King's Decree

[walkingdude]

King’s Decree
W
Enchantment
If a spell has a target other than King’s Decree counter it.
“In the hearts and minds of the people, let none be considered before the King.”
– First edict of Leopold the Mad  

King’s Herald
WW
Creature - Solder
If a spell with a target other than King’s Herald would resolve counter it instead.
2/2
“In the hearts and minds of the people, let none be considered before the King.”
– First edict of Leopold the Mad


Why its powerful: It shuts down burn, counters, non targeted creature removal, certain draw spells, and certain combo win conditions.

Why its not too powerful:
This does nothing to stop permanents. That means any ww deck based on this will probably get smacked around by TnT, madness, big O, stax, and that old Fires of yavimaya deck that kid borrowed from someone.

It doesn’t stop control. The decks that have enchantment removal use tutors and wishes to find it. This card stops neither of those. It certainly puts a speed bump out and forces control to deal with it, but it does nothing to stop them dealing with it.

Doesn’t stop tog. In addition to not stopping the big man it also does nothing against AK, which is non targeting.

Doesn’t stop combo: The reanimates in dragon come into play as global enchantments and so are not targeting. Against storm based combo it stops the kill, but doesn’t stop draw sevens or artifact mana so it’s a speed bump but not debilitating.

Possible objections

Wouldn’t people just throw this in combo and run rampant: Possibly, but they can use xantid to get a similar effect anyway so its not that bad. Also, it is worth noting that this places a lot of constraints on combo, can’t use targeted search spells to find its combo pieces, can’t use targeted kill spells, can’t use targeted discard to protect itself from disruption like chalice, have to play white…

Doesn’t this hose burn: WW should beat burn anyway so it’s not a problem.

When you would print this:
I think this is a printable card, and could see tournament play without destroying the metagame or causing too much trouble. That said, if I were Wotc the way I would handle this card would be by holding it back and printing it in an expansion that allready had lots of good enchantments. That way decks would already be running enchantment removal and people wouldn’t be caught with their pants down if this saw play.

[Jacob Orlove]

The problem with this card is that while it doesn't hose permanents, it shuts down almost anything else. The rest of your deck should be able to handle permanents (especially if you;re playing WW, with protection from color effects and such), but stopping burn, removal, and counters for W is just too strong.

[walkingdude]

I worried about that myself and in fact my first draft of the spell was costed at 1ww. As I mulled it over in my head though I kept lowering the cost.

The card is worthless against combo with cmc higher than 2 and its even questionable at 2 since a lot of combo is very fast.

It has very powerful unsynergy with StP.

If you play this turn one against control you have no one drop, so they can tutor or play a minor spell like brainstorm (which doesn’t target) on their first turn with no pressure. On your 2nd turn you play a dude and they can’t stop you. Their second turn they probably play another minor spell or wish if they had a mox. Your third turn you get another dude in and swing. Their third turn they either
1. blow this up if they tutored/wished for enchantment removal or
2. blow your team up with balance which doesn’t target.
Either way the ww deck has certainly gained a tempo advantage, but its not insurmountable by any means.

The truly surprising thing that this card made me realize was that very few of the environment's key spells actually target.

All that was what persuaded me to lower the cost initially. I could be convinced to raise it back up to 1w or ww, but I’m not sure that’s needed.

[Matt]

You honestly cannot judge a card's power by Type One standards. Two mana is NOT too slow in any format except T1, for instance. This would be absolutely hideous in any other format.

[walkingdude]

Matt, I admit most/all of the examples I used as to why this would be ok came from type one, but I think it would be ok in type 2 as well.

Checking brainburst’s premium type 2 gauntlet I see that the main deck cards this takes out are

Slide
4 spark spray (and it still cycles so its not even really out)

Goblin Bidding (both with and without clamp)
Nothing

Clamp ww
Nothing

Agro Disruption Zombies
4 blackmail
4 consume spirit
4 dark banishing
2 persecute

UW control kai’s build
3 mana leak
2 stifle

Affinity (kiblers build)
4 mana leak
2 override

Mono red LD
3 demolish
3 detonate
4 electro static bolt
4 molten rain
4 stone rain

The only things in type 2 that this card (as set now without raising the casting cost) really hoses are Zombies and red LD both of which are fringe decks anyway. And zombies are hosed less than they seem because kibler’s newest build cuts the consume spirits. Most of the main decks that actually see major play are relatively unharmed by this card. I think the impression that this would radically throw everything out of whack is more of a gut reaction than a metagame analysis. I know this is manageable in type 1. Given the gauntlet I see on brain burst this should be ok in type 2. It is possible that this would cause tons of trouble in extended, and I must admit I don’t know the extended metagame very well.

If anyone can think of any specific problems this would cause in extended I would like to know so that I can either reword or increase the cards cost to avoid them.

Lastly: Just so I can get a sense of where everyone is at, what mana cost would you guys be comfortable with this effect?

[Jebus]

I'd recommend you update the wording to something sort of like the new Flagbearer text.

This text doesn't really work as far as I see it.

[Ephraim]

No, I get the feeling the spell does exactly what he wants it to do. Random burn spell? Doesn't target King's Decree, counter it. He doesn't care that it can't target King's Decree. That seems to be the point.

[Jebus]

No, I get the feeling the spell does exactly what he wants it to do. Random burn spell? Doesn't target King's Decree, counter it. He doesn't care that it can't target King's Decree. That seems to be the point.

My point is, it needs to be a triggered ability.

[Matt]

On that note, it should be worded "Whenever a spell is cast that targets a permanent other than King's Decree, counter it."

The current Standard is low on targeted effects but in general T2 is full of them. Onslaught block (with its focus on creatures) is what's causing this anomaly.

Think about it: this stops counters, burn, discard, spot removal, and sometimes draw spells. Usually, that's like 1/4 to a 1/3 of an entire format's spells! Moreover, it's an enchantment, which is basically the hardest kind of permanent to remove. This effect would be absolutely fine on a one-mana creature, but as an enchantment, it's relatively invulnerable. Black, blue, and red would be forced to splash white or green just to remove this one card - that's too strong.

As far as the costing cost I'm looking for, probably 2W. Actually, UW would work too, because being gold is worth about a one-mana reduction (and this seems closer to the white/blue "civilization" pair than the white/green "goodness" pair).

[Jebus]

Matt, you used Permanent in your suggestion when I don't think that the original was meant to be that way.

However, that would decrease its power level and would no longer hose counters.

[Matt]

"Whenever a spell is cast that targets a card other than King's Decree, counter it."

There.

[Jebus]

"Whenever a spell is cast that targets a card other than King's Decree, counter it."

There.

What about a player?

How about:

"Whenever a spell is put on the stack, if that spell does not target ~this~, counter that spell."

This also hoses Storm.

[Matt]

1. D'oh.
2. Also, I hate it when cards mention the stack. It's just ugly. I also don't like referring to the main phase, largely because you have to call it by name ("phase").

"Whenever a spell is played, if that spell targets a card or player other than King's Decree, counter that spell." Except this leaves out tokens. Fuck this card, it's impossible to word nicely.  

[walkingdude]

Ok, so it seems like part of the objection is that this in an enchantment, which is really hard to remove. I want to keep the cost fairly low so it can actually help against combo so I think changing it to a creature may be the way to go.
The other problem was the wording needing to be cleaned up. Since their didn’t seem to be an easy way to make it work as a triggered ability I set it up as a replacement ability which seems fairly short and clear and doesn’t make reference to the stack (though I was forced to use resolve).

King’s Herald
WW
Creature - Solder
If a spell with a target other than King’s Herald would resolve counter it instead.
2/2
“In the hearts and minds of the people, let none be considered before the King.”
– First edict of Leopold the Mad

That pretty much stops the cards effects on burn and targeted removal which makes it far weaker than the original design, but probably also makes it ok for type 2 and extended.

It still works as a speed bump for several combos, which is the intent.
It still works as a way to stop counter power.

One might object now and say that this is better than xantid swarm.
1. When the goal of a card is solely to come down before the counter wall is up the 2nd mana makes a world of difference, so I’m not sure its really better.
2. White is the color of the best tournament quality weenies, the rule making ability, the flag bearer ability. Since this is in color on 3 separate levels it’s not wrong for this to be better than a green card that flys and casts abeyance.

[Matt]

It's absolutely fine now, except for the wording, which is still kind of wonky. The power level is fine though. This is a little stronger than True Believer, which is fine.

I'll keep working on the wording. The problem with the wording is that we're getting hung up on having it counter spells. I think I have a solution to this:

What if it said "Players can't play spells that have targets that aren't King's Herald"? That seems even more rule-making than just countering things (which is traditionally blue). It has a very similar effect, except for a few rare instances:

1. If you control a Herald and Mindslave someone, you can't throw their targeted spells down the drain.
2. My wording would stop Urza's Rage, which yours wouldn't.

[Jebus]

It's absolutely fine now, except for the wording, which is still kind of wonky. The power level is fine though. This is a little stronger than True Believer, which is fine.

I'll keep working on the wording. The problem with the wording is that we're getting hung up on having it counter spells. I think I have a solution to this:

What if it said "Players can't play spells that have targets that aren't King's Herald"? That seems even more rule-making than just countering things (which is traditionally blue). It has a very similar effect, except for a few rare instances:

1. If you control a Herald and Mindslave someone, you can't throw their targeted spells down the drain.
2. My wording would stop Urza's Rage, which yours wouldn't.

Your wording seems clunky at best though.  Do you think there is a more elegant way of doing this?

I'd have to stick with the replacement effect that counters the spell.

[Matt]

Explain how it's clunky. It's a simple, natural-language sentence: no need for Magic jargon.

[Jebus]

Explain how it's clunky. It's a simple, natural-language sentence: no need for Magic jargon.

Clunky wasn't the best word there.

I just think it's a bit much for a "Players can't..." phrase to handle.  I have the feeling it opens the door for too many misunderstandings.  

Personally, I try to shy away from such effects.  I'd rather get the same functionality a different way rather than using a blanket rule changing effect.

I like the replacement effect better.  I suppose it's just a personal thing.

[Matt]

Usually, natural-language sentences are better understood than stuff like Stifle, where you have to know the difference between various Magic words.

[Jebus]

Usually, natural-language sentences are better understood than stuff like Stifle, where you have to know the difference between various Magic words.

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you there, as my experience has shown just the opposite.

[walkingdude]

I was viewing my old posts and found this guy. I think I posted him before midterms a while back and then was forced offline by exams and forgot about him. I think he’s a pretty good card and it strikes me that the wording probably won’t get much better than it is now, so if no one objects I’m going to start a 24 hour clock.

[Matt]

Closed and added.[/color]