[Deck Discussion] JP Meyers newest Psychatog Variant

[Andreas]

I would have asked my questions in the Tournament forum, alas I am lacking the permission to do so, which is why I am starting this thread.

My questions are about the Psychatog deck JP Meyer piloted to a win at the Columbus tournament this saturday. The T8 decks can be found here.

What struck me as odd was that red was cut from the deck, although with the advent of Trinisphere a lot of artifact based prison decks were to be expected, and against them the artifact removal red offers (Gorilla Shaman, Artifact Mutation, Rack and Ruin) would seem very useful to me.

Would anyone of the decks creators (preferably JP Meyer himself   ) mind to comment on the changes made to the deck?

[jpmeyer]

Better version:

4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Island
1 Swamp
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Strip Mine

5 Moxes
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt

3 Psychatog

4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge
3 Cunning Wish
2 Intuition
2 Deep Analysis
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall

3 Duress
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mind Twist
1 Yawgmoth's Will

1 Pernicious Deed

SB:
3 Back to Basics
1 Duress
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Deep Analysis
1 Berserk
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Oxidize
1 Last Word
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Coffin Purge
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Smother
1 Naturalize

I'm writing up a tourney report which hopefully will get posted Friday, but to answer your question, it's because if you drop a Psychatog against Workshop decks, you make almost the entire deck irrelevent.

[BreathWeapon]

Right ... I think my Tog deck is -2 Mana Sources for +1 Duress +1 P.Deed, scary. I'm glad to see you MD the Deep Anals to clear up SB space, but loathe to see the Duress and Deed sitting on the side lines.

A few quick questions, is there any reason your not MDing the other P.Deed in the SB? Almost all of the games i've played with HULK involve siding in the 2nd Deed games 2 and 3. I've sided that damn card in soo many times vs soo many decks it only seems right to include it in the MD.

Have you found the general inflexibility of Merchant Scroll to be the key reason in cutting it from your deck, or did you just need space?

Are 24 sources better than 22 for the deck as a whole, or did you only include the extra basic lands to support B2B? Was the lone Strip Mine worth it?

[jpmeyer]

Right ... I think my Tog deck is -2 Mana Sources for +1 Duress +1 P.Deed, scary. I'm glad to see you MD the Deep Anals to clear up SB space, but loathe to see the Duress and Deed sitting on the side lines.

A few quick questions, is there any reason your not MDing the other P.Deed in the SB? Almost all of the games i've played with HULK involve siding in the 2nd Deed games 2 and 3. I've sided that damn card in soo many times vs soo many decks it only seems right to include it in the MD.

I shuffled Deed back with Brainstorm/Delta A LOT.  The only reason that it's there is because I really like having an oh shit button around.  Deed is also the sort of card where there are a lot of matchups where I side it in, but it's very often for a different card in lots of different matchups.  Against aggro it's for Duress, but against Prison it's usually for like Mind Twist or Deep Analysis, and so on.

Have you found the general inflexibility of Merchant Scroll to be the key reason in cutting it from your deck, or did you just need space?

More for space.  The reason I have Mystical over it is because there are a lot of situations where you need to tutor for Time Walk and Will.

Are 24 sources better than 22 for the deck as a whole, or did you only include the extra basic lands to support B2B? Was the lone Strip Mine worth it?

There is no fucking way that this deck can get away with 22 mana.  I played against 22 mana Tog at Columbus and a single Wasteland bought me like 4 turns of him not having UU mana, so suffice to say it didn't take much to win that one.  The Strip is there for pretty much the same reason as the Deed, in that there are randomly a few times that I will need the ability to kill like a Bazaar or whatnot.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Jp: I love the revised deck...just have some minor questions.

1) Have you tested Gush at all? I've been playing Tog lately, and Gush is absolutely house. I know the point has been beaten to death, but I was just wondering what you thought of it. Deep Analysis is a house vs. Control, but against everything else, it either blows, or is just a leisure draw spell. It's nice to intuition for 2 deeps and a duress, but not necessary. I just think that Gush is such a house vs. all the randomness out there. It also prevents wasteland damage, although that may not be a huge issue anymore with 4 basics in your "better" build.

2) Wastelands...I really like wastelands in Tog. It stalls vs. Workshop decks, and its soooo good vs. dragon. With Dragon now packing 4 swarms, wish ---> purge may be a bit weak. In anycase, I'm loving the wastes.

3) With the red splash gone, aren't you hurting in the mask matchup? It was already a rough match before, but with red gone (notably for Rack and Ruin and Mutation), the only answers are deed, smother, naturalize, and oxidize. I've played out this matchup for awhile now, and it seems like an impossible matchup to win. Seriously. maybe I'm a bad player, but how do you play against mask? They have sooooo much disruption and early game, tog can't stand up to a 12/12...and if it can, well, you lose your hand and GY. Brainstorms help immensely, but with the threat of discard + Wastes + huge fat, I'm a bit intimidated by the matchup.

[LOLinger]

*nods*
JP your build is amazing.

Though I really wonder why you guys dont like Sol Ring. Sure Crypt is superior. And yes - off color moxen are perfect aswell.
But I think Steven M. is right with claiming that this is a combo deck.
Basically you want to go Intuition/Knowlgedge asap, since its your fastest way to the lethal tog.
And honestly land drops are rarely an issue since you still put back lands often via brainstorm. (At least thats what happens to me - flame me for that if you want....  )

On the other hand having less than 24 mana sources would be too much of a gamble imo.
Thatwhy i run a mana base like this:
-swamp +sol ring
-island +tropical island (mostly because of SB xantid swarms)

[The only card difference from there on is:
-deep anal (2 in SB) +merchant scroll
But thats another topic.....]

jpmeyer: Not care THAT much since as long as you get your Time Walk effect, the Mox has done its job. Furthermore, it adds little bits more damage to your Tog.

So JP why not all of them? (crypt + 7 solomoxen)

[Harry Lime]

How has Last Word been working out? It seems expensive for a wish target, unless you have extra mana from a Drain. Do you side it in against control, or always keep it in the 'board?

If anyone else has given it a play, I would like to hear your thoughts/experience as well. It's a pretty funky little card.

[LOLinger]

Eastman: Not running Sol Ring is a mistake, as is cutting the green element from the deck, gutting the combo abilities of a build obviously streamlined to be as fast as possible.

eastman posted this on another tog thread already.
so at least i am not alone on that topic....  :lol:

[Smmenen]

Sol Ring is awful.  Mana Crypt is about a billion times better and you don't want to run both.

Steve

[jpmeyer]

The problem with Sol Ring is that it costs mana to cast.  Land doesn't.  Land, Sol Ring, go is not nearly as good as Land, Mox, because with Land, Mox you can still Duress or Mystical or whatever and you don't have excess mana on turn 2 if you want to cast Cunning Wish or Intuition or whatever.

The problem with Gush, which I told to Smmenen there, is that you can't rely on drawing it when you only have 1, and you really don't want to tutor for it or Wish for it.  If I need damage, I'll get Cunning Wish, and if I want cards I'll get Ancestral or AK.  When you could run 3-4, it was a lot better since you could count on getting it in your draw so if you had a tutor you could use it to fetch Tog/Wish/Ancestral/whatever so that you could have the easy turn 4 kill.

People spend way too much time trying to kill lots of crap with Tog when they don't have to.  Against decks like Stax and Mask, you're a lot better off just winning than dicking around trying to kill all their crap.  For instance, if Mask is playing Spoils than Tog/Berserk is lethal from literally any position.  You can take the 12 and then untap, discard 2 cards, remove 4 or something and Berserk for 12 or whatever you need to kill them since they used Spoils.

Deep Analysis is in the deck because honestly the only deck that I think that Tog really has to worry about is the mirror.  Dragon IS a week matchup but Dragon just gets hit by so many random hate cards that I definitely would not play it ata tourney.  Because of this, I'm willing to play DA and not really care about aggro.  I mean, I don't even side them out usually against them, and at worst you can always just "Madness" DA to get around the 4cc.

Seeing how you will cast at most one green spell with this deck, I never had problems with green mana.

I'm writing up a tourney report for my weekly article for SCG that'll cover Last Word in depth.  It's actually based more on Tog's role against other control decks.

[Smmenen]

I understand what JP is saying, but he's wrong about Gush for the reason that Pernicious Deed is awesome in Tog.  I didn't articulate this at the time, but its true:

Singleton's are amazing becuase you have an Incredibly high chance of seeing them in any given game becuase of the tremendous synergy of Delta/Brainstorm.

Steve

[jazzykat]

Maybe I just play like a panzy (IE brainstorming for land, and tutoring for it at times) but, vs. mono green lando, I was doing OK with 22 land.

I haven't gotten to gold fish this deck much less play test, so I won't make any judgements. All that I can say is that in a perfect world (IE gold fish land) I drew just enough land with Steve's build, and went off real fast. This build seems a little more pragmatic(people do break your land!), although I think it is wrong to play off the workshop threat too lightly. (Maybe I am just scared of them.)

Regarding the SB (or why I miss red):
Rack and Ruin is like cheating against a lot of decks, usually breaking the offending artifact and one of their moxes. I don't know if its needed or not, but I loved having it.

The B2B is a sneaky and rather inspired move, I have seen it MD but this is funny for game 2.  

REB, although cool vs. blue decks is not wholly nescessary anymore, as I had a feeling it was to destroy offending B2B's when playing a four color build.

Artifact Mutation: (Paranoia: TNT, MUD) um....nothing says I win like breaking a stack or a su-chi/karn/platinum angel during their end step or attack step for chumpers.

For consideration: Seed time.....hmmmm....blue deck.....timewalk...wishable? *shrug* (I will leave this to the great minds)

EDIT: (steve's fan club chiming in again) If you are ever to play singleton's this is the deck for it. The draw is sooo good, between brainstorm, your draw step, and actual card drawers, you will see what you want or win before then. It is a matter of thinking ahead a little and making the right choices.

[Mixing Mike]

Deep Analysis is in the deck because honestly the only deck that I think that Tog really has to worry about is the mirror.

What about Slaver?  Psychatog as a general archtype (not getting into anyone's personal builds) seems to bend over to it more often than take a win.

[zero]

I played almost the exact same list JP posted at the beginning of the thread at NG 2 weeks ago, with only a MD gush, merchant scroll, +1 Trop, -1 mox pearl,-1 mana crypt as the difference (vampiric in the s/b).  I also used 3 xantids in the sideboard b/c I wanted to see what it did in a control matchup. Do you think the B2B is better in a 3 color tog build over xantid? I ended up losing to a keeper deck, by outdrawing him and only getting crap, but the xantids made him nervous.  On the other hand, they make his creature kill not sit uselessly in his hand. waiting to be brainstormed away.
IIRC this was my s/b that day:
1x Berserk
1x Smother
2x Coffin purge (Hell,I'm the only one around there with bazaars, why don't I only play one?)
1x Pernicious deed
1x Naturalize
1x Crumble, now an Oxidize
1x Vampiric tutor
1x Blue Elemental blast
1x Psychatog
3x Xantid swarm
1x Deep Anal
1x Plaguebearer (In case westredale shows up with his gay assed fish deck); In fact, the reason I had a basic swamp maindeck was to have a non-wasteable source of black to activate plaguebearer.
The fact that I will play a lot of control matchups makes me hesitate to use a mana crypt, those games can go long enough to prefer sol ring. Or maybe i'm just a pussy.
P.S. One point I'd like to make is that current tog decks are looking a lot like the post-gush restriction lists posted a year ago, b4 the adding of red.

[JohnnyToxic]

As usual, great deck and grats on the nice finish. That being said, I like red a lot in Hulk nowadays. It could be my meta, but Rack and Ruin and Artifact Mutation are such great cards I feel they are almost neccessary to run, at least as "oh, crap" wish targets. On the inclusion of Last Word, I love it. It's great for countering game breaking spells with no ifs ands or buts. Last comment, are you confident with only one Deed at your disposal in the maindeck? I normally run two, sometimes three if the meta calls for it. Do you ever find yourself wishing for another mass removal card? In agreement with most other posters here, I would have to say that, at least in Hulk, Sol Ring does not belong.

John

[jpmeyer]

Why do people keep thinking that they need to kill so much crap?  Just freakin' win instead.

[Smmenen]

Exactly.  That's why Tog players lose to Stompy - becuase they think they have to control the board rather than combo over.


Steve

[Wollblad]

Regarding Gush
My experience from Gush is midly speaking ambivalent. You do definatly not want to play it the first few turns unless you are mana screwed or are about to be thanks to LD. It is another of those cards you do not want in your opening hand. On the other hand, it can all by itself bring the kill a few turns earlier and is thus part of the combo. I have also found it vital against decks playing Withered Wretched. In those matchups, you tend to have no graveyard, but a gush is so much damage in itself that you can win without taking care of the Wretch. Last, it works very fine with Back to Basic. Thus, I advocate Gush in maindeck, then probably over one of the Deep Analysis.

On the sideboard
I do not understand the use of Last Word in sidebaord. Against what is it brought iin and when can Tog leave UU2 open to use it, or are you supposed to leave UUU4 open to wish for it? The same goes for Fact or Fiction. Those times I have used it in my sideboard, I have never wished for it once (and I have played the deck alot). I think the sideboard lacks graveyard hate, mainly against Rector decks. They have as much disruption as Tog, but a far faster combo.

[Viceroy]

Exactly.  That's why Tog players lose to Stompy - becuase they think they have to control the board rather than combo over.


Steve

That`s true, against aggro the essence of Tog is to focus on the combo, instead of playing the deck as control. This is the primary reason of lossing.

About the Drawing engine, I am actually running:

1 Gush ( I would never cut this one: target Tog gets +6+6, 0cc, what else?
In the opening hands, it`s a pitch for FoW, or you can hide it with brainstorm+fetch)

1 Merchant Scroll (Maybe cut for Deep Anal, now in the SB), but scroll is really useful, can fetch first turn Recall and sometimes the 4th AK)

1 Fact or Fiction: why nobody like this one?

[jpmeyer]

While it's supposed to be true that you can see every card in Tog by around turn 5, Tog can kill around turn 5 without Gush anyway.  The reason that Gush was great before was because you could rely on drawing one by turn 3ish so that you could kill turn 3-4.  You can kill turn 5 easily without Gush, so at that point you aren't going to need to find it.

I don't know why people need to keep adding Merchant Scroll to the deck.  Your draw finds you draw.  You shouldn't need to tutor for draw (I'm obviously excluding Intuition here, since that functions more like a draw card anyway.)

Fact or Fiction is like Deed: it gets sided in a lot, but it comes in for completely different cards in each matchup that it comes in.

[Smmenen]

If you sb in Fact or Fiction, there is no excuse to not use Gush first.  Both are restricted, and Gush is much stronger.

Steve

[jpmeyer]

Gush is balls compared to FoF if you are using it as a draw spell and not a damage spell.

[Smmenen]

One is free and the other is borderline uncastable.

Steve

[jpmeyer]

This is why I win the Tog mirror

[Smmenen]

Not against me you don't.  Granted, FoF is good against the mirror, becuase the game goes long enough that a 4 cc spell can go online, but do not discount Gush as a draw spell.  Having LoA in play and then drawing Gush is the win in the mirror match.

Steve

[wonkey_donkey]

This is why I win the Tog mirror

Not against me you don't. Granted, FoF is good against the mirror, becuase the game goes long enough that a 4 cc spell can go online, but do not discount Gush as a draw spell. Having LoA in play and then drawing Gush is the win in the mirror match.

Not that either of you are bitter or anything like that   . Sorry, I had to say it.

For once I disagree with steve. It doesn't happen very often, but I prefer JP's outlook on gush vs FoF: FoF is a handy mana sink for mana drain if intuition isn't available, it digs 5 cards down rather than 2, and it has slightly better synergy with brainstorm, in that you can go past at least one of the cards you put back. Also, the presence of a md deed means that you have a reset button, which means that you are less reliant on killing asap with gush - you can use the very slightly slower fof instead, which I don't think is a "borderline uncastable" in a deck that runs the full set of jewelry and mana crypt/drain. I'm fully prepared to admit that you've both done far more testing than I have, but I'm leaning with JP on this.

Tom

[Ultima]

I have to concur with Steve.  While FOF is an amazing draw spell, Gush is superior because it protects the manabase which for any Tog player is always a priority and its cost is give your tog plus 6 damage. FOF is better in the mirror true, but that's only because the mirror only lasts so long, while gush is good against everything including the mirror.  I can understand the logic in playing FOF for the mirror if that's the only thing your worried about but I'd rather keep a stronger general game.

More or less if you are gonna argue that FOF is better for the mirror then one could also argue that sol ring is better than the crypt for the same reasons.

PS, Steve the item I was referring to in the email was the foil swarm, sorry i should have clarified that.

[LOLinger]

JohnnyToxic: In agreement with most other posters here, I would have to say that, at least in Hulk, Sol Ring does not belong.

As I said before, I cant agree to that. For me sol ring is simply amazing.
Thats why i was desperate to hear why JP left it out. (Not to mention that those "most other peoples"(including you) didnt give any reasons either...)

smmenen: Sol Ring is awful. Mana Crypt is about a billion times better and you don't want to run both.

Saying so is ok. Giving reasons is better.

jpmeyer: Deep Analysis is in the deck because honestly the only deck that I think that Tog really has to worry about is the mirror.

No question vs. aggro the sol ring is just brutal since the deck you can easily abuse its mana (even in addition to crypt + all moxes + lotus).
So I'll try to focus on the control mirror.

jpmeyer: The problem with Sol Ring is that it costs mana to cast. Land doesn't.

Missing land drops aint much of an issue for me. But of course i totally understand your reasoning with oposing control decks in mind (e.g. the mirror). There you maybe dont want to intuition/AK aggressively and thatwhy CAN come in the situatuion of missing a land drop (in the cruicial first turns). But sol ring would at least be as good as a swamp here.

jpmeyer: Land, Sol Ring, go is not nearly as good as Land, Mox, because with Land, Mox you can still Duress or Mystical or whatever.....

True. But your chance to have any of those is only 40%. And to have Sol Ring its EVEN ONLY 12%. I dont think they concur too much on the opening hand.
Your chances to have a Mox are 47%. And this would allow for first turn Intuition (e.g. on Deep Anal) - thats at least a force of will from your opponent (if hes lucky to have one)!
On the other hand going intuition + drain backup on turn 3 is in many cases also force of will from your opponent (with him taping out in his turn).

jpmeyer: ...you don't have excess mana on turn 2 if you want to cast Cunning Wish or Intuition or whatever.

Hmm i always want to have excess mana with this deck :lol:
But seriously spending 4 mana is not that hard and you even have 1 more Deep Anal first game (- I could do merchant -> AK).

Anyway its good that not everybody plays the same deck *g*.
For me Sol Ring is amazing. And i am still very happy that my own 2 weeks old build is only 3 MD cards different from JPs newest "better version". (Since i could swear JP is playtesting like mad......)

[jpmeyer]

Excess mana is bad.  It is the sign of a poorly tuned deck

[dad]

I know this may turn out to be an absurd question, but I noticed a debate in GAT, which may not be at all necesary here, since this is Hulk.  Some have argued that Counterspell or even Daze may be preferred in the Mana Drain slot.  What are your opinions on this?

Also, if Counterspell is a consideration, then would Voidmage Prodigy be worth exploring?