TheManaDrain.com
October 20, 2025, 02:47:33 pm *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News:
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: [1] 2
  Print  
Author Topic: [Discussion]Bluffs and Tells in MtG  (Read 7316 times)
Methuselahn
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 1051


View Profile
« on: February 12, 2004, 12:58:53 am »

I believe that there is a part of Magic the Gathering strategy today that is not being fully examined.  I'm talking about bluffs, tells, and hidden information. (or lack thereof in some peoples' case)  I wish to discuss some of the secrets that many pros know of, but don't tell you.  Many of these tips go beyond MtG and even beyond card games.   Learning how to put yourself across and how to read through deception is an invaluable skill.  We should all be familiar with them.

Size up your opponent.

Be ageist.  Older players generally have better control over their emotions and know about putting themselves across to you a certain way.  Older players generally don't feel a need to stroke their own egos as much as young males do.  It is vitally important to know whether an opponent is trying to deceive you.  A more experienced player is generally more attuned to patterns of deception and tells.

The accountant player is a neat freak.  Often you will see an opponent who keeps their possessions neat and orderly, this person attempts to be cold and calculating, rarely does this person bluff.  Seeker of the safe and sure play, they are all about the math.  They will try to play the board only, bluffing very, very little, if at all.  This accountant is a great bluff victim.

The warrior mentality is almost a complete opposite of the 'accountant.'  Often impatient, generally harder to read, usually attuned to mind games, reading bluffs, etc., this player may make more mistakes because of faster play but still not safe to count on it.  Bluffing against these risk takers is a poor plan.  Generally, these are the older players with more experience.  These players know the value of hidden information.

Ironically, a total noob is probably the hardest to get tells from, not that you should need to.  

Reading your opponent is key.  Reading your opponent requires you to recognize their bluffs and tells.  A tell is usually a physical reaction to some event that gives away your intent, strength of hand, position, etc.  Determining if you should read your opponent is the first step.  Real pros know the standard bluffs and tells.  That is why pros read the board and not each other.  This is why 'jedi mind tricks' don't work against the good players.  Fortunately for this article, there are very few people who cannot be read.  I know that I have tells.  Most likely, you do too.

The eyes never lie.  The more you watch your opponent, the more information you will extract.  Is he counting his artifacts to see if he can cast affinity spells?  Doing Smokestack math?   Is he looking at his life total or your life total in order to plan an attack?  Is he looking at your lands to see if you can counter something?  These are all questions that can be answered by watching the eyes.  Mike Caro, a famous poker instructor and player notes that eyes that sneak a peak at the chips is an indication of a coming call or bet due to an improved hand.

Nervousness, shaking, shuffling cards in hand is often a good tell.  A lot of people think that this is a sign of a bluff.  In reality, this is a sign of a strong hand.  In traditional poker and games like Hold'em, it is a natural calling reaction.   Prepare to take the control stance in Magic.  Short their mana, play your disruption first, limit their options, do whatever you can to limit their resources now.  

Some players show obvious changes in their posture based on their attitude/hand strength. For instance, you may notice their shoulders drop/slump when they are not confident (weak hand). Conversely, you may notice the player is very attentive and sitting in an erect position when he has a strong hand.  Reading posture may give you the key information to what is a better first play, Duress, Brainstorm, Ancestral, Stifle, Strip, or what have you.  This is always tempered by the match-up analysis, but helpful still.

Often, when an opponent looks away, sighs, shrugs, or has a general lack of interest they have a strong hand.  This information is usually most useful when your opponent is playing some sort of control.  Of course, it can apply to any deck.  The reason people do this is to appear non-threatening.  They might hope you will walk into their Mana Drain or other reactionary bomb.  Conversely, they will try to appear intimidating so that it is obvious that you are walking into their trap, when really, they have no such trap.  The famous golden rule, "Strong is Weak, Weak is Strong" is a powerful ally.

Here's some specific examples of bluffs and tells:

Taking back a land tap is a tell that the player is holding at least one non counterspell.  Knowing this, you can easily turn it into a bluff by reaching for a certain land as if you are about to cast that land in your hand.

Again, hidden information is critical.  For example, laying out all of your available mana then casting spells.  Make the control player think that all you have first turn is Underground Sea, Duress.  Underground Sea, Mox, Lotus, Duress reveals so much more to them.  The less data they have to work with, the better off your game plan is.

Hold some land.  Having any amount of hidden information is generally better than having none.  This has got to be the most elementary.

Here is one I use often to bluff and de-spirit my opponent.  With the trump card already in hand, I will speak aloud something like "Come On Swords To Plowshares!"  Of course, I then proceed to magically top-deck, cast, and send the creature farming.  Sure, it may not actually help the current position by using this strategy, but it sets up a possible bluff.  By doing the same thing when you DON'T have the trump card, you can bluff the opponent into playing around said card.  

I'm going to pick on our friend waSP for a minute.  Steve likes to guess what spell you are going to play right before you play it.  This tactic does a couple of things.  It can make the opponent think that you are able to anticipate their move if your 'call' is correct.  This can be quite disheartening.  If your opponent feels as if you can read them like a book, then they may try to compensate, perhaps leading to a misplay.  'Calling' the spell may also be a suggestion as to what to play.  This is done because you have an answer for said spell.  

Examining obvious information can be a tell for a weak hand.  If someone asks to see your graveyard when it only has a Fetchland and a REB, they may have a poor hand.  This might be a tell that your opponent is bluffing a useful hand.  Perhaps they want you to think that they are holding a utility spell that could foil your plans.  Maybe they will ask you how many lands you have untapped, your life total, or something else.  Players may use this trick to 'calculate a powerful play' which they don't have.  On the flip side, if they appear to do nothing, then they may have a hand packed full of utility.

These are just some examples of what do and use.  Every person and every situation is different.  The key is to recognize patterns in familiar opponents,  then this article will start to pay off.  Even though I have broken it, the most important rule may be to never tell your friends what their tells are!

Part of the reason I love playing proactive decks most is because I get to test control players' bluffing skills.  This is quite difficult to do online unfortunately, which is why online play is tainted to begin with.  I personally believe that Richard Garfield wanted these tactics to be a fundamental part of the game.  Hopefully I have made some people more aware of their own game and brought to light issues beyond the hardcore math, calculation, deck creation, decision making.  And by all means, if you have some examples of other bluffs or tells,.... DO TELL!!
Logged
jsg7440
Basic User
**
Posts: 16


jsg7440@hotmail.com
View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2004, 01:25:58 am »

I don't feel that tells have as much to do in magic as simple logical deduction of the situation you are playing.

Although, I must also say...

Show me a serious Type 1 player who can bluff that he doesn't have a Yawg's Will after topdecking it late in the game, and I will show you a player who belongs in a different game.  (psst  I think he's talking about poker Rolling Eyes )
Logged
Smash
Basic User
**
Posts: 201


10830931 uiucMonkey uiucMonkey
View Profile
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2004, 01:35:04 am »

Quote from: jsg7440
I don't feel that tells have as much to do in magic as simple logical deduction of the situation you are playing.

Although, I must also say...

Show me a serious Type 1 player who can bluff that he doesn't have a Yawg's Will after topdecking it late in the game, and I will show you a player who belongs in a different game.  (psst  I think he's talking about poker Rolling Eyes )


Most top pro magic players are also pro poker players Smile

Because of the less competitive nature of type 1 (Sorry Smmenen, I think Kai is still better), type 1 does have a lot less "good" poker players than standard or limited (i.e. the money formats). However, in type one there are SOOO many more cards around. In game 2, if your opponent has Volcanic Island / Underground Sea open, which spells could they have in hand to use at instant speed? Between free spells and cheap spells... there is a lot of really strange stuff they can pull out. Now if you look at the most frequently played decks, only a small % of cards are ever played... but some weird ones definately can pop up time to time Smile
Logged

Estne volumen in toga, an solum tibi libet me videre?
mouth
Basic User
**
Posts: 101

10497100
View Profile
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2004, 01:48:26 am »

My favourite "bluff" is to play a role. For instance, I occasionally play the n00b, and give false tells to my opponent. However, this is usually only applicable at PTQ's and the like where the opposing players often are aware of the common tells and don't know of your umm, role playing.

I also watch to see if my opponent is watching my eyes, but it's tricky to do that without letting them know that you're watching them too. For example, I'll look at my hand, look at the board, focussing on the important aspects, and quickly look up to their eyes and ask them a question. If their eyes already meet yours, then you know they're trying to read you.

That may seem needless, but it helps to determine the player's skill level, which in turn allows you to decide whether or not it's ok to play a role. It also let's you play other mind tricks, like when you draw a card, any card, flick your focus to their board and stare at it  as if you're examining it.  If they look through their hand immediately after you doing that, you've convinced them that you just drew a Real Good Card.

Alot of this stuff depends on the fact that you're:
a) A serious player
b) Are morally okay with "lying" to people
c) Are actually capable of doing some acting

So many times a person tries to give a false tell, and it's glaringly obvious that they're lying. Usually their reaction isn't genuine, like if they smile or smirk when they haven't throughout the match. There is a good deal of acting involved, and it's not something you can do on the fly, yet people still try. It requires practice. Hell, I started doing it in casual games even.

Some other things that aren't quite as sportsman-like:

- Against someone who has a loosely defined grasp of the rules, be a rules lawyer. Never cheat, just try and overload their senses.

- Against the rules lawyer pretend that you are the one with the loosely defined grasp of the rules... ask them to explain and clarify things, just not things that are obvious, cause that's stalling. I don't, in any way sanction stalling, this tactic is only used to imbue a false sense of security for the more experienced player. Also, if you beat them game 1, they'll often be flustered game 2.

If you're a serious player then it would do you good to read books on other competitive card games, the most improtant being Poker. This shouldn't need to be said. I've read a few, but I can't remember their titles for reference, sorry.

The single biggest piece of advice that I can give is to practice playing different roles. Having the ability to "turn on" little personality quirks and mannerisms can help to alleviate your own tells. It all comes down to intuition, consistency and just being natural.
Logged
The M.E.T.H.O.D
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 474



View Profile
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2004, 12:06:29 pm »

This sounda kind of stupid, but it always worked for me.

You can always feign your hand with your opponent.

"EOT, umm, nah ill start my turn"

"Ill respond, nah ok go ahead"

Like what was said before, always tapping correctly your mana is important.  When I played Wmud or a workshop deck, When colored mana was not an issue and i was casting something, I always left a red source open, to feign that I was going to follow the spell with a goblin welder.
Logged

Team Meandeck: classy old folks that meet up at the VFW on leap year
jpmeyer
fancy having a go at it?
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 2390


badplayermeyer
View Profile WWW
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2004, 12:44:49 pm »

Ask crap like "cards in hand?" or "can I see your graveyard?" or look at your graveyard and stuff are much, much less obvious looking ways to bluff.

Quote
Show me a serious Type 1 player who can bluff that he doesn't have a Yawg's Will after topdecking it late in the game, and I will show you a player who belongs in a different game. (psst I think he's talking about poker  )


Uh, someone who has been keeping track of their graveyard OR someone who knows that they need specific cards to fire off Will succesfully that they know that it hasn't been cast?  This one is seriously not difficult at all...
Logged

Team Meandeck: "As much as I am a clueless, credit-stealing, cheating homo I do think we would do well to consider the current stage of the Vintage community." -Smmenen
SpencerForHire
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 1473



View Profile
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2004, 01:34:05 pm »

Lets work on something not to do, this guy I know would always stack his counterspells in a little stack at the base of his land.  He would place cards there and pretend they were counters but instead be something else.  At first this seemed a good way to fake control.  But then he would need a card and forget it was in the other stack and I would own him.. In general it was to his own demise.
Logged

Team Technology - Strictly better than our previous name.
JACO
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 1215


Don't be a meatball.


View Profile WWW
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2004, 02:24:56 pm »

That is undoubtedly one of the best Magic related articles I have ever read, and not just related to Type 1. I'm well aware of almost all of it (I also play Hold 'Em), but it was very well thought out and executed. Great job Methuselahn!
Logged

Want to write about Vintage, Legacy, Modern, Type 4, or Commander/EDH? Eternal Central is looking for writers! Contact me. Follow me on Twitter @JMJACO. Follow Eternal Central on Twitter @EternalCentral.
Jacob Orlove
Official Time Traveller of TMD
Administrator
Basic User
*****
Posts: 8074


When am I?


View Profile Email
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2004, 02:33:28 pm »

Quote from: Smash
Because of the less competitive nature of type 1 (Sorry Smmenen, I think Kai is still better), type 1 does have a lot less "good" poker players than standard or limited (i.e. the money formats).

The irony here is that Smmenen is honestly the worst player I have EVER SEEN when it comes to hiding the quality of his hand. When he has good cards, you'd have to be blind AND deaf to not know it. Of course, he plays combo, so the intimidation factor may actually work in his favor. And from a technical level, his play is excellent. And he's a cool guy. But when it comes to stuff like this, well, the irony is just mind-boggling.

edit: just to be clear, this is in no way meant as an insult. The games I played against Steve were some of the most enjoyable and challenging games I've ever played--he even made it fun to lose before I even got a turn. Type one is the perfect format to dispense with this stuff.
Logged

Team Meandeck: O Lord,
Guard my tongue from evil and my lips from speaking guile.
To those who slander me, let me give no heed.
May my soul be humble and forgiving to all.
Smmenen
Guest
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2004, 02:40:27 pm »

In my experience, bluffing and stuff like that makes a HUGE difference in the lower formats - limited, T2 - if only becuase games can turn on such a very small decision (esp. a tight draft).  

In Type One, games turn on making the correct play - not on CREATING the correct play - and this play is determined mostly by experience and how actual games play out.  

Steve
Logged
Smash
Basic User
**
Posts: 201


10830931 uiucMonkey uiucMonkey
View Profile
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2004, 02:44:52 pm »

Quote from: Jacob Orlove
Quote from: Smash
Because of the less competitive nature of type 1 (Sorry Smmenen, I think Kai is still better), type 1 does have a lot less "good" poker players than standard or limited (i.e. the money formats).

The irony here is that Smmenen is honestly the worst player I have EVER SEEN when it comes to hiding the quality of his hand. When he has good cards, you'd have to be blind AND deaf to not know it. Of course, he plays combo, so the intimidation factor may actually work in his favor. And from a technical level, his play is excellent. And he's a cool guy. But when it comes to stuff like this, well, the irony is just mind-boggling.


*pictures Smmenen giggling like a little kid when he flips over a wish off a brainstorm*

It's swearing, not giggling. But you get the idea. =)
-Jacob



You make a good point Smmenen, in that unlike draft, type 2 tends not to play out as tight. You go turn 1 lots of mana producers -> wheel. If they have a FoW they use it. If not, they don't. not really much to bluff there.

However, I think type 1 control mirror is the king of all control games. I really think a little poker tricks can go a long way here Smile
Logged

Estne volumen in toga, an solum tibi libet me videre?
Smmenen
Guest
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2004, 03:00:51 pm »

And confidence and a positive attitude.

Steve
Logged
DEA
Basic User
**
Posts: 384



View Profile
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2004, 03:44:03 pm »

i've seen someone win by hovering his hands over 2 lands when all they had were 2 lands
the opponent was so sure that he had something up his sleeve it gave him one turn to topdeck a fireball (draft game, btw)
Logged

i need red mana
colder
Basic User
**
Posts: 40


colder@sekurity.com
View Profile
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2004, 04:01:56 pm »

I think bluffing would work the best when you actually have more than one play option.  For example, there's no point in Smennen trying to do any bluffing in a combo deck since he's either going to go off or he's not.  The number of win conditions in Long & NotLong are few - you're just looking to combo until you win.  It's not like you're going to stall yourself from going off if you can do it, and you're not going to combo off and then stop and do nothing, or else you lose your tempo.

In control-based decks, it's not terribly likely that you're going to do a lot of bluffing, although you can do a fair amount - the 2 island bluff, the smirking look or look of disappointment after a topdeck, etc.  You can also smirk about a counter in your hand, dare a person to play something, and then do nothing when the cast it, as if they've successfully called your bluff, while surprising their next spell with an actual counter.  That doesn't always work out mathematically though - you still have to find an answer to the first threat, and without 2 answers you're left waiting for a topdeck of one type or another.

I feel that aggro players can probably take the best advantage of bluffs and tells.  In aggro, you're playing with more working spells and not counters, so it'd help if you could read the control player's tells and bluff out your own spells on dares - dare them to counter a small threat, then hold on to other more powerful threats while they squirm.  Or bait a counter with a small threat, then play the larger threat.

In the end though, I don't take much stock in bluffs and tells - you're going to play the best way you can.  There's a lot to be lost in tempo if you're holding back, and sometimes NOT playing a bomb or counter in response to something is the worst thing you can do.  Do you really dare not counter their spell if there's nothing else you can do about it?

I feel that bluffing isn't in the best interest of Magic players - in the end, it comes down to the math (his 2 threats, and your 1 answer), probability, luck, and doing what you have to do to survive.
Logged

He said he would stop the motor of the world, and we were scared because we believed him.  He looked like a man who knew he was right.
The M.E.T.H.O.D
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 474



View Profile
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2004, 04:30:38 pm »

"I feel that bluffing isn't in the best interest of Magic players - in the end, it comes down to the math (his 2 threats, and your 1 answer), probability, luck, and doing what you have to do to survive." COLDER

By saying bluffing is important we are not diminishing all the other aspects like strategy, the math, the top deck, favorable matchups, and metagaming, we are just saying that all these concepts are meshed together and work together.  You need good playskill, you need the draws, and you also need to know how to read your opponent.  You could be the best in one of these areas and the worst at the rest, you would still lose.

The goal of this article is just to help people come to the realization that with bluffing along with all the other areas need to be improved upon as a whole to become a better player.  If MTG is just as important to you as it is to me, it would be something that we should work on.  People frequently say stuff like "who cares about all that, I just play for fun."  My usual response would be something in a non bad way along the lines of "Wouldn't it be more fun if you were better, and won?"  Another part of MTG thats makes it so much fun is all the little details that go along with the game. I'm still a noob compared to others but im getting better every day, no worries man, no worries.
Logged

Team Meandeck: classy old folks that meet up at the VFW on leap year
waSP
Plays bad decks
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 182


79608067 wasp1028
View Profile
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2004, 06:51:23 pm »

Neat post here, Jeff.  Now i'm going to be a lot more self-conscious when playing.  Luckily for me, all the control players around here (all 3 of them) are too egoistic to deal with my techy 0wn4g3 of their playstyles.  I liked this article until the end (it lacked a solid conclusion).  Also, some of the paragraphs don't transition at all, really.  You should write more, this is interesting.
Logged

Churchill: wtf the luftwaffle is attacking me
Frost
Basic User
**
Posts: 26


tke972sparky
View Profile
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2004, 08:01:06 pm »

So much of bluffing is intelligent play.  How you tap your lands.  What mana you leave available can send signals to your opponant about the cards in your hand.  I notice a lot of players who tell me their hand just by what lands they tap.

Second, there is something that needs to be said for how condident you are when/as you make your plays.  You can send subtle signals to your opponant.  If you play frustrated your opponant knows they can up the pressure somewhat.  If you play loose and confident it is harder to tell what your situation really is.
Logged

That Damn Good!
LotusHead
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 2785


Team Vacaville


View Profile
« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2004, 08:27:09 pm »

On Bluffing,

I am a friendly player, but I do use my bluffing skills in any game.
Keeping Land in my Hand is a great trick (my oldest tech), but what I do (damn you all if you use this against me!) is to simply wait out their turn with a "Play what you will, I'll decide after you do...". Basically, I keep a good Magic Face.  No gloating, no sweating.  Just patiently wait for them to make their move.  

Then only time I lost is was when I played against Long.dec for the first time after a 48 hour Magic Fit.  I even had my pre-The Mana Drain Awareness Fish deck type thing.  I lost turn 2 with a Force of Will in hand.  (grrrr).  My opponent had 2 Force of Wills (and like 10 other cards...)
Logged

Moxlotus
Teh Absolut Ballz
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 2199


Where the fuck are my pants?

moxlotusgws
View Profile
« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2004, 10:33:33 pm »

My best bluff(well technically it's not a bluff, it's more a confusing tactic) is to board in my entire sideboard and then remove the 15 cards. Even if you are putting in 1 card board them all in.  

How many pyros is he bringing in against me?  How many Tormod's Crypts does he play?  I know he has to play a few but I don't know how many.  There is actually no reason not to do this(unless time is an issue).  

Doing it after game 2 is also a good strategy, but some players may claim stalling if the time is actually an issue, so don't be that big of an ass.
Logged

Cybernations--a free nation building game.
http://www.cybernations.net
Phantom Tape Worm
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 179


my+wang+is+yello
View Profile Email
« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2004, 11:33:41 pm »

Quote from: Moxlotus
My best bluff(well technically it's not a bluff, it's more a confusing tactic) is to board in my entire sideboard and then remove the 15 cards. Even if you are putting in 1 card board them all in.  

How many pyros is he bringing in against me?  How many Tormod's Crypts does he play?  I know he has to play a few but I don't know how many.  There is actually no reason not to do this(unless time is an issue).  

Doing it after game 2 is also a good strategy, but some players may claim stalling if the time is actually an issue, so don't be that big of an ass.


I'll testify to the strength of this tactic.  It worked on me last year :p



That said, about bluffing, do like smmenen said and just play confident.  

Quote
And confidence and a positive attitude.


This is really what should be addressed before bluffing.  Confidence is the single most important characteristic a male can have to be successful in anything; be it sales, dating, life or cards.  And IMO it is actually a prerequisite to any kind of "bluffing" or "mind games" you intend to use in your game.  After all, how will you be able to bluff your opponent if you haven't the confidence to stop your hands from shaking as you reach to read one of his cards?
Logged

Team Short Bus - Kowal has a big butt in the butt with a butt in the anal super pow.
Rico Suave
True
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 799


Omnibrad
View Profile Email
« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2004, 12:39:44 am »

Quote from: Moxlotus
My best bluff(well technically it's not a bluff, it's more a confusing tactic) is to board in my entire sideboard and then remove the 15 cards. Even if you are putting in 1 card board them all in.  


Actually, I've found it's better if you don't do the whole SB.  A person will see 15 cards and think you're pulling a trick.  However, if you board in like 10 or so cards, that is much more convincing because many decks actually do board in that many cards in some cases.
Logged

Suddenly, Fluffy realized she wasn't quite like the other bunnies anymore.

-Team R&D-
-noitcelfeR maeT-
ELD
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 1462


Eric Dupuis

ericeld1980
View Profile
« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2004, 01:33:00 am »

The best bluff I've ever seen was during a control mirror.  Eric Turner made the play.  Tog vs Phid.  Long drawn-out war of attrition got them to this point.  BBS cast Stroke of Genius EOT for 5 tapping out.  Tog with 2 cards in hand looks at his 4 available mana.  Just an island and an intuition in hand.  He intuitions, acts frustrated as if he only has 2 misdirects left in the deck (he actually had 3 left).  He grabs the lone force spike and puts it with them to give the opponent the choice of Mis'd or force spike.  Of course, the opponent chose the force spike believing the island was a blue card.  The spell got countered in a situation where, if it weren't for the bluff, it would have resolved and won the game.  Turner went on to top-deck a counterspell and then some card drawing on his way to a win.  That's good type 1.  

Peace,
Eric
ELD
Logged

unrestrict: Freedom
Methuselahn
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 1051


View Profile
« Reply #22 on: February 13, 2004, 01:40:58 am »

Quote from: Phantom Tape Worm
 

Quote
And confidence and a positive attitude.


This is really what should be addressed before bluffing.  Confidence is the single most important characteristic a male can have to be successful in anything; be it sales, dating, life or cards.  And IMO it is actually a prerequisite to any kind of "bluffing" or "mind games" you intend to use in your game.  After all, how will you be able to bluff your opponent if you haven't the confidence to stop your hands from shaking as you reach to read one of his cards?


I agree and disagree.  Sure, you should have confidence and a positive attitude, but that is simply a prerequisite to life in general.  Bluffing and recognizing tells is a learned skill.  Through teachings and experience you better your ability to bluff and read tells.  I can have no confidence in my current board position or ability to win a current game, yet be able to read tells, bluff, and play mind games like Darth Vader himself.
Logged
Phantom Tape Worm
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 179


my+wang+is+yello
View Profile Email
« Reply #23 on: February 13, 2004, 02:27:07 pm »

Quote from: Methuselahn

I agree and disagree.  Sure, you should have confidence and a positive attitude, but that is simply a prerequisite to life in general.  Bluffing and recognizing tells is a learned skill.  Through teachings and experience you better your ability to bluff and read tells.  I can have no confidence in my current board position or ability to win a current game, yet be able to read tells, bluff, and play mind games like Darth Vader himself.


Negative good sir.  I'm not speaking of confidence in your current board position or the smug sensation that comes along with knowing you are about to win.  Rather, I'm speaking of confidence in your ability to play well no matter what and the very related ability of keeping your faculties about you while under high pressure.  

I've seen too many players seize up during games and forget everything they know about probability, knowledge of optimal plays, strategy, hell, even combat math, you name it.  Their brains lock up and they begin to make mistakes.  And this isn’t just n00bs I’m talking about, this is a phenomena that happens to everyone, even the “good” players.

You’re talking about the mental game that happens beyond the cards and the board position and the numbers etc (which btw excellent thread).   I’m telling you that no discussion of bluffs and tells, which are just minor nuances in this mental game beyond the cards, is complete without a discussion of the big picture.  That big picture revolves around confidence.

IMO there are actually two aspects to the game of magic, one is the knowledge aspect.  This is the aspect that our forum is largely devoted to, it involves knowing your deck, knowing your opponents deck, knowing what cards are good, knowing the metagame breakdown, knowing probabilities, knowing card interactions, knowing rules, etc, etc.  This is the aspect that consumes most “good” players and if you do most of your playing on apprentice, this is primarily what you are working with.

The second aspect to the game of MTG is psychological.  This psychological aspect is rarely discussed at all (again, kudos on a great thread), at least not on these boards.  This aspect involves your ability to stay calm under pressure, induce anxiety in your opponent, bluff, read tells, monitor your body language, lead your opponent, etc.  I believe this psychological part of the game is extremely important, even in type 1; it can make a “good” player into a great one.  

Of course, it is much harder to learn about this second aspect of magic…while you can simply read tourney reports in order to gain knowledge of the metagame, and you can just read a book on statistics to gain a working knowledge of probabilities, you can’t truly learn “the ability to stay calm under pressure” without experience.  The more experience you have, the more comfortable you will feel in high-pressure situations.  The more comfortable you feel, the more confident you will be in yourself.  When the pressure is on, if you are confident in yourself, you are less likely to fall into a situation where your brain locks up.  This is the core of the mental game.  The pressure will be on, you must be able to utilize as much of your knowledge and abilities as possible under this pressure.  And conversely, if you can put your opponent into this state where he can no longer utilize his knowledge and abilities optimally, you have an advantage.

Learning to read your opponent’s tells and bluff your own strength is very important to your game because it will help you to lead your opponent.  And you should always be looking for a way to lead him psychologically into a position where he can no longer take full advantage of his knowledge and abilities.  

Again, a discussion of tells and bluffs is incomplete without a discussion of confidence.
Logged

Team Short Bus - Kowal has a big butt in the butt with a butt in the anal super pow.
Moxlotus
Teh Absolut Ballz
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 2199


Where the fuck are my pants?

moxlotusgws
View Profile
« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2004, 10:40:21 pm »

Quote from: Rico Suave
Quote from: Moxlotus
My best bluff(well technically it's not a bluff, it's more a confusing tactic) is to board in my entire sideboard and then remove the 15 cards. Even if you are putting in 1 card board them all in.  


Actually, I've found it's better if you don't do the whole SB.  A person will see 15 cards and think you're pulling a trick.  However, if you board in like 10 or so cards, that is much more convincing because many decks actually do board in that many cards in some cases.



It's not really a trick boarding in all 15 cards, it just doesn't let them know how many cards you are boarding in.  As I said, it's more of a confusing tactic.

Now say if you are playing Sligh against a blue deck, and you are packing 4 Scalds for anti blue--boarding in 8 cards(faking the 8 blast plan) and removing 4 that you never intended to put in becomes another viable strategy.
Logged

Cybernations--a free nation building game.
http://www.cybernations.net
Rico Suave
True
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 799


Omnibrad
View Profile Email
« Reply #25 on: February 13, 2004, 11:06:05 pm »

Quote from: Moxlotus
It's not really a trick boarding in all 15 cards, it just doesn't let them know how many cards you are boarding in.  As I said, it's more of a confusing tactic.

Now say if you are playing Sligh against a blue deck, and you are packing 4 Scalds for anti blue--boarding in 8 cards(faking the 8 blast plan) and removing 4 that you never intended to put in becomes another viable strategy.


I understand it's a confusing tactic, but I still don't see any advantage in using your method over the one I described.  By doing 11 or so cards instead of 15, you're still keeping a secret how many true cards you're boarding in.  

The only reason they wouldn't be confused is because they're falsely believing a wrong number, which is even better.
Logged

Suddenly, Fluffy realized she wasn't quite like the other bunnies anymore.

-Team R&D-
-noitcelfeR maeT-
defector
Basic User
**
Posts: 290


View Profile
« Reply #26 on: February 13, 2004, 11:47:33 pm »

Excellent article.  On the board issue, I think 8 is the right number, it shows two sets of 4, of what muct be a SB tuned to hate this deck.  I'll start doiing it and see how it works.  It's funny how tourney play changes one's psychology, knowing there's a nice prize on the line rather than nothing may afftect psychological play.  My hands still shake game 1 of any tourney with a real prize, it tells my opponent that I'm nervous, it probaby contributes to a few play errors as well.  On the other hand if I'm running sui, dark rit+duress+hymn happens no matter what your playing or how you prsent yourself, I may tell you something after I see your hand, but nothing i stopping that play.  This goes somewhere, but the jurisdiction of this part of the game I think is more for control and less for aggro and combo playstyles.
defector
Logged

I play fair symmetrical cards.
Avenged Sevenfold
Basic User
**
Posts: 108


View Profile Email
« Reply #27 on: February 14, 2004, 11:22:54 pm »

What I often check for is if my opponants fingersd are on there untapped lands during my turn. Another aspect is if there fingers are held on 1 card on there hand(usually force of will)
Logged

Don't hate me because im beautiful...Hate me because your girlfriend thinks im beautiful.
Jacob Orlove
Official Time Traveller of TMD
Administrator
Basic User
*****
Posts: 8074


When am I?


View Profile Email
« Reply #28 on: February 15, 2004, 11:27:48 am »

One point worth mentioning is that if you actually are siding in a number of cards, putthe cards you're siding out aside first, then put in the SB cards you're bringing in. If you actually are bringing in that many cards, this can intimidate them.

On the other hand, if you want to surprise them with how many cards you brought in, do the 15 card thing.
Logged

Team Meandeck: O Lord,
Guard my tongue from evil and my lips from speaking guile.
To those who slander me, let me give no heed.
May my soul be humble and forgiving to all.
Dante
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 1415


Netdecking better than you since newsgroup days

wdicks23
View Profile
« Reply #29 on: February 16, 2004, 10:15:06 pm »

Quote from: Smmenen
In my experience, bluffing and stuff like that makes a HUGE difference in the lower formats - limited, T2 - if only becuase games can turn on such a very small decision (esp. a tight draft).  

In Type One, games turn on making the correct play - not on CREATING the correct play - and this play is determined mostly by experience and how actual games play out.  

Steve


As someone who plays both Type 1 and poker (texas hold 'em, semi-professionally [ semi-professionally = at least 1 Big bet an hour over 500 hours/year for the last 3 years at a $10/20 game or bigger]), I have some comments I'd like to share:

- playing good, solid Magic/poker is FAR more important than bluffing or getting tells will ever be.  Anyone I've ever seen in the casino who lacks solid, basic poker skills but relies on bluffing are the people who pay my rent and buy me new clothes; I love these people.  Same for Magic.  You will never be a good player without learning solid Magic/poker.  The rest of the "soft" skills are simply the next step in your game to take you up from "good"

- "tells" vs "hand reading" - a tell is a specific sign that shows a specific thing, like a good hand vs bad hand (ala Teddy KGB's oreo cookies in "Rounders").  Unless you play with someone over hundreds of hours, it's doubtful you'll even be able to spot a useful, valid tell.  More important is ability to read hands - by this I mean based on the previous actions of that hand/game, you narrow down the opponents hand to a small range and act accordingly.  This really only comes with experience.

- in order to actually pull a bluff, your opponent must be thinking at a reasonable level (i.e. about what you have, not just their own cards).  You generally can't bluff bad opponents, they just aren't thinking on a high enough level to react to your bluff as you wish.

- In order to do any of the above successfully (bluff, call bluffs, read hands, etc), you need to think about these tactics away from the game so that you know when you can/should use the tactic and when not to.  Most of this knowledge comes from a combination of experience and study away from the table, all of which builds confidence.  confidence is intimidating.

Let me tell a story that is only partially related to Magic via the topics we're discussing here.  About 4 years ago, right after I started playing Hold Em seriously in a casino, I made the jump from $5/$10 to $10/$20.  I was easily killing the $5/$10 game, but most of the players were terrible and all of my winnings game from playing good, solid poker and letting my opponents give away their money (which is generally how all low limit tables are in a casino).  When I made the jump up, I didn't think I was timid, but the experienced players could seem to smell blood and I had a tough time, breaking even mostly.

I kept upbeat, stayed with my away from the table studying, only now I incorporated hand-reading into my studies (both at and away from the tables).  One night, after being bet into by a regular opponent, (my previous course of action in that spot would have been to fold) most of my brain was telling me "He has you beat.  You should fold", but this little nagging voice said, "no he doesn't - based on the action, he most likely has AK...." and after a 30-second inner monologue that really took about 1 second in my head, instead of reaching for my cards to fold, I was horrified to find myself cutting the chips to raise.  And he folded.  My hand-reading skills had finally coalesced from study and theory to something useful.

Fast-forward a month...I had just sat down and had to wait about 5 minutes before posting the blind, so I went outside for some air and 2 of the players at my table went outside to smoke.  I heard them talking around the corner..."did you see who just sat down?" "Yah, that kid's a tough player.  Nice guy, but I hate having him at our table"  "Yah, I hope he gets moved.."  Now these two had been playing for 10+ years, I really respected both player's game, and I had never really seen them have a losing session...and they were scared of me!  I tell you what, I sat down and ran over that table like Genghis Khan ran over Mongolia and never looked back.  Thinking back on that day, it was a culmination of all the poker skills to become a good, winning player (and start on the path to excellence) - starting hand selection, manipulation of pot size, recognizing opponent's game and adjusting, playing proper odds, inducing bluffs, and portraying extreme confidence in all situations (even after mind-boggling bad beats).

Hopefully this made sense to someone.

Bill

PS - on a side note, if anyone ever wants to play Hold Em at a Casino in the Chicago area, drop me a note, and we'll go to the Trump (best poker room in the area).
Logged

Team Laptop

I hate people.  Yes, that includes you.
I'm bringing sexy back
Pages: [1] 2
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.071 seconds with 21 queries.