Does affinity have the power to become the new madness?

[Reitz]

It took the type 1 magic community a while to realize that "Madness" was really good. I'm wondering if "Affinity" has been put to the test for the metagame. Affinity has cheap casting cost draw spells and undercosted creatures much like madness did, why isn't anyone trying to play Affinity?

I would like people to respond to this post by explaining why Affinity is not played and also to post Affinty decklist so that this riddle can finally be solved.

[Dr. Sylvan]

(1) In order to use artifact lands, you have to say "I lose" to Gorilla Shaman.

(2) There's more artifact hate than creature hate by far, so you're very vulnerable to Rack and Ruin, among other things.

(3) There's no advantage over TnT or Stacker in terms of significantly larger creatures or lower costs. The potential of using blue is stretched to the limit in an aggro deck that by nature runs so many artifacts instead of counters and draw.

If someone can overcome those problems (I'm sure there's a couple more I'm not thinking of) then it might be a more interesting deck. I certainly won't categorically dismiss it, but I doubt that there's something on the order of Bazaar (which is the foundation of modern Madness) that will break the mechanic.

[bebe]

Well I posted this deck jhaggs almost a month ago. It has been up on the blacklotus site since. We did some testing and found that the deck was a blast to play consistentlycapable of killing by turn three to five. To bad we do not play in a goldfish bowl.

4 Goblin Welder
4 Shrapnel Blast
2 Atog
1 Wheel of Fortune

4 Disciple of the Vault
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawg's Will

4 Pyrite Spellbomb
4 Frogmite
4 Arcbound Ravenger
4 Myr Enforcer
3 Skullclamp

7 Solomoxen  
4 Great Furnace
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Badlands
1 Grim Monolith
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Grim Monolith
1 Mana Vault

sb:
4 Blood Moon
4 R + R
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Tormod's Crypt  


Since posting the deck, we started seeing similar builds being touted for other formats with the same base cards. Even Legend has a block deck abusing some of these cards. Here is the problem. As fast as this deck is there are decks that are faster. Stax, WMUD and others are just better controling the board. If you do a search you will also find Broodstar runner deck which is also affinity based. A good deck but again suffering from the same problem.

On a similar note we tested an infinite deck using Voltaic Construct and found that we could go off turn two. Again, on paper it looks promising but pit these decks against other control and aggro control  decks and the outcomes are not as favorable.

[RoadTrippin]

If someone can overcome those problems (I'm sure there's a couple more I'm not thinking of) then it might be a more interesting deck. I certainly won't categorically dismiss it, but I doubt that there's something on the order of Bazaar (which is the foundation of modern Madness) that will break the mechanic.

Moxen maybe, which are doubly effective? I'm not trying to advocate for the deck or start an argument- just pointing out one thing it _does_ have going for it.

[Reitz]

Dr. Sylvan, I totally argee there is no bazzar type card for affinity, but does there really need to be? You brought up some very good reasons why affinity is not played. My point is that it still needs to be tested to make sure those statements are true. The only thing I disagree with is the auto loss against shaman. The Affinity built should be too fast for a shaman to make a game breaking difference.

Here is the Affinity deck I have been testing:


1 Mox jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox pearl
1 Mox emerald
1 Mox shapire
1 Black lotus
1 Sol ring
1 Mana cyrpt
1 Mana vault
1 Lion's eye Dimond
1 lotus petal
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Great Furnace
4 Vault of whispers
1 Tolarian Academy
3 Gemstone mine

4 Thoughtcast
3 Atog
2 lighting greaves
4 myr enforcer
4 frogmite
3 chormatic sphere
1 tinker
1 windfall
1 Yawgmoth's will
1 timewister
3 brainstorm
1 Demonic tutor
1 wheel of fortune
1 time walk
1 Ancestral recall
1 vampiric tutor
1 memory jar

[MadManiac21]

I think what needs to be approached by this is more of a MUD or TnT variant with some affinity attributes. An example would be broodstarrunner.dec which samitheealer(jeff) and several others have piloted to some good results. Making a pure affinity deck would be hard with so many null rods running rampant. You also now have another item which is going to hurt your affinity; Trinisphere. A (most likely to become staple) artifact in your opposing artifact decks is going to put a hamper on your affinity plans, barring you from having your "free" stuff from costing under 3.

Stuff like myr enforcer or thoughtcast suck hard against mana drain. I think it's more of a neat trick then something to build a deck around. Workshops would definately need to be incorporated, so that even if you only have a couple artifacts you can still drop your bombs.

[Xhad]

Turn 2 Null Rod.  Go ahead, play all the artifact lands you want.

[Alfred]

I think that you guys are forgetting one of the better affinity cards for this deck: somber hoverguard. It's 3/2 flyer that comes out for next to nothing. Also, lotus petal, lion's eye diamond (in particular) and skullclamp aren't very good cards for a deck that should be as fast as possible. Lotus petal, unlike moxen only counts as one mana rather than one mana, and one affinity.

Here is a list that I think would be the fastest (and probably the most viable):

4x Shrapnel blast
4x Myr Enforcer
4x Frogmite
4x Atog
4x Ornithopter
4x Somber hoverguard
4x Bonesplitter
4x Tooth of chis-goria
4x Pyrite Spellbomb
3x Cursed Scroll/chromatic sphere
1x Lotus Petal
7x SoloMoxen
1x Mana crypt
1x Mana Vault
4x Seat of the synod
4x Great furnace
3x Glimmervoid

EDIT:
-1 Grim monolith
-4 lightning bolt
+1 Glimmervoid
+1 Lotus Petal
+3 Cursed Scroll/chromatic sphere

I need to test out whether I need more color balancing or more damage, so I'll tell you which one is better.

[Iron_Chef]

I think with T1 you have to take a different direction with affinity.  Also, look at 2 cards which you are ignoring in these builds.. Mishra's Workshop and Metalworker.  I suggest take a look at Samite Healer's Thread about his brainchild BroodStarRunner.dec at http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9230.  This deck is I believe the closest thing to a competitive T1 Affinity Deck I've seen yet.  True, the build differs from T2 more then adding 5 moxen and power, but that is a credit to its strenght, not weakness.

Just for references, here's the current build of BroodStarRunner.dec

BroodstarRunner.dec version 2.0 (60 Cards)

4 Juggernaut
4 Myr Enforcer {The Beatdown}
2 Triskelion

4 Goblin Welder {Utility Critters}
4 Metalworker

3 Tangle Wire {Disruption and Awesomeness}
3 Lightning Greaves

2 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Wheel of Fortune {Draw and Search}
1 Memory Jar
1 Tinker
1 Timetwister
1 Time Walk

1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus {The Manabase}
1 Mana Vault
1 Grim Monolith
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Island
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Workshop

EDIT: Azn James contributed alot to this decklist as well. sry for the exclusion  :lol:

[Xhad]

How can that rightfully be called an affinity deck?  Other than the Myr Enforcer there's not a single affinity card.

"BroodStarRunner" isn't abusing affinity, it's abusing Mishra's Workshop, which people have been doing since before Mirrodin came out.  The question isn't "Is this Affinity deck good?" but rather "How does this Workshop deck compare to existing Workshop decks?"

EDIT: Another point to be made is that BroodStarRunner is a perfect example of deck drift; someone tries to break Affinity and ends up with an odd Workshop deck.

[riggy]

Lotus petal, unlike moxen only counts as one mana rather than one mana, and one affinity.

If I understand affinity correctly, you announce your spell, determine it's cc, and then pay for it. So the petal will be a one shot use counting for both affinity and mana.

[Alfred]

There is quite a bit of unintentional hate for affinity in the environment right now, due to it's reliance on 0 cc artfacts and artifacts in general. Therefor, I think that the only way for affinity to be any good in this format is for it to be as fast as possible.

@Xhad
Turn 2 null rod? That wont be too useful when the affinity player dumps his/her entire hand on turn one. Not only is this possible, it happens quite often as well, probably as often as someone gets a null rod in their opening 8 cards.

@riggy
If that is indeed the case, then it would be a perfect fit in this deck.

Utility creatures would be fine, if this deck had any room for them. But as I see it, I don't think they deserve a spot. I think that this deck's sole goal would be to drop your opponent's life from 20-0 as fast as possible, to negate any of your opponent's attempts to get back in the game.

[Xhad]

Riggy: You are correct.

Alfred: Even if you DO drop your entire hand turn 1, not being able to do anything else for the rest of the game is rather crippling.

[Raven Fire]

Turn 2 null rod? That wont be too useful when the affinity player dumps his/her entire hand on turn one.

I'd say that if a card can literally stop half of someone's deck (well, 29 cards from your decklist; 33 if the Bonesplitters have't been equiped yet), it has to be considered pretty useful.  What makes it especially problematic is that many decks already maindeck a few of them.

[Alfred]

If you drop your whole hand on turn one, you will probably have  +4 worth of damage on the board, which is usually means you have won the game. Even if you do manage to drop a null rod, many of the affinity creatures do not require the tapping of any artifacts in order to be cast. I do agree that a null rod would hurt this deck, it wouldn't be the game ending play that you implied.

[Vegeta2711]

You guys are missing the boat here. Basically Affinity isn't more powerful aggro wise than any existing Workshop deck. Building it as aggro-combo'ish doesn't work either, because FCG owns that. So what are you left with?

Aggro-Control

If you go with a T2 10 counter Affinity deck you'll notice a few things.
A. 10 Counters
B. Solid draw from Thirst + Thoughtcast
C. Small tempoish critters backed by large painful creatures that be slow played. (Frogmite, Myr Enforcer and BROODSTAR)

Now convert this to T1 terms. Trade the bad counters in for some good ones, FoW, Mana Drain, etc. maybe leave Override much like some Madness run Circular Logic. Throw an Ancestral into the draw category and maybe a Draw-7 if you feel lucky. Add the SoLoMoxen and maybe a few other accelerants, then suddenly you basically have an Affinity Fish deck. That might actually be workable.  

[virtual]

I have actually been working on a deck with this premise Vegeta.  It can be very explosive, and does fairly well against the field.  My actual decklist is at home, so I can post it later.  There are a few potential problems with it that cause to not be very workable though.  The urge for an early workshop contradicts your controlling aspect.  My deck isn't entirely based around affinity, but it takes advantage of myr enforcers as decent sized, cheap beats, and Thoughtcast for drawing.  I had a lot of success with the free counters, so I ran a full set of 4x force of will, and misdirection.  The list looked something like this:

4x chalice
4x Myr Enforcer
3x Lodestone Myr
?x Sphere of resistance
1x Timewalk
1x Ancestral

4x Force of Will
4x Misdirection
4x Thoughtcast
1-2x rush of knowledge
1-2x broodstar

4x metalworker

Lots of moxen, some search lands, some seats of the synod, and some islands, and an academy

From my experience, this deck has major problems with hate.  Null rod pretty much is the suck.  Also, because I didn't splash anything else, it has a hard time removing anything that it didn't counter.  The Lodestones and the Enforcers make for decent beatdown, and you usually end up with so many artifacts in play that your lodestones can do alright.  Also, if you can resolve a rush of knowledge you can just explode with a metalworker, and usually that's game against anyone.  Chalice for 2 is brutal against lots of decks.  That is usually the first thing this deck tries to setup, or perhaps chalice for 1, if you happen to know what you're up against.  The draw engine isn't as solid as it could be, thoughcast only nets you a single card gained.  It's probably workable as a deck, but I'm not sure it could become tier 1.  Keeper can just get too many answers for it, and since the counters are all at a card disadvantage, I've found it difficult to win.  It seems to do best against decks like Oshawa that can't stop it from just pumping out fat, and drawing into more fat.  

Anyways, sorry to ramble.  What are people's thoughts.  Can it go anywhere?  Is it worth splashing a color?  What can be done about null rod or adding removal.  If you try the mana drain plan that disrupts your early drops as you usually won't have enough artifacts to put an enforcer out for free.  Also, I don't think Frogmites are big enough to be considered for T1.  </ramble>

-Virtual

[Matt]

If you drop your whole hand on turn one, you will probably have  +4 worth of damage on the board, which is usually means you have won the game. Even if you do manage to drop a null rod, many of the affinity creatures do not require the tapping of any artifacts in order to be cast. I do agree that a null rod would hurt this deck, it wouldn't be the game ending play that you implied.

If my deck can't stop a 4/4 (or 4/2) after shutting down half your deck with one card, I deserve to lose.

[urza_insane]

I have been messing around with Affinity for the past few weeks and have several working builds spanning all the colors of magic (all with blue for the crazy powerful Thoughtcast). I believe Affinity has the potential to actually become somehting and just needs some work. What is magic all aobut? Speed. That is why Mishra's Workshop and madness have become to powerful. Affinity is probably the best example of speed in Type 1, I have dropped multiple 4/4s and 2/2s on turn one. This is some good i'm told     .

I was waiting to get some more testing in, but here are a few of my better builds-

Baisic mono-blue build-
// 0cc
        4 Ornithopter
        4 Phyrexian Walker
        4 Shield Sphere
        4 Welding Jar
        4 Tormod's Crypt
// killers
        4 Tooth of Chiss-Goria
        4 Frogmite
        4 Myr Enforcer
        4 Arcbound Ravager
// stuff
        4 Thoughtcast
        4 AEther Spellbomb
        1 Black Vise
// mana
        1 Lotus Petal
        1 Mana Vault
        1 Mana Crypt
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Darksteel Citadel
        4 Seat of the Synod
        6 Island
SB:  4 Stifle
SB:  4 Annul
SB:  4 Back to Basics
SB:  3 Winter Orb

UR build using Welder-
// 0cc
        4 Ornithopter
        4 Phyrexian Walker
        4 Shield Sphere
        4 Tormod's Crypt
// killers
        4 Frogmite
        4 Myr Enforcer
        4 Arcbound Ravager
        3 Shrapnel Blast
// stuff
        4 Thoughtcast
        4 Goblin Welder
        4 Ankh of Mishra
        1 Black Vise
// mana
        1 Lotus Petal
        1 Mana Vault
        1 Mana Crypt
        1 Sol Ring
        4 Seat of the Synod
        4 Great Furnace
        4 Glimmervoid
SB:  4 Stifle
SB:  4 Annul
SB:  4 Winter Orb
SB:  3 Rack and Ruin

A semi-controlish UW build-
// 0cc
        4 Ornithopter
        4 Phyrexian Walker
        3 Shield Sphere
        4 Welding Jar
        4 Tormod's Crypt
// killers
        4 Arcbound Worker
        4 Frogmite
        4 Myr Enforcer
        4 Arcbound Ravager
// stuff
        4 Thoughtcast
        4 Swords to Plowshares
        1 Black Vise
// mana
        1 Lotus Petal
        1 Mana Vault
        1 Mana Crypt
        1 Sol Ring
        4 Seat of the Synod
        4 Ancient Den
        4 Tundra
SB:  4 Disenchant
SB:  4 Annul
SB:  4 Winter Orb
SB:  3 Blue Elemental Blast

My control build-
// 0cc
        4 Ornithopter
        4 Phyrexian Walker
        4 Tormod's Crypt
// killers
        4 Frogmite
        4 Myr Enforcer
        4 Arcbound Ravager
// stuff
        4 Thoughtcast
        3 Thirst for Knowledge
        4 Override
        4 Force of Will
        4 Mana Leak
// mana
        1 Lotus Petal
        1 Mana Vault
        1 Mana Crypt
        1 Sol Ring
        4 Seat of the Synod
        4 Ancient Den
        4 Tundra
SB:  4 Disenchant
SB:  4 Swords to Plowshares
SB:  4 Annul
SB:  3 Winter Orb

Some cards I want to try-
Jinxed Idol
Disciple of the Vault
Thirst for Knowledge (found I couldn't get to 3 mana )
Broodstar (found the Ravager faster overall)
Somber Hoverguard
Quicksilver Behemoth


I will probably end up making another post about this down the line, but I want to test some more. I think Affinity has a real chance on being powerful and budget (if you noticed, none of my builds have cards over $20   ) This are all extremely powerful builds that I have tested against power decks with. Adding moxen will only speed the deck up. Affinity 4L!

[Smash]

What in holy hell..

you are playing shield sphere in a non-fruity pebbles deck? And thropter? NO!!!!

T1 has so many better options... even in t2 affinity, you have tooth as a free drop to speed up affinity. You do not need to play 30 0 casting cost artifacts that do NOTHING. That is simply retarded.

[virtual]

"Well, they aren't exactly "retarded" if the ravager is killed, they can get the tokens from it.  And they're eatable.   I guess you could swing for the kill with an ornithopter, sac the ravager to itself, then move what counters were on it to the thopter, if they couldn't block your flyers.  Or if they only had 1 blocker, attack w/ both.  Granted it's not superb, but they're aren't totally useless.

-Virtual

[defector]

I've had some experience against some affinity style stuff, nothing really t1 powered but a signicant section of the list.  The games go like this, Affinity plays a lot of spells, uses a small but numerous offense to whittle my life, there is a counter war over pernicous deed.  Deed resolves, the game is over.  I play stax and haven'tr struggled with anythig affinity based, maybe its the lack of draw in what i'm facing or removal, but an early smokestack is enough to seal the deal.  I don't know, there might be something there, it just looks so vulnerable.  The deck can't contend with an active welder, thats for sure.  
defector

[urza_insane]

The only "useless" one from my 0cc is Shield Sphere as it cannot attack. Having Walker and Ornithopter have won me many games. They have 1 or 2 blockers? They have a Moat? No problem. You attack with all, they declare blockers then you sac the ravager to pump the other attackers.  If you really hate the 0/* creatures you could play Arcbound Worker which I have found works well. The Tormod's Crypt helps A LOT as with no counters combo is a near auto-loss for any affinity deck. The Bauble is baisically a free affinity booster as it cantrips. Those cards are all in for the ravager and are never dead with one in play. Don't think these builds are untested, I have tested them ALL against a wide variety of decks and they have all done incredibly well. Stax, Dragon, Elves, Fish, Standstill, Oshawa, Hulk. I'm not "retarted" I know what I'm doing, each card has a reason for being included.

EDIT: Thanks for backing me up Virtual  

[urza_insane]

I've been testing and Aggro-Control IS NOT the way to go. Affinity wants to be blazing fast, but you have to play conservatively with the control aspect. Leaving lands untapped in the first few turns is not what Affinity wants to do. The two concepts are almost counteractive and work horribly together. Gro is much better in this field. I also found I couldn't pack enough blue to make use of MisD or Force, the 2 counters that might have actually worked. I prefer the techy Aggro versions. I have a new version I'm working on and it is showing a lot of promise.

[Raven Fire]

If you drop your whole hand on turn one, you will probably have  +4 worth of damage on the board, which is usually means you have won the game. Even if you do manage to drop a null rod, many of the affinity creatures do not require the tapping of any artifacts in order to be cast. I do agree that a null rod would hurt this deck, it wouldn't be the game ending play that you implied.

If my deck can't stop a 4/4 (or 4/2) after shutting down half your deck with one card, I deserve to lose.

No doubt.  A 5 turn clock without major backup isn't going to exactly tear up the format.