[Deck] Clamp of Kher Keep

[DrLambda]

OK, this is the Skullclamp-Kobold Deck i've been testing for some time online now.

//NAME: Clamp of Kher Keep
// Creatures (22)
        4 Crimson Kobolds
        4 Kobolds of Kher Keep
        4 Crookshank Kobolds
        4 Xantid Swarm
        2 Blood Pet
        4 [card]Myr Moonvessel[/card]
// Spells (32)
        4 Dark Ritual
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mana Vault
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Chrome Mox
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mana Crypt
        1 Lotus Petal
        1 Sol Ring
        4 Carnival of Souls
        1 Enlightened Tutor
        1 Demonic Consultation
        1 Yawgmoth's Will
        1 Vampiric Tutor
        1 Demonic Tutor
        3 Tendrils of Agony
        1 Spoils of the Vault
        4 Skullclamp
// Lands (6)
        4 Gemstone Mine
        2 Gaea's Cradle

I found a decklist of that one online some time ago (Sorry, can't remember from where). The only thing i changed is that i removed 4x Serum Powder (really, the chance of drawing a hand you want to remove is around 0%) and added 2 Gaeas Cradle, 1 Spoils of the Vault and 1 Tendrils (I removed both Tendrils while consulting Demons way to often)
The Cradle gives you an additional boost and a backup plan if you really draw into 2 dead cards. Also, it makes a whole lot of mana in your Yawg-Win Turn so you can get around a Stifle and play a second Tendrils without running in danger of killing yourself by playing creatures.
The deck currently has no sideboard and simply falls to Trinisphere. It is delayed a lot by chalice and Sphere of Resistance. If i can somehow work around this, this is a cool combo deck.
Err... Discuss.

[Haksaw]

The obvious Elvish Spirit Guide would help with the Sphere of Resistance problem, not to mention generating green for your Xantid Swarm...but other than that, you're going to just roll over to Stax or WelderMUD (with any of their lock conditions: Sphere of Resistance, Trinisphere, or even Chalice of the Void for 0).  

And there's only 18 mana sources that are "permanent", a countered Carnival of Souls leaves you relying on a shaky base, and grasping for Dark Ritual.  

I'd cut at least one Tendrils of Agony, and make a more consistent black mana base to cover Necropotence...cutting Spoils of the Vault at the same time.  And I'd have to argue with the single Enlightened Tutor, as you've only got 7 possible white mana sources, counting Black Lotus, which I don't think you're ever going to want to sac for triple white.  I can't really see a black spell I'd like to put under the Chrome Mox (Blood Pet?), so I'd end up making Red, and that's counterproductive.

That's just my first run through, if you could talk through your turn strategies, it be easier to tweak...

[XnecrontyrX]

very cute deck, but I wonder, couldnt it be improved by using creatures that have cc 0-3 and alluren.  For that matter why is this better than alluren.dec?

[jpmeyer]

Because you only need to resolve a 2cc spell rather than a 4cc spell?

[Hi-Val]

I have been playing around with this deck and I find that Tangleroot seems to work better than Carnival, and Second Sunrise has high potential for brokenness in the deck. Some considerations.

[Astro]

I've been goldfishing for about an hour now, and I'm not totally certain either Carnival or Tangle Root are that necessary.  If I had to choose, I think I'd play the Carnival based apon the fact that it gives you B rather than G.  Casting a Tendrils off G mana is a bit tough.  So far I can generally win turn 2 without em, but they have been decent when I've played em.  Definately needs more testing.

So far Gaea's Cradle has been worthless to me.  Most of the time my Kobolds are immediately sacked to the Clamp, so I never get to abuse them.  Sure I can get alot of G mana, but even if I did what the hell am I supposed to do with it?

Blood Pet's ability has been totally useless to me.  With all of the off color mana floating around I've replaced them with Initiates of the Ebon Hand.   Worth taking a look at anyhow.

[Celandro]

The deck has no way to win without skullclamp, so you have to aggressively mulligan until it or a tutor  is in your hand. Then you have to try to get it into play, which against control means a xantid swarm. Then you have to have a carnival of souls in order to go off.  If the skullclamp does not get into play, or is shattered you simply cannot win. If the carnival of souls does not get into play or is disenchanted you will have a hard time winning.

With all the hate out there, id guess this is a 1 trick pony that isnt reliable enough to win a tournament. In short, there is no plan B and certain openings will stop the deck in its tracks (tsphere/chalice for 0) and there is no way out.

[Astro]

Yes, you do need the Skullclamp to go off, but you don't need Carnival of Souls.  Half of the wins I've tested I didn't even need to cast the Carnival.  Infact the last two solo games I tested I went off 1st turn.  

On the other hand this deck does need some way to battle control other than Xantid.  Most of the time I cast a Xantid I end up immediately sacking it to the Clamp and it's ability never got used.  Duress seems almost the obvious solution.

[urza_insane]

What happens when the opponent drops a first turn Null Rod, chalice or Trinisphere? Seems like a fun deck, but easily disrupted.

[Avenged Sevenfold]

What happens when the opponent drops a first turn Null Rod, chalice or Trinisphere? Seems like a fun deck, but easily disrupted.

Thats what a sideboard is for buddy.

[Tempe]

The first thread for this deck is here. I'll quote my response from there, as it is equally applicable here.

If you're going purely for speed, I've been playing a similar version for a bit, and its average win is turn 2-3.

//NAME: ClampATack
        4 Bayou
        4 City of Traitors
        1 Mana Crypt
        1 Sol Ring
        4 Elvish Spirit Guide
        1 Mana Vault
        1 Lotus Petal
        4 Songs of the Damned
        4 Serum Powder
        1 Fastbond
        1 Tendrils of Agony
        1 Yawgmoth's Will
        4 Myr Retriever
        4 Myr Moonvessel
        4 Crookshank Kobolds
        4 Crimson Kobolds
        4 Kobolds of Kher Keep
        3 Xantid Swarm
        2 Fecundity
        4 Tangleroot
        4 Skullclamp

[card]Fecundity[/card] solves the problem of fizzling because you run out of creatures, and [card]Songs of the Damned[/card] solves the mana problem. Tada!

I firmly believe that the Powder is necessary. It increases your chance to get the first turn combo going by a good percentage, and you have so much draw when you are going off that drawing a dead powder isn't too much of a hindrance. There is no way this deck will be anything other than a blazing fast combo deck that can be easily disrupted, so you might as well take advantage of its speed.

--Tempe

[martyr]

here's my take.

Essentials
4x Skullclamp
4x Kobolds of Kher Khep
4x Crimson Kobolds
4x Crookshank Kobolds
4x Carnival of Souls (Whatever you say, this really is necessary)
20x

Win Condition
1x Yawgmoth's Will
3x Tendrils of Agony
4x

Tutors/Card Drawing/Consistency
4x Serum Powder
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Demonic Consultation
7x

Disruption/Protection
3x Duress
3x Xantid Swarm
6x

Mana/Acceleration
4x Bayou
4x Land Grant
1x Lotus Petal
1x Mana Crypt
1x Sol Ring
4x Dark Ritual
4x Songs of the Damned
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
23x

Some of your guys' builds look a little more complete, but I'm comfortable with this one: it's pretty consistent.

[jsg7440]

Just a little quip...

I have been testing this deck for a little over a week now, and I have found a few things very interesting.  

First, Serum Powder is a house in this deck.  You have to mulligan aggressively with this deck, and Serum Powder allows you to have more chances at a winning hand.

Second, the main problem the deck faces is not having enough mana during the "pre-going off" phase.  Too many times I have found myself 1 mana short, although I believe that ESG's are a mistake for this deck.  The deck needs more access to black mana in the maindeck.

Lastly, as I always do with any deck I test, I ask those around me what they think, or what they can put in.  During this process, my friend, Andy Hiser (give credit where credit is due) suggested the use of Reaping the Graves.  I just about creamed my pants when I saw this card.  It is like running up to 5 Yawgmoth's Wills in the Maindeck.  This card has singlehandedly pulled me out of otherwise unwinnable situations.  I hope that others give this card a chance and test it, since my testing has told me that this card is a house in this deck.  

Tell me what you guys think.

[Astro]

Thats hilarious that you mentioned Reaping the Graves.  My good buddy (you guys might know him as Delete Head on TMD) also recomended that card as the additional 4 Wills.  I haven't play tested it yet, but I'm going to give it a shot.

Anyway, I played it on apprentice today, and I have to say that this deck gets udderly raped by MUD and Slavery.  Chalice just straight up hoses this deck.  Absolutely nothing you can do.  So far in my play testing it's extremely  fragile.

[DrLambda]

If youre running an ESG build, you can also SB Oxidize against anything MUD. Theres not much more you can do.

Reaping the Graves... i'm even playing these in Fluctuator, should've remembered that. I'll give it a try.

[jsg7440]

DrLambda, you have an excellent point that this deck rolls over and plays dead to a lot of current decks.  I like your idea of using the ESG's to play oxidize off from.  Previously, I was using ESG's to cast Fecundity, but I soon realized that the draw potential of this deck was not the problem, the problem lied in the mana production, and the ability to "chain" things together.

I will do further testing with Bayous and ESG's.

I urge all people who want to play this deck to use the 4 Spoils to their full power.  When I first began testing this deck, I was totally focused on just doing Tendrils for the exact amount needed, but I am now finding that this deck can easily do 10 damage, then use a spoils during the next turn to set up another Tendril's for the kill.  It makes your "going off" turn less likely to stall you out and lose you the game because you didn't draw another Kobold.

Blood Pet, for now, must stay in my deck, since I sometimes need that extra on color mana to help push the deck over the edge, although I plan on testing the Initiates (I think these guys are probably the way to go).  What other mana producers can this deck use to power its win though?  I don't like the Gaea's Cradle idea, due to the same reasons others have posted.  

Just a quick question for those testing this deck, how much land are you using?  I am currently useing 6 lands, but I almost think this is too high of a land count for this deck.

[pi]

Blood Pet, for now, must stay in my deck, since I sometimes need that extra on color mana to help push the deck over the edge, although I plan on testing the Initiates (I think these guys are probably the way to go).  What other mana producers can this deck use to power its win though?  I don't like the Gaea's Cradle idea, due to the same reasons others have posted.

Maybe you could use priest of gix or chromatic sphere to help power the win? You might even try culling the weak.

Also, has anyone considered channel for the more green oriented versions like Tempe's? It may help provide the mana during the "pre-going off" phase jsg7440 is referring to.

pi

[jsg7440]

I don't want to use the Chromatic Sphere, since I have no reason to "patch" my colors, and I can draw more cards off from a creature than the Sphere.  Priest of Gix falls in the "too expensive for turns 1-2" category.  

Now, I did see a nice little gem in your suggestions there Pi.  And that was the idea of Channel.  I think this could be a powerful card to help bump the deck over that virtual cliff it faces of mana access.

Thanks for the idea.  Would love to hear other people put in their 2 cents.  I am really working hard with this deck to see how it will work out.  It is still in the early workings, but is showing a great deal of potential.  I have found that it can usually wade through some of the worst disruption people can throw at it, but it dies far too easily to cards that are format defining right now (Trinisphere, Sphere of Resistence, Chalice for 0, Null Rod).  Although these cards utterly destroy this deck, they do not show up as commonly as people would expect.  I have run into a few decks running these cards, but, thankfully, the majority are busy trying to prepare for other decks and don't see this deck coming from right field like a freight train of pain.

[bebe]

Have you tried Tangleroot in your build of Skulclamp Kobolds? It would seem as good as any mana generator for the kill allowing you to use your Skullclamp many times over.

[jsg7440]

My testing has shown that Tangleroot is bad since it produces Green, meanwhile, the life loss is just minor to Carnival, and it produces Black.

[pi]

Tangleroot doesn't require black mana to cast, which means you can get your combo going without having black mana to begin with, you can always draw into some black source when you get going. Because of this I lean towards the tangleroot, but not losing life is also nice of course.

pi

[DrLambda]

This is the current version i'm running.

//NAME: Koboldpotence V3.1
// Creatures (22)
        4 Crimson Kobolds
        4 Kobolds of Kher Keep
        4 Crookshank Kobolds
        2 Xantid Swarm
        2 Initiates of the Ebon Hand
        4 Myr Moonvessel
        4 Elvish Spirit Guide
// Spells (34)
        4 Dark Ritual
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mana Vault
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Chrome Mox
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mana Crypt
        1 Sol Ring
        4 Carnival of Souls
        1 Demonic Consultation
        2 Reaping the Graves
        1 Yawgmoth's Will
        1 Vampiric Tutor
        1 Demonic Tutor
        3 Tendrils of Agony
        1 Spoils of the Vault
        4 Skullclamp
// Lands (4)
        4 Bayou

It goes off turn 3 quite consistent if you Mulligan into Skullclamp.

[Rico Suave]

If youre running an ESG build, you can also SB Oxidize against anything MUD. Theres not much more you can do.

Eh, no you can't.  Chalice's best number here is 1 and not 0, although both are strong plays.  I would recommend something that doesn't sit on either of those numbers.

[Tim the Enchanter]

Second sunrise would be pretty crazy...

[Astro]

Second Sunrise would be tight, however double WW in the casting cost is hard to come buy.  

Also, Jsg said it right.  While it's true Tangle Root only costs colorless to cast, it does still cost 1 more mana, and then the fact that it only produces green.  It's debatable, but I'd go still go with Carnival of Souls.

[XellossMetallium]

my black/blue deck has a prime focus on underworld dreams that could shut a draw card deck down pretty quick  

Xelloss Metallium

[Jacob Orlove]

What about running a more artifact-focused build with tangleroot and Mishra's Workshop? Workshop also lets you cast Skullclamp and the Moonvessels. You could get black with chromatic sphere+dark ritual.

[DrLambda]

If youre running an ESG build, you can also SB Oxidize against anything MUD. Theres not much more you can do.

Eh, no you can't.  Chalice's best number here is 1 and not 0, although both are strong plays.  I would recommend something that doesn't sit on either of those numbers.

Chalice for 1 slows you down, Chalice for 0 completely shuts you down. You can still play Naturalize off the ESG, so Chalice should be something that we can handle.
Leaves us with Trinisphere and Spheres to fight against. I somehow suddenly really want to use something like Artifact Blast in this deck, simply because it stops the threats before the removal becomes expensive.

[Rico Suave]

If youre running an ESG build, you can also SB Oxidize against anything MUD. Theres not much more you can do.

Eh, no you can't.  Chalice's best number here is 1 and not 0, although both are strong plays.  I would recommend something that doesn't sit on either of those numbers.

Chalice for 1 slows you down, Chalice for 0 completely shuts you down. You can still play Naturalize off the ESG, so Chalice should be something that we can handle.

Naturalize would be much better, as I suggested in the quote.

Anyway, Chalice for 1 does in fact shut you down.  Skullclamp is 1.  Oxidize is also 1, so I'd rather shut down the opponent's engine and their removal as opposed to just their engine.

[pi]

How about tinder wall? It's even better then a free creature in that you get more mana out of it then you put in (even though red mana is useless, it will do whenever you need colorless).

Just a thought.

pi