1, I guess it has been about 1 year now, and the prices have jumped so much that I fear I may never complete my set of power.  The five proxy rule is outdated.  It was a good rule a year ago when I bought my masks for $30 each but now everything is so much more expensive I think the limit should be increased to nine or ten.

On the same note I don't think that the limit should ever exceed ten possible proxies.  With ten proxies you can run almost anydeck and, more importantly, be competitive.  With ten proxies there is still insentive for new players to invest in type one.  Ten proxies also would cause new players to develope a connection to type one by lowering the entrance fee, but not eliminating it.  The feeling of playing with a real black lotus or set of drains is addictive, and will pull people into the format permanently.  The bond that investing in bigger cards creates between the individual player and the format is what makes type one so great, without it the community would be weakened and in constant flux, having people join then quit (like type two when urza's block rotated out) then pick it up whenever they feel like it.  Making vintage the same as any other format, just cooler of course .

[MarkPharaoh]

I really don't like the idea of using more then five proxies.  Yea, it would bring more players into game, but I think some would leave too.  I myself would not play as much in person if most tournaments had 10 or unlimited amount of proxies.  I worked hard for my Power and I honestly don't like it when someone can play the same exact deck as me while I put months of work into mine and they put five minutes into it to proxy it up (and before anyone says it, I mean time into aquiring the cards, not testing the deck).

[Jakedasnake]

Are petty jealousies worht keeping the Type 1 community from growing?

From my experience running the tournaments, people full proxie a deck maybe once, usually buying the commons/uncommons before hand. If they like the format, they make an investment, if they don't, they won't come back anyway.

Full proxie only brings people in, and the metagame is just so healthy because there is nothing holding people back from playing what they want to play.

[Mana Fixxer]

Here a solution (at least for a few of the older cards), which I have not seen proposed.  Why not allow the collector's edition of cards to be used in Type one tournaments, with opaque sleeves of course.  It would make some of these cards more accessable while not undermining the concept of a collectable card game.

In case you dont know the collectors edition are the cards that have square corners with a silver borders.

P.S. I own 4 of the P9 (just so you know where I am coming from).

CNB

[Klep]

I actually think that Zherbus's idea of allowing proxies from pre-Legends is pretty good. As he said, it would compensate for the unavailablility of those cards due to the small print runs, and let everyone have access to them.  And though I hate to just keep reiterating his points (they happen to be good ones),  Legends is a good cutoff point because there is a real jump in the availability of cards from that set due to the Italian runs.   True, things are still somewhat expensive, but the line has to be drawn somewhere, and the popular cards from legends are still nowhere near as expensive as the popular cards from earlier sets.  What are people really proxying all the time anyway?


-David 'Klep' Kleppinger, Raving Lunatic

[Smash]

Here a solution (at least for a few of the older cards), which I have not seen proposed.  Why not allow the collector's edition of cards to be used in Type one tournaments, with opaque sleeves of course.  It would make some of these cards more accessable while not undermining the concept of a collectable card game.

In case you dont know the collectors edition are the cards that have square corners with a silver borders.

P.S. I own 4 of the P9 (just so you know where I am coming from).

CNB

CE cards are still expensive, seems like a waste of money for people who might like to play in real t1s like vintage worlds2k4. You are better off buying 1 real power than 4 fake power.

Also, even in sleeves - the corners can lead to some shuffling magic if you aren't careful.

[MarkPharaoh]

Jake: I'm sorry, but from the way you posted you make it sound like i'm jealious, please tell me how I am jealious to people who DON'T own power unlike me who does?  Jealious because they paid a fraction of the cost to play the same deck?  Thats not the word I would use...

I know a lot of people who would play T1 if they would be allowed unlimited proxies and I know that even if they like it, they won't put an investment into a format that doesn't have GPs and PTs.

[Methuselahn]

I don't really care.  I'll play Magic anyway.  It would be nice to have either option.  Albeit proxies take the 'collectable' out of Collectable Card Game.

Maybe I'd rather just be disgruntled at the DCI.  

1. They make a reserve list so that the power and such will retain their monetary value.  

2. The reserve list then in turn, kills the format because cards are too rare/expensive to find to be worth holding truly competitive events for. (the sanctioned side of it anyway - which is what they have to support seeing as how their vision is for collectability)

3.  Since there is no truly competitive, sanctioned tournies, wouldn't the value of the power cards eventually drop?  As popularity of the format increases, proxies are inevitable, thus eliminating the need for real cards.

4.  Therefore, does TMD.com kill the value of power?  hilarious.  Ok, it's late and I'm done. [/rant]

[raye]

I have a concern about too allowing too many proxies. If the most powerful current decks were suddenly defaulty allowed, would development of new decks be hurt? Would players currently constrained by budgets continue to try developing new decks that are effective without all the power cards?

Take a deck like Gay Fish. Would this deck have enjoyed all the effort that went into its development and maturity into all the current variants if no one wanted to run such a deck because they were all playing TPS or whatever hot new deck now because all the money cards can be proxied?

I do believe that necessity is the father of invention and if the necessity was not there the invention of decks might never take place. In the recent tourney at Columbus, one of my companions decided to play Hulk because he could proxy the whole thing instead of his usual R/G aggro deck as it was unlimited proxies. If he and every other R/G aggro player could now play Hulk, would anyone keep working to improve R/G aggro? This might be a bad example as many folks couldn't care less if R/G aggro never improved but what of all the other decks that could be contenders?

While I am in favor of a generally accepted set of guidelines for proxies, I think we would be wise to approach it with caution as to not have the unintended effect of stifling the development of decks that don't run every available money card.

[Rane]

I say keep proxies at 5.  True 10 would bring more players to the format, but then why not 20?  Why not 50?  Hell just go 75.  Don't bother buying magic cards anymore, just print them of your com.  I know I'm strecthing the situation but that's the reality, drawing the line at P9, or Legends or whatnot may seem fine at first, but ultimatly the people who own power deserve them whilst others do not.  If any hard to get cards were proxyable, then why would anybody buy them.  Buy only allowing 5 proxies people can get a taste of competitive Type 1 without just getting an auto-win deck.  Then they can go out and buy those cards for real if they want to improve their decks so badly.  More than 5 proxies is beyond 'testing' it's blatant replacement for something which you don't want to fork out the cash for.

And no I'm not being stubborn, I own NO P9 or bazaars, drains and probably no cards over duals.  I am speaking for the people who take T1 seriously and could afford power and family and went out and bought it.

[ize]

Do you think a person has more right to a Lotus than another person, just because he has more money? I don't. And I don't believe that allowed proxies would kill the format or the prices - after all, there is always a lot of people out there, who, for some reason, thinks that Magic cards has any relation to collectibles or such  

In the end, what would you rather have? A good metagame or a good collectible?

And about the argument about the meta turning out to be all long.dec or all TPS or all whatever - where I play, most people have full P9, LoA, Drains etc etc ... however, even when long.dec was at it's fullest, it wasn't metagame dominant. Why is that?

In my opinion, it all boils down to the fact that decks are mirrors of people - some people are always going to play keeper, no matter the meta, und so weiter.

From here, you will only hear a great and resounding "yes!" to proxies. Yes to equal oppurtunities, yes to test of skills and not money.

/ize

[Whippoorwill]

Personally, I like the idea of allowing proxies if it means the format will gain more players.  At first, I thought the 5/10 limits were good, but Zherbus brought up a good idea in that only pre-legends cards could be proxied.  That way players would have actually get some of the staples like FoW rather than just proxying them.  

The only thing I don't like about the pre-Legends proxy idea is that some would probably proxy cards like Sinkhole which aren't expensive imo.  Maybe another possible idea would be to allow proxies of cards that are priced over a certain limit ($60 for example).  Just a thought.

[Rayden]

i'd like to press forward that it isn't good cards that makes a good player. i also don't think that the max limit of proxies should go above 5 this is because i actually expect people to attain SOME of their tourney deck cards themselves. decks like keeper don't work without all the power and if person A which is a good player doesn't have a Time Walk he should be allowed to proxy it otherwise his deck would be dysfunctional.

[Yawgmoth]

I, myself, am a broke college student that plays Block, Standard and a small amount of Extended. I can't really afford to play this game as it is, and have survived via trading a lot. It's really the only way Im able to keep up the pace.

As for T1, I have really only played it casually, though I have a few friends that are much more serious about it. Once in a while for fun Ill proxy up some T1 deck just to see how it is... not for the purpose of playtesting for a tournament, but just to play it for fun.

If I for some reason actually wanted to play in real T1 events, it would be impossible for me to play anything other than, say, unpowered Stompy and Sligh. Don't get me wrong... these decks are fun, but I wouldnt want to play in a format where I can really only build 2 decks. I suppose if I worked very hard I could probably obtain some dual lands, force of wills, etc... but still I would never get to the point where I could get things like power, workshops, and mana drains just because I do not have that kind of money to spend.

With a 10 proxy tournament, it would be a much more feasible idea for me to play T1 because I could work towards getting stuff like duals (which would be a big effort in itself), and then be able to sub in proxys for the rest of the stuff I simply cannot get through trading.

[Arrg]

It has to be 5. It can not go beyond that for both the health of the metagame and to keep both player groups happy. If you allow 0 proxies all the budget players are really pissed and the not so budget players are happy. At 10 the people who pitched out 3 grand for their power are saying "Well fuck why did we waste that 3k" While budget players are happy. 5 is a happy medium that neither side is totally happy with but can live with.

[MarkPharaoh]

I pretty much agree with what Arrg said.

[cssamerican]

I see that some people in the members forum are advocating a policy of anything pre-legend can be a proxy. Wouldn't the simplest rule that would automatically evolve with time is to say you can proxy any card that is from a set that has rotated out of extended. That means any card that is in an extended legal set you have to buy. For example if an older card was reprinted you have to buy the card you can't proxy it. This keeps people buying new cards, but at the same time takes care of problems associated with older cards becoming to scarce for the average person to buy. And this policy could be a permanent standard that doesn't need updating five years from now. This is just my opinion.

Arrg rememeber this is just a general consensus policy for unsanctioned events, that means any Worlds Championship events held by Wizards of the Coast would still not allow any proxies. This alone would keep the value of the old cards very high. Think about people who win tournaments with proxies, they will have the confidence that they can compete on the World Championship level. So they will want to buy the real cards so they can go to those events.

I have also heard people who said it will ruin metagames, that is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. It is imposible to ruin metagames by putting everyone on a even playing field when it come to deck and card selection. In my local metagame  (Just me and a few friends) we allow proxies of anything, and it is fun as hell. If you lose it is because you brought the wrong deck or you made poor card choices, but without question you loss due to your lack of skill that day, not because you haven't played Magic when it first started or you dont make a lot of money in your private life. So I think anyone who says it will ruin the metagame is someone who feels he is on top because he has the superior card pool in which to get the cards needed to win.

And as far as people proxying cheap cards that are old I don't see anything wrong with that either. It doesn't hurt WotC or the future of the game. And if you want to play in a sanctioned event you can't use proxies anyway, so you will have to buy them. And most people will want to play in sanctioned events eventually, especially if they are winning unsactioned ones.

[Jacob Orlove]

SPEAK NOW UNTO THE (hijacked) TMD ORACLE:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
kl0wn: "Any "Spike" who plays Type 1 is a complete imbecile when it comes to time/money management. Yeah. Read that again. Now make sure to strap on the foam helmet before going to the bank. And go get yer fucking shinebox while you're at it."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[jazzykat]

For tournament organizers, and for players who want to enter I think that 7 proxy tournaments, would be reasonable. I like 7 because people would still have to buy some power cards, but it keeps pace with the 60-75% increase in prices over the past year(making it about the same cost to enter competively).

Also, if someone thinks that 9 proxies is too little because you'll be one mox short of your workshop.dec, I am not crying for you. Having one or two pieces of power, is not that hard to get. Sell, all your T2 stuff, or just play one mox short! (hell I have played keeper with no proxies 2 moxes and a timewalk short, and have been successful....WARNING: DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME) Or ante up and get drains, or a few of the cards you need, this is the only format that even allows proxies.

I want this game to be enterable for people and I would love the idea of unlimited proxies if I ran a tourney (think of how many people would enter..mmmm...$$$$$$)

[Dr. Sylvan]

SPEAK NOW UNTO THE TMD ORACLE

SPEAK NOW UNTO THE (hijacked) TMD ORACLE:

TMD ORACLE: "It's the craze that's sweeping the continent--Mongolian hordes!"

At 10 the people who pitched out 3 grand for their power are saying "Well fuck why did we waste that 3k"

TMD ORACLE: "Give 'em some cocaine!"

any Worlds Championship events held by Wizards of the Coast would still not allow any proxies.

TMD ORACLE: "It's been too long since we've recognized the crown."

[Danzig]

Their should be a set list of specific cards to proxy from sets before Legends.

[Moxlotus]

I feel that 6 is a good number-it is 10% of your deck.
6 will let anyone play Fish, Oshawa, Landstill.
Buy a few more and you can play any deck you want.

[carl]

It has to be 5. It can not go beyond that for both the health of the metagame

I don't get it? Do you think that the metagame should be castrated by card availability?

If you allow 0 proxies all the budget players are really pissed

That I  can understand.

and the not so budget players are happy.

So, do you think that since I own the cards I want to play against weak decks because other players can't buy them?

At 10 the people who pitched out 3 grand for their power are saying "Well fuck why did we waste that 3k"

I am sure they won't have a problem selling their cards if they feel like that.

5 is a happy medium that neither side is totally happy with but can live with.

No. I am not happy because I can't get my matches reported to the DCI. I am not happy because I will face frustrated players because they have to choose their decks within a smaller card pool than mine.

What I would suggest is the following:
Organise DCI sanctioned tournies (no proxies) and non sanctioned tournies (any number of proxies).
This way, you can organise title events (any Championship you want, big prizes) DCI sanctioned and smaller tournaments (like FNM) with proxies so anybody can give a shot at Type I.

There is also another thing you can do to encourage players without power cards to play in your no proxies tourney: special prize for the best place with a non-powered deck (I've always done it in my DCI sanctioned events).

I have a concern about too allowing too many proxies. If the most powerful current decks were suddenly defaulty allowed, would development of new decks be hurt? Would players currently constrained by budgets continue to try developing new decks that are effective without all the power cards?

Of course they wouldn't. Do people try to build the best deck in T2 with cards from one block only?

[Shade]

What does everyone think about allowing Collector's Edition?  It's become very scarce in it's own right, and would be just as playable as Alphas (would require sleeves).  Plus, they're kind of "official proxies" produced by Wizards themselves.

[Nameless]

Do you think a person has more right to a Lotus than another person, just because he has more money?

Erm...  Lemme' think here...  Yes.

OK, nothing else is directed specifically at you Ize.  

There are plenty of people in my area that have a Lotus or other peices of 'power', and they don't make jack shit for wages.

This goes out to anybody who was lazy enough to agree with some lame ass 10 proxy rule, too...  Save your damn money.  If you want something, save for it.  People cry about how it's so expensive to get into Vintage, then they turn around and blow a few hundred bucks over the course of a month or so playing in drafts and picking up cards for Standard.

What the fuck is up with that?

Here is a fact you need to settle into and realize:  Vintage is IN FACT the cheapest format to not only stay current in but, in the long run, to get into.  The average Magic player will spend more money playing in drafts and keeping up with Standard over a year then it would take to buy all the power you needed.

That last aspect isn't even touching on the fact that you don't need every damn peice of power to begin with!  Who the hell actually plays all of the power?  Maybe, what, Long.dec?  Oh, that deck is dead?  You don't need all of them for fucks sake.

So be smart.  Focus on the deck you need them for and set your sights in saving money.

So then we are back to where I started...  YES peole with more money should be the ones with the Lotus.  They have more money because they saved it.  If guys I know can work that are working in crap jobs not making hardly anything, and living on thier own, can afford to save up and get a peice they want from time to time, then what the hell is the excuse for the rest of you?

I'll tell you what it is, in most cases...  It's easier to piss and moan and cry about it, and then turn around and draft, so you get enjoyment NOW NOW NOW rather then just saving up that money and buying the Ancestral you wanted in the first place.  And...  If having that Ancestral DOESN'T give you at least as much pleasure and fun as all those missed drafts would have, then I suggest you pick a new format because Vintage isn't for you.

Vintage is becomming more popular, but not in any way shape or form from Wizards.  Shit, they have completely stopped having Vintage at the invitationals now.  Isn't that a big clue?  There are far more peices of power still floating around peoples hands then there are serious Vintage players, you just have to look for them.

And as long as I'm talking about accesibility...  I have a good friend named Josh that I played Magic with for quite a long time.  He managed to collect every peice of power he needed/wanted with the sole exception of a Timetwister.  How did he do this amazing task?  He drafted a lot, and saved up rares and did something truly amazing...  He traded at prereleases, GPTs, PTQs, and the like.  Yea, he TRADED!  God forbid!  He would make several trades, and at these events, when he ran across a peice of the puzzle he needed, he'd just trade for it using his more valuable cards that were hot in Standard.  I watched him trade off half a dozen Call of the Herds for a Mox Emerald once.  Yes, a Mox Emerald.  And it was a good deal for both of them!  He got what he wanted, and the other person was easily able to trade them back off, within minutes, for the cards he was looking for.

In other words, if you have some descent cards and are willing to work at it, you don't need tons of cash, you CAN get what you want!

This leads me to my final point...  If you don't have the cash to buy the power, and you don't want to spend countless hours trading to get them, then what the fuck are you doing crying about why you don't have them?  A white light isn't going to shine down from heaven and grant you a Mox.  Get off your collective asses and earn it, and if you don't want to then quit pissing and moaning because you don't have one to play with.