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Miaou
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« on: February 24, 2004, 12:02:25 am » |
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I've been testing Control-slavery for a bit now, and not finding a thread about the non-workshop build, found it would be an interesting discussion. Here is the deck: Mana (26) 4 Flooded Strand 4 Volcanic Island 2 Underground Sea 6 Island 1 Library of Alexandria 1 Mana Crypt 1 Mox Jet 1 Mox Pearl 1 Mox Ruby 1 Mox Sapphire 1 Black Lotus 1 Sol Ring 1 Mana Vault 1 Grim Monolith Kill (8) 4 Goblin Welder 1 Pentavus 1 Platinum Angel 2 Mindslaver Draw/Search (11) 1 Ancestral Recall 3 Brainstorm 4 Thirst for Knowledge 1 Memory Jar 1 Demonic Tutor 1 Tinker Counters (8) 4 Mana Drain 4 Force of Will Utility (7) 1 Time Walk 2 Fire/Ice 2 Cunning Wish 1 Burning Wish 1 Panotopic Mirror Sideboard 3 Tormod's Crypt 2 Blood Moon 3 Red Elemental Blast 2 Rack and Ruin 1 Fire/Ice 1 Stifle 1 Yawgmoth's Will 1 Deep Analysis 1 Primitive Justice The deck I started with was the one posted by The Atog Lord in some thread I don't remember :/ One thing that most probably stands out the most is the use of both Cunning Wish and Burning Wish. Normaly, there would be the Yawgmoth's Will in its place. However, early game, drawing Yawgmoth's Will isn't very spectacular. I'd much have another spell in its place. Sure it can be placed back into the deck via Brainstorm but you don't always have a way to shuffle your library afterwards. By using the wish, I therefore have less dead draws. Additionaly, late game when you do want to use the will, the extra two mana won't be a problem. Since I wanted more flexibility, the other Burning Wish targets I wanted were draw and removal. For the drawing aspcet, I opted for Deep Analysis. However I also considered Wheel of Fortune, which is much more powerful, but a bit risky in a control match, where it can just get countered. As for the removal, I'm still a bit hesitant using Primitive Justice. I want to be able do deal with artifacts, but creatures would be great too! Is there a card that I overlooked that does both with a reasonable casting cost? The rest of the main deck I'm happy with, with the exception of one slot currently held by the Panotopic Mirror. It was just included since there are quite a few powerful spells just waiting to be imprinted, and mostly infinite turns is just so much fun! However if I don't draw it I never really tutor or it...Which makes me think that maybe the final Brainstorm or a third Fire/Ice could be used instead (depending on amount of aggro/welders/swarms obviously). I was thinking about testing Mind's Eye but haven't got the chance to yet...Did anybody take the time to do so? Here are a few matchups I can comment on: Workshop prison: This really depends on their starting hand, because once you have acces to two blue, Mana Drain will be huge, allowing you to easily cast a Mindslaver. Also the MD Fire/Ice really helps out VS welders and so do the SB Rack and Ruin. Dragon: Game one can be hard with almost no answers save Mindslaver which tends to be too slow...This is the main reason for the SB Stifle which can swing the game in your favor. After SB the crypts usualy slow them down enough to win. The Blood Moons are obviously huge too! Fish/Gay-red: If they get out a Standstill it can be very annoying but since they have few counters you can usualy get your drawing going. Once Mindslaver hits be careful: Stifle is so good! Even Null Rod hurts, but to swing the game in your favor you have Fire/Ice which is usualy at least two-for-one (sometimes more if curiosity is out), and Platinum Angel which they have no answer to. Oshawa Stompy: This is tough. They come out fast and with big creatures. Fire/Ice just sucks so you can't count on that. Even with Mindslaver out, you're not guarenteed anything! Your best bet is to probably go with the angel and counter their artifact removal. This match-up needs improving (although luckily for me I dont see much of it localy). Hulk: This isn't be too bad as one activation of Mindslaver is virtualy game. And since they can't deal with welders (aside from c.wish), it doesn't really matter if they counter the slaver. However sometimes, they are just too broken. Oh well, can't win all of them! Some matchs that I need to test include landstill (this should be tough, with F/I, disk, standstill,...), keeper, Tendril's combo (although absent localy), and suicide builds. So what do you guys think 
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runT1ME
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« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2004, 04:03:23 am » |
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I play a version similar, (but without full power. I just include 5, because thats what most tournies allow). So far my thoughts:
I'm loving intuition. It auto-dumps the mindslavers into the graveyard. (which is better then drawing one on turn 2-4 without a thirst). I also am going to start testing chain of vapor. Its awsome against aggro, but some other decks i'm testing against, it doesn't do too much, other then return a mox and maybe get a land saced). Now, perhaps because i'm not playing with all the jewelry, I can sometimes "stall" a mindslaver chain if I run out of artifacts, and can't get the opponent to commit suicide. I've actually had to resort to welder beatdown before! Anyways, great discussion, lets keep it going.
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Wollblad
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« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2004, 04:44:26 am » |
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First. Why no Mox Emerald when you use almost every other mana artefact? Then there are some strange choices in your deck. I know it is the latest tech not to run Mystical Tutor, but in your deck it also finds Tinker which might be crucial. You can for example cut Panoptic Mirror that seems good in the first place but just turns out to be too slow and too situational. I also doubt you need Library of Alexandria. The deck just don't have that good card economy, not counted in hand size. There is actually possible to fit in two Intuition and Accumulated Knowladge. It seems to work fine since Intuition is a wonderful way of fetching Mindslaver & CO as well. Then you'll have to cut things like Memory Jar and Fire/Ice. I don't know which version that is the better one, with or without Accu draw engine.
Last, the Burning Wish resoning does not hold in practice, at least not in my experience. In ordinary Keeper it might replace Balance (kind of controversial), but never Yawgmoth's Will. Rather, if you like Burning Wish, maindeck it along with Will. Then you don't have to be afraid of playing a 'small' Will in the beginning of the match. But probably I would go for Will and no Burning Wish.
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Miaou
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« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2004, 11:32:36 am » |
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@runT1ME: To be honest I don't really think Intuition has its place in this deck. The reason being: what point is there to just dump the slaver and let it set there until you topdeck your welder? I'd rather be digging using Thirst for Knowledge AND dumping the artifacts I draw in the process. Chain of Vapor does have its merits against non-control decks since you can basicaly return all their permanents and sac all their lands. Maybe this is the solution I was looking for against big aggro decks! But this should probably be a wish target since as you mentioned can be dead in some match-ups. As for stalling yeah it can happen, but not that often. Welder beatdown does happen, but who cares as long as you win  Pentavus is great for that reason: you can beat down and lock them down. @Wollblad: Well the lack of Mox Emerald is because of Mana Crypt. In this deck the crypt is strickly better. The draw back isn't really an issue as you can Tinker or weld it away. Also I agree with you about the Mystical Tutor: it fetches Tinker which is always good to have. However since I'm using black, I'd much rather have the DT in its place. If I were to cut black then I probably would be including it. As I said the mirror is just being tested as of now and you're right: it kinda sucks! The LOA is in there simply because it's a huge weapon against control (which I see alot of in Montreal). It's true you might have to hold on to a few moxen to use it, but I feel that it's worth it. Plus even if I were to cut it, what could I add instead? another basic Island? 6 + 4 fetches is more than enough. As for the Intuition suggestion as I've said above I would much rather be doing the drawing and dumping using one card. Plus, with the addition of AKs you would need to find alot of room which honestly isn't there. F/I and Memory Jar are just huge and I couldn't cut them. As for the Burning Wish issue as I said the will just isn't desiarble in the first turns and I'm always wishing it were something else. Well now it can be  And later the extra casting cost really isn't a problem.
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The Atog Lord
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« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2004, 03:06:50 pm » |
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Hello. I just posted a report in the Tournament Forum, so feel free to check that out. Here is my current list:
// Creatures 1 Platinum Angel 1 Pentavus 4 Goblin Welder // Counter 4 Mana Drain 4 Force of Will // Drawing 4 Thirst for Knowledge 3 Brainstorm 1 Ancestral Recall 1 Memory Jar 3 Fire/Ice // Other 2 Mindslaver 1 Tinker 1 Time Walk 2 Cunning Wish // Black 1 Yawgmoth's Will 1 Demonic Tutor // Mana 1 Mana Crypt 1 Mana Vault 1 Mox Sapphire 1 Mox Emerald 1 Mox Ruby 1 Mox Pearl 1 Mox Jet 1 Sol Ring 1 Black Lotus // Land 1 Library of Alexandria 2 Underground Sea 4 Flooded Strand 4 Volcanic Island 6 Island // Sideboard SB: 1 Shattering Pulse SB: 2 Lightning Bolt SB: 1 Fire/Ice SB: 1 Fact or Fiction SB: 2 Blood Moon SB: 3 Rack and Ruin SB: 1 Hibernation SB: 4 Red Elemental Blast
Now, a few comments on your build, Miaou. I'm a huge fan of Yawgmoth. I believe that not maindecking his Will is a mistake. After the fourth turn, it is game-ending. I would really reconsider it. With the Will maindeck, the Burning Wish can go, too.
Emerald is better than Grim. I tried Grim for a while, but, for reasons I explain in the report, I cut it. As for the Pan-Optic mirror, I tested it and I really thought it would be good. I just found that it wasn't doing enough to justify its inclusion in the deck. Though if your experience is different, please let me know.
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Hi-Val
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« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2004, 03:06:58 pm » |
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Chain of Vapor will just win you games. Even if you are playing against control, you can still bounce up their acceleration. It is dynamite, and should be the first thing you do when you slave outside of grabbing an "I lose" card from their deck if they have one.
Has anyone thought of using other Chains with Mindslaver? Maybe we are getting into T2 territory here, I don't know. There are plenty of potent spells to cast on your opponent when you control their actions! Heck, Trade Secrets would even do it!
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Team Meandeck: VOTE RON PAUL KILL YOUR PARENTS MAKE GOLD ILLEGAL Doug was really attractive to me.
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Tim the Enchanter
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« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2004, 06:36:01 pm » |
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Chain of Vapor can be pretty mean...but I wouldn't throw in anything else - this is control not combo. The Chain may be best kept SB for wishing or something.
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Miaou
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« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2004, 08:16:41 pm » |
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@The Atog Lord: You are right about the Emerald. I could only cast the monolith turn three generaly (either with 3 lands + mox to keep mana drain open, or by draining some spell). I will most definatly replace them. As for the Panoptic Mirror you are right: it doesn't belong. I just thought it would be awsome...not so.
@Others: You are right: Chain of Vapor is a great idea. Generaly when i "slave" an aggro opponent, there isn't much I can do to get rid off his critters. However the chain changes that. It seems however too conditional main, SB for sure though. I shall test and report back!
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The Atog Lord
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« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2004, 09:52:38 pm » |
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As for the Chain, against most decks, Slaving alone is often enough to win the game. It strikes me that it may be a win-more card when used that way. However, the deck may also need an answer to Humility and other such enchantments, so it might be worth trying. I was thinking of Echoing Truth myself, but Chain might work, too.
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The Academy: If I'm not dead, I have a Dragonlord Dromoka coming in 4 turns
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JuJu
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« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2004, 10:55:55 pm » |
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One thing I've been using in Workshop-Slaver is Future Sight, with the lotuses it becomes very easy to cast but can be dead early game sometimes because of lack of blue mana. However if you're playing control-slaver you have a) more time to get rolling cause of your counters and b) more blue mana to work with. I really think you should try out Future Sight as sometimes you can gain so much tempo it's like you played Time Walk.
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�We Seek The Ring...�
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Wollblad
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« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2004, 04:42:35 am » |
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@Miaou If I were to cut LoA I would replace it by an Underground Sea, which I actually would like to fit in anyhow. Would it be worth taking an Island out for another Sea or does that hurt too much under Blood Moon?
For sideboard, I don't think this deck needs 3 Rack and Ruin and a Shattering Pulse as in The Atog Lord's list. When I play against this deck with my Stax deck, Welders and Pentavus is often enough to ruin my day. Better use these places to deal with O. Stompy and Dragon which are matchups that really sucks for this deck, but isn't there anything more generally usable than Hibernation? Also, as allready pointed out by The Atog Lord, I would like to see something that deals with Humility which becomes increasingly popular. Chain of Vapor seems fine, but how often are you able to Wish for it at the same time as you manage to Slave your opponent. I would guess it happends once in a while, but more from accident than intention. So is perhaps Recoil an alternative? Also kind of fun under Mindslaver.
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Miaou
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« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2004, 10:18:13 am » |
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@JuJu: While I agree Future Sight is really powerful, I don't really like it in this deck for several reasons. First of all, there are already quite a few cards that cost 5+ mana in this deck which are already important (jar, slaver, angel, pentavus) so another one which is harder to cast (as the others can simply use drain mana) isn't too desireable. Second point is related to the first: when you have many big casting cost cards like these you are a lot more likely to stall using future sight. So I would stay away from it...
@Wollblad: I really don't understand why you want to cut the LOA! It's a great card that can just win games against control. Plus the fact that it is a non-basic doesn't even matter as you have enough basic Islands. As for a third Underground Sea, although I haven't tested (because I don't feel it is an important card to add) I don't think it would hurt to take out an Island for it.
As for the SB I agree with you: 4 artifact removal spells is alot! Since you also have F/I which takes care of his welders too. Against Dragon, game one is hard. All you have to combat them is (n my case) one wishable Stifle and the Platinum Angel (which can be welded into play when you are milled). However after SB, it gets alot better I've found. Tormod's Crypt allows you to slow them down enough to either slave them or cast a Blood Moon which just wins. The O.Stompy is alot thougher since even though you can slave them, if they have an army out, you can't deal with it. Your point about Chain of Vapor is a good one: for it to be useful you would have to set the play up with C. Wish AND Mindslaver. Tough when you are staring at a bunch of big green men. About the Recoil: are you talking MD or SB?
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Wollblad
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« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2004, 10:44:24 am » |
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Plus even if I were to cut it, what could I add instead?
@Wollblad: I really don't understand why you want to cut the LOA! It's a great card that can just win games against control. Plus the fact that it is a non-basic doesn't even matter as you have enough basic Islands. As for a third Underground Sea, although I haven't tested (because I don't feel it is an important card to add) I don't think it would hurt to take out an Island for it.
I do not persist on cutting the LoA, I was just aswering your question. I'm sorry if I was vague on that point. As you feel you get use of LoA then it should be cept where it is. Recoil was suggested as a sideboard tool just in case there is some single permanent the deck cannot handle. Since I guess it will often be Humility - played by control - you will need card economy in the removal which you have in Recoil but not in Chain of Vapor. Neiter of them will probably work against Oshawa Stompy. Could Duplicant perhaps be used in sideboard to deal with aggro decks?
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jazzykat
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« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2004, 11:35:40 am » |
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I was just looking at this build. I know what happens if you resolve slaver vs. tog but tog is packing a bomb vs you. Mainly in deed and psychomatog, possibly B2B, their duresses also seem rude. The way I see it, you have the same about the same amount of must stops as MUD mainly welders and your 4 win conditions (instead of smokestack) but you are better equipped to push them through. Just wondering on your match up results.
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The Priory RIP: Team Blood Moon
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Wollblad
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« Reply #14 on: February 26, 2004, 07:35:32 am » |
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A question about Blood Moon. This card is awsome against some decks for example Keeper and Dragon. But how do you sideboard when you bring in Blood Moon. It seems to conteract Mindslaver. The whole idea with Mindslaver is to abuse your opponents cards, but when you cannot play them out?
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zero
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« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2004, 05:15:43 pm » |
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Then you just go for the win anyway after you do what you can to his hand. Remember, he will probably have mox out that may be on color; let's say he's hoarding a yawg will or a balance. You make him cast it, the make him force it. Or you make him tutor up a cunning wish to rack and ruin his artifacts. A blood moon is not an auto win vs. keeper, they can still fight through it, and have plent of red to use against you. And don't forgot that damping matrix and isochron are colorless... I see at least 6 cards to board in vs. keeper (4 blasts and 2 blood moon), how did you s/b vs. control decks when you faced them, Atog Lord? Did you keep the wishes main to have access to FoF and RnR, or did those go out?
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Some folks are like Slinkies... They're not really good for anything But they still bring a smile to your face When you push them down a flight of stairs.
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The Atog Lord
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« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2004, 06:12:52 pm » |
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It’s great to see some good thinking going into this deck. In particular, I’m sure that there is room to improve the sideboard. I want to address a few points which have been raised here.
First, yes, the deck probably needs some way to deal with humility. I’m not sold on Chain, as I stated above. The fact that they can bounce your Welder with it makes Chain suspect, because you will often want to bounce their Humility just so you can use that very welder. As for Recoil, the deck runs only a pair of black sources, and Recoil costs three mana. While Echoing Truth is card disadvantage, it is easy to cast and flexible.
My experience has been that Library of Alexandria is incredible. Perhaps that is because I live in New England, which has a control-heavy metagame. Even so, I would not want to cut the Library. Having only two black sources has not been an issue at all so far; the fetchlands smooth the mana base quite a bit.
The matchup against Tog is very much in this deck’s favor. Using a Slaver almost always ends the game, since you can feed everything to their Tog. See my most recent tournament report for a relatively average match against tog.
As for sideboarding against Keeper, I bring in three REBs, two Moons, and Fact or Fiction. The one REB stays in the board for Wishing, and I leave the Wishes in to deal with Damping Matrix (which hurts the deck). I cut a few Brainstorms, Platinum Angel, and a Mana Vault. Then, I cut either Tinker or Memory Jar. I don’t have a hard-and-fast rule for how to sideboard with the deck, because each person’s build of any given deck tends to vary considerably. For example, against some Keeper builds, bringing in artifact removal makes sense. However, a general strategy is to cut the Jar, Angel, Vault, and a few cantrips against control.
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The Academy: If I'm not dead, I have a Dragonlord Dromoka coming in 4 turns
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runT1ME
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« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2004, 06:33:17 pm » |
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I've been playtesting my unpowered build a lot lately, and I've found that against aggro, its almost always better to tinker a pent or some other fat before you go for the mindslaver. Far too often i've mindslavered, and all I maybe do is a really expensive hymn to tourach. Maybe I bolt one creature, have them waste a removal card, etc. Then I have to either start sacking my artifacts in hope that they topdeck something that allows me suicide, or we just go back to where we were. Am I just not playing the deck right? Or is aggro and sligh type decks just too tough pre-sideboard?
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Dante
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« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2004, 06:40:08 pm » |
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A question about Blood Moon. This card is awsome against some decks for example Keeper and Dragon. But how do you sideboard when you bring in Blood Moon. It seems to conteract Mindslaver. The whole idea with Mindslaver is to abuse your opponents cards, but when you cannot play them out? If the bloodmoon has them in that much of a bind, then you just find Pentavus or other artifact creatures (or welders) and beat them down with those....don't bother trying to make them do anything to themself. Bill
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Team Laptop
I hate people. Yes, that includes you. I'm bringing sexy back
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Miaou
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« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2004, 07:39:49 pm » |
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@jazzykat: Tog is a good matchup...Mindslaver is at it's best here and brutaly ends the game leaving them with no hand and no graveyard. Yes Deed can be annoying taking out your welders but that's it. B2B doesn't do anything. You even run Blood Moon side!
@Wollblad: Dante summed it up really well: if you can't use the Mindslaver against your opponent, then he won't be doing anything either!
@The Atog Lord: You are right: chains isn't great at all. Most of the time I cast it i have a welder or some sort of useful permanent. So that won't do. I was excited about it since when you slave an aggro deck if you have a chains, you bounce everything back and sack all their lands. But that doesn't happen enough times for it to be useful. Capsize I find to be slow, so right now Echoing truth seems like the way to go. Still I'm not 100% convinced so I'll be looking out for other cards. Also I was wondering why you don't run a Stifle and some crypts...Do you not see any Dragon?
@runT1ME: I find you are right: some aggro decks are tough! The toughest would be O.Stompy IMO. I don't find sligh to be too tough as you have 2-3 F/I plus if you slave them, there is a good chance you will draw burn for their critters.
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The Atog Lord
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« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2004, 07:59:11 pm » |
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I have not seen any Dragon around here lately. Of course you already have the Blood Moons for that match. Also, this is where the Truth is stronger than Hoodwink: it can bounce the Dragon. If Dragon is popular in your area, try cutting a Rack and Ruin from the sideboard and adding some Crypts and/or maybe a BEB.
As for the aggro matches. Yes, these can be tough. You have some control tools, but not as many as a dedicated control deck like Keeper. And while you have some combo elements, you can't go off as quickly as a dedicated combo deck. So playing either game becomes difficult. The best options are either getting out a fast Angel, or trying to 'go off' as quickly as possible. The Angel plan is actually a very viable one, especially against Madness. Weld/Tinker her out, and just save your permission for protecting her. Against Stompy, there is no really good plan, especially after boarding.
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The Academy: If I'm not dead, I have a Dragonlord Dromoka coming in 4 turns
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ELD
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Eric Dupuis
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« Reply #21 on: February 29, 2004, 01:48:53 am » |
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I won the Mox Ruby today at the Gathering with an altered version of AtogLords build. Maindeck I ran 4xBrainstorm. I totally revamped the SB. I suspected the mirror and removed the Blood Moons from the sideboard for 2 Mox Monkeys. This was in an effort to fissle welders. I also had Wheel of Fortune in the board against Sui. Two Echoing truth and 1 Chain were very good wish targets. I cast Echoing Truth so many times today it was retarded. Jar, bounce your survival, EOT you discard it. Animate Dragon, how about bouncing in response. I need remove that null rod, EOT bounce it and I'll win the game. Also, if you set up with some card drawing in the first couple turns sometimes your board position isn't as developed. It's amazing to be able to trade some of that card advantage for a tempo boost. You end up ahead on cards, and board position. Good times, good times.
Anyways, I can't see running less than 4 brainstorm. The way I was playing the deck, I was always looking for a way to win, while not giving away anything from the control aspect. This means Brainstorm allows you to aggressively search for the cards you need to go off. Just my take on it. Against most decks that fire/ice is good against, a Platnum Angel or Pentavus is even better. It couldn't be that bad as I went undefeated on the day. I'm definately not conviced it's as good as Hulk yet. I'll really need to test it heads up and see what happens.
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urzas child
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« Reply #22 on: March 01, 2004, 08:44:37 am » |
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congrats on the win ELD, i have a few questions.
Im currently running 2 F/I and 1 MD Trike, did you run 2 or 3 F/I? I use 1 md trike because the main reason of 3 F/I in the NE meta is to take out small guys, and trike is re-usable.
What did you cut for the fourth brainstorm? I really want to find room for it, but i feel that I can't cut anything else
What is your new sideboard? Wheel of fortune seems a bit questionable in the sb, especailly because there isnt THAT much sui around here
once again congrats on the win
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winnie
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« Reply #23 on: March 01, 2004, 12:17:56 pm » |
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I'm testing this deck currently, and I think we can play duplicant MD in the place of Fire/Ice. Masticore can be an idea too.
what do you think ?
And I found Memory Jar amazing in this deck. It fetch all your tools in your graveyard and you can even kill with it.
winnie.
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blue cheese is GOOD !
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thecapn
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« Reply #24 on: March 01, 2004, 01:01:05 pm » |
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I was curious why Academy doesn't make the cut? Is it because you want a high level of consistency with Islands, especially basic Islands, for Mana Drain? I can see this being relevant because of the control focus, although Mana Drain is a perfect example of how much control decks love mana... Or is it something else I haven't though of? Peace, Jason
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Team MeanDeck: Kicking you in the head like a bad Tarpan.
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ELD
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Posts: 1462
Eric Dupuis
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« Reply #25 on: March 01, 2004, 01:47:50 pm » |
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I cut a fire/ice for brainstorm #4. That makes 2 main deck Fire/Ice. The aggro I faced was TnT or Madness based. Mongrel under slaver, with chain of vapor is game over. TnT, a welder under slaver is game as well. So against those deck's I'd rather try and combo out. Not just kill a small threat. Fire/Ice is probably at it's best against , Sligh, and Sui.
I didn't get to play against sui, but I'm sure they could do some really bad things to themselves. The wheel was a one card solution to the hand disruption. It would replace a wish in that match. It's proabably better than burn, but I didn't get to use it.
As for Academy, I haven't tested it yet. There are alot of times when I don't have any artifacts out, but it's probably worth the risk.
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Tim the Enchanter
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« Reply #26 on: March 01, 2004, 11:55:56 pm » |
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What would you say are the 5 most important cards to include in a 5 proxie build? Can I replace the drains with something (mana leaks, stifles, etc.) so I can proxy the moxes/lotus as I need them for speed + welding. Would I want to run some of the artifact lands despite the obvious risk?
Has anyone tried Lightning greaves in the SB for vs decks with lots of creature removal? It could help with the big O if you throw it on the angel.
What about a stifle SB to wish for vs the mirror?
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The Atog Lord
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« Reply #27 on: March 02, 2004, 07:42:32 am » |
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ELD, congrats on your win. Wheel is a very interesting Sideboard choice if you expect Sui. Sideboarding Mox Monkeys is also a good idea at this point. I wanted so say a few things about Fire/Ice. Against most decks that fire/ice is good against, a Platnum Angel or Pentavus is even better. Fire/Ice is probably at it's best against , Sligh, and Sui. I'm testing this deck currently, and I think we can play duplicant MD in the place of Fire/Ice. Masticore can be an idea too. To some degree, Fire/Ice is in the deck to handle aggro. Icing a Wurm is sometimes a great way to buy a turn, and Firing a Negator is great. Yet, Fire/Ice isn't in the deck simply to deal with aggro decks. Fire handles some of the largest threats which control and combo decks can present. It hits Xantid Swarm, a serious threat from combo decks. Moreover, Fire handles Mox Monkey and Goblin Welder, either of which, if left alive, may become a serious issue for this deck. Against other Welder decks, short of a resolved Slaver, the presence of a Welder often determines the winner. And of course Icing a control deck's second blue source at end of turn is often a strong play. Thus Fire/Ice serves several important functions against non-aggro decks. I could be wrong, but I believe that three is a good number to have in the main deck. As for the Academy, there is certainly a strong argument for playing it. In fact, I played it for quite a while in my build. Later on in the game, it can be very powerful, with several artifacts on the table. The reason I don't include it is that Control Slaver already has a very strong late game, and too often the Academy provides 0 mana in the early game. Even when I draw a single inexpensive artifact early on, I often hold that artifact to pitch to Thirst.
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The Academy: If I'm not dead, I have a Dragonlord Dromoka coming in 4 turns
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Wollblad
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« Reply #28 on: March 02, 2004, 08:47:39 am » |
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In general the deck has mana enough alreday without Tolaria Academy. I would like also to cut Mana Vault wich never makes me specially happy except when I can discard it to Thirst. Also the deck does not need Memory Jar. It is just another expensive card which tend to get stuck in your hand and when you ocessionally get to play it (often Welded up) you draw a lot of carddrawing and control elements. I would rather like a main decked Fact of Fiction there.
Now the problem is that I would like to cut two artifacts which the deck already is scarse on. But what artifact deserves inclusion? Not more mana, 25 mana sources is still enough. I would like to see an artifact for something like 2, 3 or maximum 4 mana that contributes to the deck concept but I cannot find any.
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And that how it is...
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Miaou
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« Reply #29 on: March 02, 2004, 10:49:00 am » |
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@Everyone: Well after some testing, I've found that Tolarian Academy is just too random. Sometimes it powers crazy plays, while other times it just sits there and does nothing (either because you didn't draw the artifacts or because they were pitched to thirst). It also makes mulligans more frequent. If you have balls then by all means go for it! However I'd rather play it safe, and cut the academy.
As for the third F/I I'm not sure I like it either. Two seems enough for me. What I would actualy like in its place is some card draw. Brainstorm is good but I'd want some "real" drawing. That is why I was attracted by Fact or Fiction. However if that goes main deck then I need some draw to wish for...Haven't found what though.
For the bounce spell, The Atog Lord was right: Echoing Truth is the way to go. It is generaly useful against artifact hate, and I've found it can make the aggro match easier, as usualy you can bounce two of their guys and save a few crucial turns.
@Wollblad: I've found the Mana Vault to be generaly very useful at powering the expensive artifacts. Even without them it can still be useful. I really wouldn't cut it because the mana it generates speeds you up alot.
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