Is Rector Trix still viable ?

[Didor]

Rector Trix is a deck I really like, mainly for its good disruption and (quite) quick combo. Nevertheless, It seems that its announced success didn't quite happen.
It wasn't fast enough to compete against Long, and its weak mana base makes it a little weak in a wasteland-filled metagame.
So , do you think that this deck is still viable, or is its time definitively over?

[BouncingBeeble]

Rector trix could very well be viable again, with the rise in aggro decks such as TNT and Big O, the decks ability to combo out and gain 20 life at the same time seems a rather good reason to play it in an aggro heavy field (same reason to play any type of combo). On the other hand the deck has the ability to play control with its various counters and discard between force of will, duress, cabal therapy, and mana drain. The wasteland issue is still there, and the only solution I can suggest is to run 2-3 maindeck stifle.

[Zbot]

Rector Trix could be potentially viable, yes. But I would rather stick to academyesuqe combo. Rector is very vulnerable to graveyard hate, and it has severe consistancy issues. After having the deck crap out on me too many times, I put it down and switched to something else.

[Toad]

Rector Trix would still be good if Wasteland, Gorilla Shaman, Chalice of the Void, Trinisphere, Null Rod, Tormod's Crypt and Stifle had not been everywhere.

[TheFram]

I think that, tough Rector/Trix has some advantages, the general consensus at gencon time was the Rectal Agony was the better deck b/c of it's secondary Draw7 Engine. I would not be surprised to see Rectal Agony do well since it has multiple paths to victory, and can win through an opponent sitting on Coffin Purge and double black, unlike Rector Trix.

For reference, here is the last Rectal Agony list I played about 2 months ago

Rectal Agony
by TheFram

The Combo - 11
4 Academy Rector
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Necropotence
1 Future Sight

The Win - 2
2 Tendrils of Agony

Disruption - 8
4 Duress
4 Brainstorm

Draw7 Engine - 5
1 Timetwister
1 Memory Jar
1 Tinker
1 Windfall
1 Mind's Desire
1 Yawgmoth's Will

Search - 3
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

Mana - 31
4 Dark Ritual
3 Chromatic Sphere
1 Helm of Awakening
4 Underground Sea
2 Scrubland
3 Glimmervoid
4 Flooded Strand
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Chrome Mox
5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Lotus Petal

Chromatic Sphere and Glimmervoid dramatically increase access to white, with only minimal white sources, and no real draw-backs. Spheres also make Ritual-Rector much more viable, since you dont need an extra white source to cast the Rector. The singleton Helm is pretty usefull to negate Sphere of Resistance or as a inker target to chain sheap spells until we hit a Tendrils. Helm is replaceable, but i wanted a third tinker target other than lotus. Future Sight is an excellent draw seven-esque option. It will win the game if it resolves and stays for a turn, since you will chain into a large tendrils fairly easiy. FS + Draw 7's and Necro gives the deck a semblance of a mid game.

It's a pretty stable and powerful combo deck, and goes off turn 2 with alot of regularity.

-Thefram

[Didor]

Your deck looks fine, although I would prefer the ability to play Force of Will over draw 7's.
Still, one thing seems strange here: didn't you find the room for an Ancestral Recall ? It seems to me that cheap draw would have fit perfectly the tendrils plan...

[Mixing Mike]

In addition to what Toad wrote, you'll also run into hate incoperated into decks for other decks that will just run over you.  In the right metagame I can see Rector coming back, but not in the 'General Type I Metagame'.

[TheFram]

That was my list w/ 5 proxies and 2 borrowed cards, sorry, just copied from appr and formatted. Twister+extra mox was better for the deck than recall+walk.

[Rico Suave]

To answer the original question, there's not much point in playing Rectors in combo nowadays.

If you're going to the extent that TheFram is going, Rector is a poor choice.  You'd be better off playing Neo-Long.

If you plan on playing the original Rector-Trix base, that became obsolete soon after GAT left the environment, since GAT was a favorable match-up.  Trying to update it isn't going to get you anywhere, trust me.

[Wollblad]

I think you are too harsh on the Rector decks. I can only agree that the Tendrils version is better, although I think the FoW-version is far superior to The Frames list. The deck has favourable matchups against Tog, GaT (there are actually a few), Keeper and all form of aggro with possible exception of TnT. It's vorst matchups are probably Stax, Mud and U/w fish, but all of them very well possible to win. All other matchups are about 50-50 or slightly better. The last tornament I played I met 2 Stax and one Stacker 3, the last one had both Chalic and Pyrostatic Pillar in maindeck. I lost to one Stax and humiliated the other two, totally 5-2 in games.

As toad wrote, there are many potential threats for the deck, but it can often outrun these and often peple just sideboard in graveyard hate and somehow forget that it's perfectly possible to just tutor for and play Bargain or Necropotence.

[Toad]

Rector Trix only have a favourable matchup against Keeper when Keeper is piloted by inferior players.

[Rico Suave]

I think you are too harsh on the Rector decks.

Was that directed at me?

[Dr. Sylvan]

Rector Trix only have a favourable matchup against Keeper when Keeper is piloted by inferior players.

And as we all know, everyone who brings Keeper to a tournament does sufficient playtesting and didn't just netdeck rakso's list. *grumblegrumble* ;)

The immense Dragon hate kept Rector decks down in January, and hopefully will in the future as well.

[Wollblad]

@Rico Suave
Not specifically, the comment just reflects on the generally negative attitude towards Rector decks that I feel is expressed in this thread. Sure it's vulnerable to hate like all combo decks are, but its rich content of disruption gives it, at least in my belief, an advantage compared to most other combo decks.

@Dr. Sylvan
There is a big difference though. Rector decks don't die when they get there combo interrupted. They can start over again or just ignore the combo and win anyhow. But still, you're re right that every deck have sideboard cards against the deck even though they don't expect it, so you cannot rule a turnament just by catching all other players of there guard.

[Smash]

I think that, tough Rector/Trix has some advantages, the general consensus at gencon time was the Rectal Agony was the better deck b/c of it's secondary Draw7 Engine. I would not be surprised to see Rectal Agony do well since it has multiple paths to victory, and can win through an opponent sitting on Coffin Purge and double black, unlike Rector Trix.

That is a load of horseshit. The only people who came to that conclusion were people who have no idea how to play magic (like videogameboy) and had a biased/uninformed opinion. I played rector trix in side events at gencon, and it was pretty clear traditional rector trix was doing MUCH better than tendrils.

The tendrils engine was strickly worse than the standard rector trix engine.

Yes, if every deck sits on coffin purge and double black, rector trix isn't the deck to play. But, if you manage to hardcast a necro or bargain, you will still win. You can even side in stuff like crypt or swarm if you want ways to stop the purge. (Most players will side out all/most removal vs. trix. If you go for the slightly worse manabase, you can bring in 4 swarms and suprise them). Not to mention, without using rector, you have a VERY hard time playing your 9 spells to make tendrils lethal. I would say it is easier to pay 5UU and just hard-combo them out.

Wastelands are much less of a problem than with dragon. You don't need a bazaar and a mana source out, all you need is mana in your pool. With 4-6 fetchlands, you can pretty often sit on the fetchland until turn 2. Usually, 2 lands is plenty to get the combo off that turn.

On top of that, you can bust through a lock deck. I have comboed out game1 with a sphere in play, and an active wire (gencon).  You simply cannot do this with a storm based deck unless you have crap like maindeck recall.


There is actually an interesting 5 color trix deck I got from one of the crazy combo players in Italy, that is fairly interesting. I would have to even rate this above the tendril's decks.


I am not sure how it would do in the current metagame - my impression is that you need the swarms to fight the gy/enchantment from dragon hate, but with them it would at least be a fair combo deck. I have been playing TnT lately for the face beating pleasure, so I am a little behind on how it does these days.

[Rico Suave]

@Rico Suave
Not specifically, the comment just reflects on the generally negative attitude towards Rector decks that I feel is expressed in this thread. Sure it's vulnerable to hate like all combo decks are, but its rich content of disruption gives it, at least in my belief, an advantage compared to most other combo decks.

Given my history with the deck, I hope you'll be open-minded when I say that there is are good reasons to be negative about Rector decks.  Let me ask you some questions, and hopefully in trying to answer these questions you'll learn why Rector isn't as good as you're hoping it to be.

Firstly, what do Rector decks do against prison?  Trinisphere destroys you, Sphere is a huge pain, and I don't see how a Tendrils build even has a chance, considering they can't really support Force.  Trix is better here, but with the advent of Chalice and Trinisphere I don't think it's a good match like it was a long time ago.  I think it's a nightmare.  

Secondly, in general, what do you do if your opponent goes first?  When your opponent drops hate on their first turn, you don't have a rich content of disruption, you pray that you might have Force online.  Then you pray your opponent doesn't have two hate cards.  

Third, TnT decks maindeck Blood Moon and Pyrostatic Pillar.  While TnT was a good match a long time ago, these new cards give them an edge to take a good percentage of the first games.  After boarding, the numerous SB options they most likely have against Dragon all work against you, too.  While it's not a bad match, a combo deck should not struggle like this against aggro.  

Fourth, when Rector Trix first hit the scene there was minimal mana denial because TnT was all the craze.  Trix would wreck control, and it would still dominate aggro.  Since it had an edge against GAT, it was a wonderful choice at that time.  Then mana denial went right back into Keeper as a reaction, and suddenly the matches are very close.  Keeper is even more difficult now, because they run Stifle to further that approach.  Tog is actually not that bad, although if they run multiple Coffin Purge you will have troubles.  

Lastly, the advent of FCG, Stacker3, Spoils Mask, and Dragon mean that you can't be confident that you're still going to be able to outrace your opponent even in goldfishing.  I'm not satisfied with the speed of Rector anything in terms of how fast it wins, and it obviously struggles with consistency too.

At this point, you'll notice that Rector decks struggle against every part of the field.  People woke up and aren't playing junk like Ankh Sligh anymore.

[Smash]

Who CARES about cotv. For 0 it stops some moxen. For 1 it stops duress and some mana, but therapy still kills the rector as needed. It doesn't stop the combo unless they put 6 or 8 mana into it.

There are always going to be people playing sligh, even in 60 proxy wuss tournaments.

[Rico Suave]

Chalice set at 1 stops 21 cards.  Don't tell me this crap that shutting down 30% of their cards isn't going to stop the combo.  

And you know what?  Chalice is only one card.  Perhaps you'd like to touch on the qualities of what Trinisphere does to this deck, and somehow make it look like it doesn't wreck the deck either.  Prison is a terrible match, however you look at it.  

Yes, people will still play sligh.  How is that stopping you from beating it with any good combo deck?

[Dr. Sylvan]

Romance-language speakers seem not to have gotten the message that Rector sucks. Here's the three Top 8s so far since the January total absence of Rector decks:

2004-01-18 Barcelona http://www.morphling.de/coverages/top8decks.php?id=93 (52 players)
1. Rector Tendrils
2. Gobvantage
3. Gobvantage
4. Slavery (non-Workshop)
5. Hulk Smash
6. MUD (monoBrown)
7. SuperGro
8. Rector Trix

2004-02-08 Pavia http://www.morphling.de/coverages/top8decks.php?id=97 (53 players)
1. Stax
2. Keeper
3. TPS
4. TPS
5. Rector Tendrils
6. Madness
7. Vengeur Masque
8. Iso-GAT

2004-02-08 Dulmen http://www.morphling.de/coverages/top8decks.php?id=99 (93 players)
1. MadDragon
2. BUg Hulk Smash
3. Dragon
4. KrOathan Keeper
5. Goblin Sligh
6. BUg Hulk Smash
7. UR Stacker
8. Stax

Just to inform the debate a little. Though it is telling that only the smaller tournaments were subjected to comborifficness. :)

[Rico Suave]

Aside from Barcelona, those are examples of why other combos are better than Rector-based combo.

As far as Barcelona goes, let's take a look at why Rectors won.  Look at the top 8, there are 2 sligh decks, another Rector deck, some weird artifact Workshop, and 3 control decks (they all play the match out as control, at least).

Looking strictly from an overall point of view, that meta is the same one that was existing when Rector Trix first hit the scene.  You had a bunch of people who refused to stop playing sligh, you had prison decks without all the bombs they are able to run today, and you had control decks without mana denial.

I guess if the metagame resembles a year old metagame, then Rectors will do fine.  

The ultimate question is why play Rectors when it's possible to play Dragon.  Dragon would have rocked the same top 8, am I not right?

[Wollblad]

Firstly, what do Rector decks do against prison?  Trinisphere destroys you, Sphere is a huge pain, and I don't see how a Tendrils build even has a chance, considering they can't really support Force.  Trix is better here, but with the advent of Chalice and Trinisphere I don't think it's a good match like it was a long time ago.  I think it's a nightmare.  

Secondly, in general, what do you do if your opponent goes first?  When your opponent drops hate on their first turn, you don't have a rich content of disruption, you pray that you might have Force online.  Then you pray your opponent doesn't have two hate cards.  

Third, TnT decks maindeck Blood Moon and Pyrostatic Pillar.  While TnT was a good match a long time ago, these new cards give them an edge to take a good percentage of the first games.  After boarding, the numerous SB options they most likely have against Dragon all work against you, too.  While it's not a bad match, a combo deck should not struggle like this against aggro.  

Fourth, when Rector Trix first hit the scene there was minimal mana denial because TnT was all the craze.  Trix would wreck control, and it would still dominate aggro.  Since it had an edge against GAT, it was a wonderful choice at that time.  Then mana denial went right back into Keeper as a reaction, and suddenly the matches are very close.  Keeper is even more difficult now, because they run Stifle to further that approach.  Tog is actually not that bad, although if they run multiple Coffin Purge you will have troubles.  

Lastly, the advent of FCG, Stacker3, Spoils Mask, and Dragon mean that you can't be confident that you're still going to be able to outrace your opponent even in goldfishing.  I'm not satisfied with the speed of Rector anything in terms of how fast it wins, and it obviously struggles with consistency too.

You actually don't need neither Bargain, nor Necro. Most of the abovementioned problems are taken care of by main decked Form of the Dragon. If they do find hate like Chalice, Null Rod, Shpere of Resistance and you find no way to deal with them, use FotD, otherwise combo them out. The unstable mana base is a problem, but the mana base can actually support one basic Island and one basic Swamp, sure Blood Moon gives you problems, but since you have mana to find FotD and plenty of tutors, you'll find it and all Mountains gives you the mana to play it. Otherwise you do still have 3 white mana sources to cast Rector.

I seldom find it hard to support FoW. I have 14 blue cards including FoW. We have actually tried to go down to 12 and then it still works in most cases, but then it is too unstable. 13 is also playable. One of the blue cards is actually Hurkyl's Recall which can deal with various artifacts. And what combo deck doesn't have problem with first turn hate? But this deck has both FoW and various path's to victory. That goes for no other combo deck.

Graveyard hate is not that awsome either. Then just cast Necro or Bargain and win. OK, if some deck has all of the abovemention hate, there will be trouble and as I have said before, Mud and Stax is the worst mathups. No other deck has all of it and they do have to find it and get it through all disruption that you have. I don't know how you play this deck, but Stifle has never been a problem. Thay just don't get to keep it until it's needed and tog is a 90-10 matchup since no-one runs more than one Coffin Purge these days and it's far too slow to wish for it.

[Rico Suave]

You actually don't need neither Bargain, nor Necro. Most of the abovementioned problems are taken care of by main decked Form of the Dragon. If they do find hate like Chalice, Null Rod, Shpere of Resistance and you find no way to deal with them, use FotD, otherwise combo them out. The unstable mana base is a problem, but the mana base can actually support one basic Island and one basic Swamp, sure Blood Moon gives you problems, but since you have mana to find FotD and plenty of tutors, you'll find it and all Mountains gives you the mana to play it. Otherwise you do still have 3 white mana sources to cast Rector.

Form of the Dragon is terrible.  

The entire point of using cards like Chalice, Null Rod, and Sphere is to stop your opponent from doing anything at all, not to stop the deck once it has started going off.

This is called mana denial.  Mana denial in general is why Rector-based decks are not good.

I seldom find it hard to support FoW. I have 14 blue cards including FoW. We have actually tried to go down to 12 and then it still works in most cases, but then it is too unstable. 13 is also playable. One of the blue cards is actually Hurkyl's Recall which can deal with various artifacts. And what combo deck doesn't have problem with first turn hate? But this deck has both FoW and various path's to victory. That goes for no other combo deck.

Then you're lying to yourself.  The deck needs at bare minimum 15, and 16 is a realistic number.  

Remember, you can't operate like Dragon with 13 blue cards.  They can pitch whatever to Force and rely on Bazaar, but you need things like Brainstorm and Time Walk to set-up your wins.  

Graveyard hate is not that awsome either. Then just cast Necro or Bargain and win.

Aggro decks use graveyard hate as a way to stall you out long enough so that when you finally do get to the point where you play Necro/Bargain, you'll have too little life to effectively use them.

Control uses graveyard hate as a means to stop your early brokenness, and then mana denial kicks in to keep you out of the game long enough for your opponent to establish their game, and put you into a position where you are unable to come back.  In other words, you won't be able to accomplish getting Necro/Bargain out.

I don't know how you play this deck, but Stifle has never been a problem. Thay just don't get to keep it until it's needed and tog is a 90-10 matchup since no-one runs more than one Coffin Purge these days and it's far too slow to wish for it.

Then let me tell you how I play this deck, and how my opponent's play against it.  Stifle is used for mana denial.  It hits your fetchlands, losing you an incredible amount of tempo.

As far as Tog is concerned, trust me when I say I have played Rector vs. Tog a lot.  It is not 90-10, or anywhere close to that.  If it is for you, then the Tog players need to learn and play better.

[Nehptis]

For some reference.....playing Rector Tendrils, I just lost 2-0 to Hulk/Tog playing MD Stifles in the finals of a T1 tourney, yesterday.  He Stifled my Rector one game and my Memory Jar the other.

I'd say that the matchup is more 50 / 50 in my experience.  I'm definitley adding some more graveyard hate to my SB due to the increasing number of Tog and Dragon decks in my area.

[Irish31]

I have been playing Tendrils for months now (too lazy and don't play enough T1 currently to change it).

I can safely say after playing player about 250 games with the deck, Cotv for 1 is 99% an auto scoop aganist any half decent deck/player.

First turn Workshop Sphere or Trinisphere is also game, by the time you can form any sort of setup to go off the lock will be in full force.

It's not viable at all anymore (form of the dragon is good though, in my experience).

Jay

[Didor]

I have just looked at the latest tournament coverages on morphling.de, and it seems that rector/trix is still able to perform well... two decks did top8 in Turin.  And the field seems to be full of workshop decks.

[mask]

I have just looked at the latest tournament coverages on morphling.de, and it seems that rector/trix is still able to perform well... two decks did top8 in Turin.  And the field seems to be full of workshop decks.

rector trix is a fragile combo deck, real control will just destory the deck even with those discards. but against aggro, or in workshop case, aggro control, it has no direct way to stop the combo from going off other than denial of mana bases. Sure if there were a lot workshop decks rector trix would be a good metagame push, but don;t forget rector trix one other weakness, if you oppents gains life up to 21 life, then trix has to either deal physical combat with rector, or setup another combo. workshop decks in my area have usually side in zuran orb against trix and tenticles.

[Gilberry]

I was a huge Rector Trix and I guess I still am in many ways, but sentiments aside: Rector Trix has big problems competing in the current environment.

Dragon hate can easily target rector decks, and Dragon decks have faster combos and draw engines (the draw engine speed is disputable). Other decks that play Spheres (Trinisphere or Sphere of Resistance) also pose a problem for Rector. So if you like combo why not play Dragon... You face the same obstacles and its easier to win with it.

I have just looked at the latest tournament coverages on morphling.de, and it seems that rector/trix is still able to perform well... two decks did top8 in Turin. And the field seems to be full of workshop decks.

1. Rector Tendrils
2. Gobvantage
3. Gobvantage
4. Slavery (non-Workshop)
5. Hulk Smash
6. MUD (monoBrown)
7. SuperGro
8. Rector Trix

Rector is far from obsolete as many tournament results show. It’s just not the perfect meta-game choice, currently.