[Card Dicussion] Garveyard hate at its best.

[Mixing Mike]

I was talking to Ben (Kowal) on AIM tonight, and he said.....

Duress effects don't exist in the matchups you need grave hate.  Grave hate is for hating on Squee, and in extremely rare circumstances, Anger, Wonder and Roar of the Wurm.

It got me thinking, just really how good is Coffin Purge compared to Ebony Charm in terms of graveyard hate alone.  Here's how I see it:

Coffin Purge is very effective vs. anthing that runs Duress.  To my knowledge most Dragon players don't even run that anymore (feel free to correct me if I'm mistaken), going for Xantids and FoW to protect the combo.  The BB investment after a Cunning Wish in Game 1 is a bit to clunky to take out a bunch of Squees, though Game 2 isn't nearly a rough.  Not to mention Coffin Purge does little to nothing vs. a good player with AK's.  It's a neat toy to play around with a Mindslaver/Welder loop, as well.  Purge is great vs. Rector and Dragon with Duress, but who honestly plays Rector that you actually need to hate?  Not that I think about it, I usually don't find Purge removing the right cards in the matchups I need the graveyard hate for.

Ebony Charm easily takes out at least 2 Squees out of nowhere, sometimes 3, making Bazaar much more managable, and helping to enforce the full effect of the disadvantage it should acutally have.  Weaking Bazaars in this manner makes Dragon play a bit more fairly vs. control decks, and really makes other graveyard reliant decks (Mask, Hulk, GAT, Big O, Reanimator, etc...) really lose some of their 'umph'.  It also takes out one of Big O's engines, which I hear is always a good thing.

Well, anyways, I'd love to hear any opinions on the issue that anyone has.

[jpmeyer]

I think it's more of an issue between Coffin Purge and Tormod's Crypt

[Kowal]

I disagree, JP.

Tormod's Crypt sure as hell isn't a wish target unless you're playing DeathLong or Golden Wish Parfait or something along those lines.  Many decks need a good wish target to hate the graveyard with, such as Keeper or Hulk.

The argument is whether the additional card in the graveyard and the reduced total mana cost outweighs Purge's pros, such as:

Removes itself for further wishing
Is Duress-proof
Better at fizzling welds

In my opinion, it does.  But you have the additional use with the mini-lifegain spell, as a little extra love if you need it.  

I guess in conclusion I'd chalk it up to personal playstyle, but I do feel that Ebony Charm is the correct card to be using now.

[WhiteMage05]

I think Ebony Charm is better. If you're using these cards as sideboard tech than you obviously have a Cunning Wish in your deck, and many players play two, even 3. Therefore:

Coffin Purge:
Advantage:
Play it, then flash it back. That's two cards. If you mize a lot than you can Wish for it again, and flash it back again getting 4 total cards.
Disadvantage:
By the time you pull that second wish, it may be too late. Plus, then you've used up both your wishes and can't go for something else like an STP or Berserk or something else techy. Also, doing all that wishing and flashing back is almost too many heavy.

Ebony Charm:
Advantage:
This card is an immediate answer that gets rid of three cards right away. You only have to use one Cunning Wish and therefore you've surpassed Purge already on wish #1
Disadvantage:
If you do mize a lot and get that Wish #2 than you remove one less card.

However, consider this too. Why would someone need to remove four cards out of somebody's graveyard?
Targets (off the top of my head):
AK
Squee
Dragon
Laquatos
In the case you're playing agianst dragon then yes, removing 4 card is "wickit" good. But in the other cases. Bazaar will still have a hard time functioning with 1 squee. And as for AK, removing three is the best you can ever do. I mean, why remove the fourth?  

If you've got a third Cunning Wish than play both so that you have many an option  

So that's my opinion but my favorite thing ever is getting proved wrong so do it up!

[Harry Lime]

I've always used Ebony Charm in 'Tog. There have even been one or two times when I've used it for the fear-effect.

[tehmajickguy]

I feel that the major advantage of playing Purge over Charm is most definitely the flashback. Not only is it Duress-proof, but if you cast it and your opponent goes to counter it, they're only really countering half of it.  The fact that if you really need to cast Purge on something in your opponents yard probably means that they really need to counter that Purge. Its much more difficult for them to fight through multiple Purges than it is to simply fight the one Charm.

[Kowal]

That point is fairly irrelevent.  If the graveyard hate is necessary and they're going to counter something, you aren't going to resolve the wish.  ESPECIALLY if they play with Mana Drain.

[Lockdown]

I discussed this topic before here looking at different forms of graveyard hate.  Admittedly, I forgot to include Ebony Charm, but I pretty much listed the pros and cons of each.  Read it if you feel like it.

Withered Wretch:
(Pros)  - 2/2 Creature
           - Only removes the cards you choose to remove

(Cons) - Gets hit by creature removal
           - Requires mana to use its ability
           - BB mana cost *can* be hard to come by

Planar Void:
(Pros)  - Enchantment, (less enchantment removal in current metagame)
           - Stops Intuiton/AK, Bazaar/Squee, Yawgmoth's Will
           - Single B casting cost

(Cons) - Doesn't damage your opponent
           - Stops YOU from using Intuiton/AK, Bazaar/Squee, Yawgmoth's Will
           - Doesn't stop Academy Rector, Necromancy/Gorger


Tormod's Crypt:
(Pros)  - Only hits who you choose it to hit
           - 0 casting cost makes it playable in any deck

(Cons) - One use only
           - You have to play it first and then it's vulnerable to artifact hate


Coffin Purge:
(Pros)  - Harder to disrupt
           - Single B casting cost

(Cons) - Each card can only remove 2 cards from the graveyard at best

For these reasons, I prefer Planar Void, with Tormod's Crypt as a close second.  Planar Void's inability to deal with the combos mentioned is easily rectified in a u/b/w deck.  Two cards come into mind off hand, Stifle and Swords to Plowshares.  Either card will single handedly stop either combo mentioned and since each card only costs 1 mana, they should be almost automatic inclusions.  Other merits for StP are that it's instant speed RFG, which helps against reanimator, and will take out other pesky creatures such as Goblin Welder or Psychatog in a pinch.  Merits for Stifle include the ability to stop strip lands and fetchlands, effectively protecting your manabase and hurting your opponents.

[Lord of the Goats]

it really depends on the deck. in hulk i'd much rather have purge because of intuition. and id generally rather have krosan rec than either because it does get rid of squees,  ak's, and laquatus. plus it recurs your own shit like yawg's will and helps you avoid grave hate.

[Yare]

If you have the SB slots, you could run both Ebony Charm and Coffin Purge, giving you more flexibility. Just an idea.

[Hi-Val]

Why is Duress even an issue? If you are grabbing graveyard hate, it is probably with Cunning Wish. Your opponent will never get the chance to Duress it out of your hand if you wish it in. If you're sideboarding stuff in, then it is better to have Purge because it goes again and is safe against discard. But if you're wishing, the target should be the card that works better. Ebony Charm works better. It takes out more for less.

[Kowal]

Duress is an issue when Duress is on the stack and you're holding Cunning Wish.  Whether you wish or not, the card in that slot won't be in your hand for a whole lot longer.

[Hi-Val]

If Duress is on the stack and you're Wishing, it still doesn't make a huge difference unless you have no black mana availible. In that case, they'd hit a Purge and you could nail 1 card. Why is packing purge for this "never happens in real games" event when Charm works better against a large portion of the field?

Besides, if we're going with situations that almost never come up, Charm takes care of Worship decks as well, so it still ends up a better Wish target.

[TheFram]

Ebony Charm is not really a consideration mainly because of Dragon, Squee, Rector, and Welder. Ebony Charm hits only 1 time. Against Dragon, Rector, Squee/Anger decks, etc. this is unacceptable since the opponent will find another and you will be without at answer. The choice is between Crypt (awesome w/ welder) and Purge (Anti-Duress measure, as well as hitting in 2 separate occurances.)

-TheFram

[Kowal]

The duress situation happened a lot with Rector at its peak, which is why Coffin Purge became so popular.  That, and people worldwide netdecked Carl's Hulk list with three sideboard coffin purges immediately after GenCon.

Ebony Charm is in fact better in many circumstances.  Adam (ill_dawg) has been noted to have said that you only turn bazaar sideways when you need to or have at least two cards you want to get rid of.  With the high content of stuff better off in the graveyard in Dragon, that usually means they'll drop three major threats.  Ebony Charm's speed is necessary for these drops.  As for Rector, it doesn't exist anymore.  The only time I've seen a rector in action since GenCon was the most recent Hadley in which hulk3rules confused the hell out of the metagame by packing it.

I already mentioned welder, but generally in a deck where you'd be using ebony charm or coffin purge, why in the holy mother of fuck are you not wishing for removal for the damn welder?

[Mixing Mike]

Ebony Charm is not really a consideration mainly because of Dragon, Squee, Rector, and Welder. Ebony Charm hits only 1 time. Against Dragon, Rector, Squee/Anger decks, etc. this is unacceptable since the opponent will find another and you will be without at answer. The choice is between Crypt (awesome w/ welder) and Purge (Anti-Duress measure, as well as hitting in 2 separate occurances.)

-TheFram

Crypts are just as debatable.  They too only hit one time as you say, and aren't even Wishable, can be removed, etc....but that's not stopping people from playing them.  Who still plays Rector, honestly?  It's common knowledge that TPS and NeoAcademy are MUCH better metagame options DUE to all the graveyard hate intended for decks like Oshawa, Tog.dec,  Prison, and Dragon.  It's like trying to play ReapLace today, you find hate that wansn't meant for you and the next thing you know, you're  bending over to it.

There's no need to worry about Rector to just about any extent at all right now.  Bazaar is the major problem.  Looking at Dragons recent tournament reports shows that it's not as much of a threat anymore, and most people would rather play Oshawa Stompy anyways, that ONLY has the Squees to worry about for GY hate.  I'll agree with Ben when he said "Removing Squee is much more important than removing a Dragon right now".  Charm also takes out AK's and Deep Anals.

BTW:  You can't forget that it' you're playing a Psychatog-based deck, you can always remove Charms away to Wish for them again if you really need to use it again.  I think people are forgetting that when they say something along the lines of 'Charm can only be used once'.


[EDIT]: Added in a quote that I wanted to respond to after I responded.