[Discussion] Giving Away Wins for Cards Cheating or Not?

[jollysaintj]

I was having an argument the other day with a friend who in a recent tournament accepted 2 tundras for a 0-2 loss after beating this person. I also saw after time running out rolling the dice for a win.

I think the two are separate issues but all in all, in my opinion, its just flat out cheating. The issues that could arise:

a.) The biggest being you scam other people than the two of you out of doing well in the tournament
b.) Could it distort the meta game?

The tournament im talking about is from the past weekend in Rhode Island. Here I did fairly well finishing 9th and right behind me was Kerzner in 10th(sorry if I hacked your name) both of us just out of top 8 reach. After looking at the standings the player that had bribed my friend placed in the top 8. Im not saying both of us would have top 8'd but if he had lost his spot may have been ours. If it wasn’t ours it definitely belonged someone else.

Talking with other people we decided there were two categories giving away the win can fall into. The first is exchanging the win for cards, goods, or money. The second is "I cant top 8 so you can just have the win."

The second category ill talk about first, this is where you have no chance at making top 8 and the person you are playing usually is in the same boat. Here sure you could call it cheating and I would but effects are minimal. On the other hand there is a few occasions where you can meet your friend in a match and your friend gives you the win to better your chances. This isn't right.

The first category, exchanging wins for goods or money, is a little tricky. I would think if your willing to give up something for the win your most likely in contention for a prize. Does cheating apply here? To answer this question we can compare it to a sporting event like baseball. If team A is paid to lose to team B is that considered cheating? Of course it is, and people have been in huge amounts of trouble for it. On a smaller scale you can link that directly to this point. Player A is paying Player B to lose the game on purpose. But does it effect the game often enough to call it a problem?


Distorting the meta game may be a far fetched point but its worth a mention. If a Landstill player or someone playing another tier 1 deck is bribing their way threw a tourney or even once and places high in a tournament, someone looking at the results using it to judge a meta isn’t going to have a clear view of how it should have been. Weak point I know so ill leave it as is and move on.

So the question being asked here is bribing or even giving away the win cheating? What can be done about it? Can anything be done? Is it even a problem and im just complaining for no reason?

Another thing I didn’t mention is rolling for a win after drawing. Using the Rhode island tournament as an example the two players that should have drawn but rolled for it actually drawn both players wouldn’t have made top 8. But by rolling one of them would have made top 8 and did. This wasn’t the only time in the tournament where I saw people rolling for the win but that roll had a definite effect on the top 8.

This post is not here for everyone to complain about getting burned by this. Though if you have asked for a win and giving them something for it I would like you to justify doing so. Please no flaming, just discussing.

[Kowal]

It's not asking so how to deal with it, it's really just asking how bad that really is.

It's perfectly within rights for a player to concede to another one.

If they agree to randomize via a die roll to see who wants to concede, there's nothing wrong with that.

Bribery on the other hand is completely unacceptable.  I witnessed the player offering to trade for a win as well, and I would have reported it myself if I wasn't busy smashing face with Ninja at the time.

[IamBean]

I expirienced similar problems on a little smaller scale.  I have seen people in drafts just rolling dice to determine who wins, just because they don't feel like playing late in the draft.  It's all about sportsmanship.  I think that your comparison to baseball is a very appropriate one.  It's a competative game, just like magic, and I think that Magic should treat bribes the same way.

[Mage of Dreams]

From the DCI floor rules.....

25.   Conceding Games or Matches
Players may concede a game or match at any time within the following guidelines. The conceded game or match is recorded as a loss for the conceding player. If a player refuses to play, it is assumed that he or she concedes the match.

The following actions are prohibited:
•   Offering or accepting a bribe or prize split in exchange for the win, loss, concession, drop, or draw of a match
•   Attempting to determine the winner of a game or match by a random method, such as a coin flip or die roll

Players who engage in these actions will be subject to the appropriate provisions of the DCI Penalty Guidelines.

Players are allowed to share prizes they have won as they wish, such as with teammates, as long as any such sharing does not occur as an exchange for the win, loss, concession, or draw of a game or match



From the penelty guidelines....161.   Cheating-Bribery
 
Definition
A player attempts to bribe an opponent into conceding, drawing, or changing the results of a match, or two players attempt to determine the outcome of a game or match using a random method such as a coin flip or die roll. Refer to section 25 of the Universal Tournament Rules for a more detailed description of what constitutes bribery.
   
Examples
(A) A player in a Swiss round offers his opponent $100 to concede the match.
(B) Two players roll a die to determine the winner of a match.
(C) A player offers his opponent a card in exchange for a draw.

Philosophy
Bribery disrupts the integrity of the tournament and is strictly forbidden. Randomly determining the outcome of a game or match is also specifically prohibited. Please refer to section 25 of the Universal Tournament Rules to ensure the proper application of this penalty.

Penalty

Cheating-Bribery
                 All Levels   
   Disqualification without prize   



Seems pretty clear to me, but then I was certain on the situation before. Even though T1 is mostly unsanctioned and we tend to bend the rules a bit (proxies), overwhelmingly we follow the rules (B/R list etc.) How the judge or TO handles it is of course thier own matter, but then their actions, or lack there of, say alot.

Shawn

[Smash]

Rolling a dice cannot be used to determing the winner. In sanctioned it's against the floor rules, and otherwise it is just ghetto and should not be allowed.

[Haksaw]

The word I've seen floating around on the boards is:

Collusion

A secret agreement between two or more parties for a fraudulent, illegal, or deceitful purpose.


As Mage of Dreams pointed out, any offer of a prize split or outside funds/cards is Bribery.  The rumor mill has been spilling that collusion is more severy than Bribery (as it actively involves both players...Bribery could be one sided).  Sticking with baseball, we're in Pete Rose territory...suspension or banning for life for both players.  

Is it a huge problem?  I was 4-0 at states, having fun kickin' butt with Goblin Bidding.  I was there to play, losing my last 3 matches.  I had other top players telling people to not draw to me if I asked (which I didn't).

In my opinion the game's meant to be played...period.  But the issue became serious a long time ago if it's happening in Montana.

[gzeiger]

I don't think there can be any question that both situations are cheating. As the original post mentions, somebody else completely uninvolved in the match in question lost a top 8 spot because of this behavior. That's the core of what it means to cheat - to create a situation where another player loses out for something that player has no control over. If you think about it, every single thing we consider to be cheating can be reduced to this. Rolling dice for a concession and bribing an opponent to concede are very much over the line.

Conceding to a player to let them make top 8 falls into the same category ethically, but is explicitly allowed in the rules due to the impossibility of enforcement and the principle that honest people shouldn't be punished for something that dishonest people could always get away with.

[Lord of the Goats]

Conceding to a player to let them make top 8 falls into the same category ethically, but is explicitly allowed in the rules due to the impossibility of enforcement and the principle that honest people shouldn't be punished for something that dishonest people could always get away with.

then ethically drawing into top 8 is the same. by id'ing someone looses a shot at top 8. is that wrong?

[Jawman16]

If we are talking about draws during the opening rounds (pre-top 8) then I believe any kind of agreement is cheating.  All the opening rounds should be played out becasue that is why we play the game, "to play."  If it is the finals and they want to work out a split for the prize and what not then I don't have a problem with that.  I can speak from experience in this area because the number one composite player in my state started playing type 1 just to become number one in that catagory as well.  He would offer splits where you would get first place prize but he would get the 2-0 victory.  Eventually I got sick of splitting in the finals with him every week and decided to just play it out.  I've realized it is more fun to play the games then win a prize and I usually win the matches these days anyways.  

I hate when people ID into top 8 because it does cost someone a shot the spot.  Be a man.  Play the games.  Prove you are the best.  Dont just assume that since you are TMD big moderator guy or whatever that you are better then some guy playing sligh.  Prove it

[Tautochrone]

Even if we can't enforce it, we can always find out who did it and ridicule/shun them for life.  

[Hi-Val]

IDing means that you paid the costs to be the boss. If you can ID in, you've already proven that you can hold up well enough in the field. It also gives time for the precious Taco Bell run.

Bribery is no good. Against the rules and against the spirit of the game.

[jazzykat]

Well I think that bribing and conceding should both be allowed or neither.

Reason to allow them: It is too hard to monitor each and every transaction. Everyone paid money to play for something. If both parties involved get what they want out of the transaction then everyone else will have to deal. I guess all outside parties should start negotiating too.

Reason to disallow them: First IMO drawing intentionally is panzy. You came to play the game right? Well why not just take a bribe if all you want to do is just receive sometime of gain out of the tourney. I believe it is against the competitive spirit to draw. Secondly bribery is wrong or at least looked at as wrong in America. In other places in the world bribes are a cost of doing business.

Personally, I would allow both because enforcement is too difficult. It is so easy to botch a match to give a guy a 2-0 even if you were made to play it out, and you could easily trade me 3 tundras for X worthless cards after the match, when you "won" and while it looks fishy it is almost impossible to prove that we were colluding. Maybe I just played like shit and you really wanted X.

[jpmeyer]

In many sports, such as fencing, ID'ing is a sign of respect.  It shows that both of you want to play each other "when it counts," ie the elimination rounds.

You can't do anything about conceding.  If I'm 4-0 for some reason (maybe I was afraid of tiebreakers or my 4th round opponent was late coming back from Taco Bell and didn't show) and I'm paired down against a 3-1, there's nothing to stop me from conceding since we'll both top 8.  But if we're playing it out anyway, what if he is going off with Dragon or something and he has an active Swarm out so I can't do anything anyway?  Am I not allowed to concede there even though both of us know I can't do anything and he'll win in a minute or two?  Players are allowed to concede at any time for any reason because otherwise you get into very murky territory very quickly.

[Tautochrone]

Quote: "First IMO drawing intentionally is panzy."

   The reason people intentionally draw is to ensure a place in T8. Why would two players who are 3-0 (out of 5 rounds) play it out? There's a chance that one of them might not make it so they draw to make sure that they make it to T8.

JazzyKat: I hope you NEVER run a tournament. If you would allow both bribing and cheating in a tournament then why the #$%@ should anyone PLAY THE GAME? Everyone should just pick up some dice, and roll them to see who wins each round. Then once someone loses the die roll to they can just offer the other person a couple cards for the win. And if that doesn't work they can always get on their knees...assuming they want a Mox or Lotus that bad because they're so un-confident in their decks that they'd rather start buying the win than earning it.

[jazzykat]

As to Jolly Saint J: Well I don't plan on running one. Furthermore if you can stop everyone from buying out (assuming everyone just wants to buy into the card anyway) then that is a lovely world. It usually happens that one or two people get fucked because people sold their T8 spots. I don't like that, so in a perfect world I would have to choose no drawing and no buying. Since it really can't be regulated are you going to make a rule that you can't enforce?

Also, my post isn't going to stop people from ID ing in. Nor is it going to make people stop bribing people. FUrthermore some people are going to chose to play their decks ALL the way through to first place, some will ID, some will buy, and some will claw their way in.

Furthermore, I feel that we should define the context of these actions. If you are purely a competitor(maybe I am wrong about competitor as was stated about fencing) then there would be no bribing or IDing.

If you play purely for some sort of monetary gain then.... you go figure it out.

If you play for both then you can choose whatever suits you on that day.

I am not saying anyone is wrong or right I am trying to be pragmatic about almost unenforcable rules.

[ELD]

First off, I'd like to say that I'm "purely a competitor"  However, I gauge how well I do on the "spoils of war", that is all.  I am not, in any way, satisfied leaving a tournament after sweeping the swiss and losing in the top 8.  I've done it countless times, and it sucks.  One loss on the day and not winning=of no value whatsoever.  I will do whatever it takes to win the tournament.  (well sometimes I'll still play a crappy deck, but I'll do everything possible to win with it)  

I know this isn't going to be popular.  I'm more of an arnarchist I guess.  I say let it all fly.  X-1-1 is going to make it to the top 8 (almost always).  If you play well, there's nothing anyone can do about it.  The only thing people whine about is when they might have made it in with X-2-0.  When I find myself in that position, I say win more, don't complain about what other people are doing.  

Don't get me wrong.  There are things that I don't like to see. In the top 4 two allied players don't play the match, and instead just wait to see who they'll be playing in the finals.  Then they send in the best deck for the match-up.  But I feel, there's nothing that can be done about this.  In fact, I think it's really a good idea.  I just don't like to be on the bad end of that deal.  But I've won in spite of it.  

There is one reason I'm for bribery.  It allows a player having a winning day to "sell" his uneeded match points to someone.  This can only works for me if bribery is allowed.  If not, the seller's friends are at a huge advantage over the rest of the field.  Bribery allows someone who's not friends with today's leader to have the same advantage as someone who's good friends with him.  It stops it from being a clique thing, to a winning the tournament at any costs thing.  

The best thing to do is to realize how the politics of the game work.  Keep your eyes open for possibilites to use politics.  This includes making deals when it doesn't matter if you lose, or allowing allies or favorable match-ups into the top 8.  Perhaps spliting with Hatred in the top 4.  You give him half the first place, he concedes.  Then you crush parfait in the finals.  It was a coin toss as to who would have won your match, but hatred isnt' going to beat parfait.  This gave you both the highest chance of winning some money.  

Try this imaginary (and somewhat unlikely) example.  Let's say I'm the top seed of the final round of swiss.  I get paired down against a favorable match up.  I know that everyone is going to ID in, leaving me the top seed even with a loss.  This guy will be the number 8 seed in the top 8 with a win.  Of course I'd concede and go scout the field, or get some food.  He can't draw, and I gain nothing from a win.  Plus, I get to face a good match-up in the top 8.  

Winning tournaments isn't just about winning magic games.  This is clearly illustrated by the ID.  You do what you can to win the whole thing, or get the most prizes/loot possible.  I say, if you're going to allow the ID, then allow it all.

Just my unpopular opinion,

[DEA]

you're right in a way
if i were depending on magic to make a living, or i REALLY get my kicks from winning tournaments, IDing, bribery, wouldn't bother me (unless i'm on the losing end, of course)
the problem is, i get enough of backstabbing and politics in my workplace
when i play, i just want to enjoy my game, and i want to keep it clean
that's the other side of the coin
some players ridicule those players that simply want to play it out when it's clear that even a win won't get them t8 and one for the opponent does
they're trying to get the ID and call the guy a sore loser for not giving in to peer pressure
i say screw them
you expect me to play politics with you? try it when you're paying me, dipshit

no offence intended

[Nameless]

I think this is a very good issue with many sides and facets that aren't exactly black or white, and this is a good thing...

I've taken a portion of a prize split before in exchange for a concession of sorts, but I'll explain...  Very often I have found myself in a position, mainly in Limited or T2, that I will be sitting in a match for T8 where one of us gets in for sure, and the other doesn't, or we both draw and take our chances with tiebreakers...

So in this case, let me explain something...  I don't play Magic for anybody else there at the tournament.  I play for ME.  I don't see anybody else handing me a prize because I got mana flooded/screwed in the first round of the T8, and I don't see anybody else walking up and giving me a pat on the back and some thanks for getting into the T8 because they beat me in the swiss.

So, when I'm in a situation like I mentioned a moment ago, it's very common for me to look over the top 8 decks, and between the two of us we'll let the person with the best odds 'win' the match, and as a consolation they will give a portion of what they won to the person who conceded.  Is that cheating?  Well, according to the floor rules, yea, I suppose it is.  But, by a great many Magic players, and frequent tournament goers, it is considered to be the standard.  Basically, you are saying, "Hey you're deck has a better shot at winning the T8 then mine does, and since only one of us can make T8 for sure, you hook me up if you win anything and I'll scoop now."  This is bad...  Why?  As I said, Magic is an individual sport.

The whole team might win when you win, but when you loose you're on your own.

As far as dice go...  Well, shit man, what's so different about deciding a match by dice?  I mean, how many times have you out there lost because of mana screw or flood?  That's just bad luck, I mean we spend weeks on end fine tuning a mana base, and making sure it's perfect, and 100 people will play that deck perfecly with no problems, but there's always that point where you sit down to play it and you draw 8 land in a row, or you get stuck on 1 or 2 land when the next one is 9 cards down, and you're opponent somehow has a dozen strips sitting on the table and taunting you.  Those losses certainly weren't planned, and are just plain random, but the question then is this...  Are they more or less random then just rolling some dice?

I mean really...  So you got booted out of T8 because somebody won a die roll and got the match.  So what?  Would you not have just as easily been booted out had that players opponent been mana screwed?  Maybe that person just had a better deck anyway, so he still would have won.  Who can say?  All it did was give the results more quickly really, since it's never going to happen when they could both make the finals by just drawing then you have to assume that only one of them will make T8, and they'd rather decide who that was quickly so the other person could just go do whatever.  These things happen.

Now I have a situation for you all then to think about...

Two friends of mine were playing in a 1.X tournament a while back, and they were in a position that one of them would make T8.  One says to the other, "Hey man, I know you're deck has a better chance against the field, so you go ahead and take it."  Then, the other replies with, "OK, cool.  I'll give you some swag if I make out."

What would you call that then?

[Rico Suave]

Now I have a situation for you all then to think about...

Two friends of mine were playing in a 1.X tournament a while back, and they were in a position that one of them would make T8.  One says to the other, "Hey man, I know you're deck has a better chance against the field, so you go ahead and take it."  Then, the other replies with, "OK, cool.  I'll give you some swag if I make out."

What would you call that then?

That's fine.  

To put it simply, bribery in Magic is when money/prizes are offered before the match is determined.  

In your example, the concession was finalized, then prizes were talked about.  That's perfectly acceptable, because the other person was not obligated to give anything in return for the concession - they did it out of good will.  This was mentioned in the DCI floor rules earlier in the thread, in the part where it says you may share prizes as long as it does not determine the outcome of the match.

[Tautochrone]

Exactly Rico Suave. If the person has no intention of getting something for conceding but does so out of good will then the other player was just being nice.

But I feel that once the person puts the gift before the price then it is obviously bribery and therefore cheating. If the person said, "Hey, if you scoop right now I'll give you a cut if I win something because my deck has a better chance in T8" then i would have a problem with that.

EDIT: Of course if I was in that position with thte weaker deck I would play it out anyway because I'd still have a shot at a prize. Even if I had no chance to make it I would make him play it out just because of the fact that I could ruin his day by knocking him out.  

[Nantuko Rice]

Ok... what I am going to write is going to be very unorganized because this topic is talking about alot of stuff at once but here it goes anyway:

Yes, I took 2 tundras for the game loss. I am honest and am willing to admit it. Well why not? I was 2-2-0 and he was 2-1-1 and he wanted to get into the top 8.

What Lord of the Goats and other people are saying is something I agree with. IDing into the top 8 is considered cheating in my books. By IDing, someone is losing the chance of being in the top 8 and by bribing, someone is also losing the chance of being in the top 8.

Why is IDing wrong? Just because two people have perfect 4-0 records, doesn't make them elite. That doesn't mean they should be allowed to take a free ride for two rounds and just ID. Who is to say they are the best and deserve top 8 positions so they are allowed to ID? If they deserve top 8 positions, they should play for top 8 positions. Worse case scenario, one of them becomes 5-0 and the other 4-1. In the final round, the 4-1 player since, he is so good, should be able to win and become 5-1 thus also ensuring a top 8 position.

I believe IDing should be considered a collusion and should not go on. If such behavior exists, then accepting bribes and conceding to friends should be allowed. Bribing and conceding is economically stupid.

Someone who packs 12 underground seas to a tournament and bribes everyone to get into the top 8 has a better chance just buying the lotus. If he played an awful deck, then he'll probably get 8th place of the top 8 and win something dumb anyway.

Let's compare "bribing" to trading. A shark trades a little kid a Might of Oaks for 2 Exalted Angels. Is that wrong? Yeah it's very wrong and shouldn't happen. Well losing/winning a game is something you can put up for trade. I don't think of it as losing a game so he can make it into the top 8. I think of it as a trade. And in a trade, the basic idea is both parties benefit. The little kid that got sharked, he benefited in his own mind, he got that Might of Oaks for his nasty squirrel deck so he can play at his friend's tribal theme party. In my trade, I got to finish my playset and he got a win. We both benefit. A successful trade occurs.

What was the point of that whole thing on trading? Morality. Generally, Magic players have low moral views. We are constantly out to gain better for ourselves such as by sharking. There are also those amongst us who only play Magic for monetary reasons. If people wish to roll dice for a win, let them. If people wish to trade a win/loss, let them do so. Why does it matter when things such as IDing in the top 8 are allowed.

Give me a good reason why top 8 players are allowed the oppurtunity to ID. Also, if anyone knows, post the reason why DCI allows players to ID.

 ======

Now looking at quoted stuff from other people...

"Bribery disrupts the integrity of the tournament and is strictly forbidden."
Well uhhh... IDing also disrupts the integrity of the tournament but that's not forbidden?

"25. Conceding Games or Matches
Players may concede a game or match at any time within the following guidelines. The conceded game or match is recorded as a loss for the conceding player. If a player refuses to play, it is assumed that he or she concedes the match.

The following actions are prohibited:
• Offering or accepting a bribe or prize split in exchange for the win, loss, concession, drop, or draw of a match
• Attempting to determine the winner of a game or match by a random method, such as a coin flip or die roll

Players who engage in these actions will be subject to the appropriate provisions of the DCI Penalty Guidelines.

Players are allowed to share prizes they have won as they wish, such as with teammates, as long as any such sharing does not occur as an exchange for the win, loss, concession, or draw of a game or match "

ALOT of people do splits and whatnots. Nobody cares then, why make an exception to bribes. People lie, we do it all the time. <sarcasm>When I offered to share my prize with the opponent, it was never because it affected the outcome of the game.</sarcasm>

"The example of comparing magic bribes to baseball bribes"
When we play Magic on the olympic team or in some important event such as determing the champion, bribery shouldn't be allowed. BUT we were playing in someone's garage for some prizes, nothing big like a national pasttime (ie baseball).

"As the original post mentions, somebody else completely uninvolved in the match in question lost a top 8 spot because of this behavior."
Same thing happens when people ID.

"IDing means that you paid the costs to be the boss. If you can ID in, you've already proven that you can hold up well enough in the field."
Who says you're the boss. Your playing Tog and I'm playing my anti-tog deck. You never played me, your not boss. There is no "boss" or "super deck" in Magic. It's rock-paper-scissors.

"In many sports, such as fencing, ID'ing is a sign of respect."
Yeah, respect for each other, that's great and all but it doesn't do the people not IDing any good. You know what I think is a sign of respect, giving me a a complete set of power 9.

"Even if I had no chance to make it I would make him play it out just because of the fact that I could ruin his day by knocking him out. "
Liar, you told me that day if you were in my shoes you would've taken the two tundras too.

Anyway... I think this discusiion is real good and my post is a bit to long...

[rvs]

It's not asking so how to deal with it, it's really just asking how bad that really is.

It's perfectly within rights for a player to concede to another one.

If they agree to randomize via a die roll to see who wants to concede, there's nothing wrong with that.

Bribery on the other hand is completely unacceptable.  I witnessed the player offering to trade for a win as well, and I would have reported it myself if I wasn't busy smashing face with Ninja at the time.

A die roll to determine a match outcome is not acceptable either.

I'll make this really easy: It's only 'clean' to concede if there is no re-imbursement whatsoever after the match from one player to another. However, since the tournament in question wasn't DCI (right?), it's up to the descretion of the organiser. If you pull a stunt like this in a tournament of mine, you WILL be DQ-ed for Bribery.

Conceding to a player to let them make top 8 falls into the same category ethically, but is explicitly allowed in the rules due to the impossibility of enforcement and the principle that honest people shouldn't be punished for something that dishonest people could always get away with.

then ethically drawing into top 8 is the same. by id'ing someone looses a shot at top 8. is that wrong?

There's actually a practical reason why ID's aren't stopped. Simply put, there's no way for a judge to determine if someone is making the optimal play, or doing the right thing. If people want to draw, they can just sit there for 50 minutes. There's no way to ever enforce no ID-ing, even though we'd like to.

[Nantuko Rice]

There's no way to ever enforce no ID-ing, even though we'd like to.

Enforcing bribery and the like is also difficult to enforce.

[rvs]

There's no way to ever enforce no ID-ing, even though we'd like to.

Enforcing bribery and the like is also difficult to enforce.

Yup. But not as impossible as ID's.

[jpmeyer]

The difference between a split and a bribe is that 1) a split is independent of the match and 2) a split uses the prize.

Therefore a bribe says "I give you X to get result Y" where a split says "The winner gets prize X and the loser gets prize Y."  And a top 8 slot is not a prize.

[ELD]

A top 8 berth can be a prize.  Try this for example.  What if the only prizes are for the top 8.  Two players are paired up in the final round with a top 8 berth on the line.  Only one will make it in.  Deck A and Deck B (which beats deck A).  Deck B, however, has no chance in the top 8.  Deck A has a very good chance.   Deck B concedes, accepting 1/2 of whatever Deck A earns in the top 8.  Stuff like this happens all the time.  

I also pose a question for those who don't like ID's and all the other strategies to win tournaments.  I hear alot of "I'm just playing for fun"  and similar comments.  If you're just there for fun, how can you be so concerned with what everyone else is doing.  My advice, determine if you're there to win, or just to flop some cards.  If you're just there to flop some cards, don't get all bent out of shape about what other people are doing.

[Xhad]

Brian Kibler put it best: Expecting people not to ID is like expecting them to only play rogue decks.  No serious tournament player is going to use suboptimal strategies on purpose, whether it relates to deck choices or use of tournament rules.

[LoA]

I also pose a question for those who don't like ID's and all the other strategies to win tournaments. I hear alot of "I'm just playing for fun" and similar comments. If you're just there for fun, how can you be so concerned with what everyone else is doing. My advice, determine if you're there to win, or just to flop some cards. If you're just there to flop some cards, don't get all bent out of shape about what other people are doing.

I generally play "for fun" since time rarely allows me the chance to playtest like I could during Tempest block.  Still, when I go to tournaments I might not be brutal about certain timing rules, I do expect everyone there to be above-board when it comes to issues such as sportsmanship.  If I get to the Top 8, it will be because I played well enough to get there, not because I have a nice trade folder and I expect the same from others in the tournament.  I actually see a difference between bribes and IDing since if I'm 5-0 on my own merit, going 5-0-1 is a viable option I've earned the right to whereas going 5-0 by giving away duals strikes me as hollow.

[jpmeyer]

A top 8 berth can be a prize.  Try this for example.  What if the only prizes are for the top 8.  Two players are paired up in the final round with a top 8 berth on the line.  Only one will make it in.  Deck A and Deck B (which beats deck A).  Deck B, however, has no chance in the top 8.  Deck A has a very good chance.   Deck B concedes, accepting 1/2 of whatever Deck A earns in the top 8.  Stuff like this happens all the time.  

That seems a little murky, but I'm pretty sure that it's OK since making top 8 is assuring some kind of prize.  The important part of that is "accepting 1/2 of whatever Deck A earns."  That shows that it's still part of the prize that's being given up, which helps to define it as a split.

[Lucentspirit]

I feel I should start by saying I'm a big fan of good sportmanship. Some unwritten rules of good sportsmanship are pretty clear. Like, "Don't punch your opponent in the face for beating you." Others, like the ones we've been discussing are a little more fuzzy.

    My thoughts on leaving a match up to a dice roll/coin flip...... If a tournament's rules clearly state that it is forbidden then those are the rules you should go by. You accept these rules and the punishments for breaking them when you enter that tournament.

    On the other hand. I've been in tournaments with very lax rules. A few weeks ago, I called a player on having 14 cards in his sideboard. The offical rulling...... he needed to play with a basic land as his 15th SB card. I say OK, he puts a swamp in a sleeve, and we start playing.

    What I'm getting at is it's largely up to the tournament orginizers and officals to decide what rules should be enforced and how strictly they should enforce them. The level of enforcement should be known before the tounament and by going to that tournament you should accept any rules wheather you agree with them or not. You should never find yourself saying "well were I play we do it this way!" If your not where you usually play.... traditions in rules and things like IDing to make top 8 may be different. SO, when in Rome.......

        I've found 99% of the time officals try to be as fair as possible and by and large there is a reason why the men in the black and white stripes are making the calls they do.

     One more thing I want to bring up...... Does anyone here remember this thing they used to do called PLAYING FOR ANTE? My understanding is that ante was created so that kids that were better players that couldn't afford cards could win them from the more wealthy but less skilled players. I don't think offering or taking bribes is good sportmanship, but, it does remind me of the days when a better player could walk away from a match with a couple of cards in their pocket taken from a more wealthy player with poorer skills. As a side note, if a player was really good, they wouldn't take the bribe or the loss...... they would claw their way into top 8 and win win win....!