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Author Topic: [Deck] Control Slaver  (Read 22210 times)
The Atog Lord
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« on: February 24, 2004, 04:08:35 pm »

I’ve had several players asking me about Control Slaver, so I want to give an account of the deck. In general, Control Slaver has control elements, such as Mana Drain and Force of Will, in addition to Mindslaver and Goblin Welder. This deck is fueled by Thirst for Knowledge, which not only draws cards to help the Control aspect of the deck, but also drops artifacts into the graveyard for the Welders to return.

Here is my current list:

// Creatures
        1 Platinum Angel
        1 Pentavus
        4 Goblin Welder
// Counter
        4 Mana Drain
        4 Force of Will
// Drawing
        4 Thirst for Knowledge
        3 Brainstorm
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Memory Jar
        3 Fire/Ice
// Other
        2 Mindslaver
        1 Tinker
        1 Time Walk
        2 Cunning Wish
// Black
        1 Yawgmoth's Will
        1 Demonic Tutor
// Mana
        1 Mana Crypt
        1 Mana Vault
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Black Lotus
// Land
        1 Library of Alexandria
        2 Underground Sea
        4 Flooded Strand
        4 Volcanic Island
        6 Island
// Sideboard
SB:  1 Shattering Pulse
SB:  1 Fire/Ice
SB:  1 Fact or Fiction
SB:  2 Blood Moon
SB:  3 Rack and Ruin
SB:  1 Hibernation
SB:  4 Red Elemental Blast

The sideboard list above is only 13 cards because the sideboard should be tailored to your specific metagame. I ran a pair of Lightning Bolts on Sunday because I expected Suicide Black to make a strong showing. If I were expecting Long, I’d play Chalice. If dragon, then Tormod’s Crypt.

The Hibernation may look somewhat out of place. It’s mostly there for OStompy, which is a terrible match for me. In the first game, its Null Rod and Root Maze are troublesome. After boarding, when it brings in Ground Seal, things get much worse. Hibernation lets me remove both of its annoying green enchantments, as well as bounce its creatures.

Now, a few notes on the maindeck. I’m fairly confident that the Angel and the Pentavus are the right artifact creatures to include in the deck. Having the pair of large monsters lets the deck play like a bad blue control deck if the Welder plan somehow fails. Angel is great against combo decks, such as Long and Dragon. In particular, once Dragon has decked you, you can use a Welder to return her from the Graveyard to play. Also, some aggro decks, such as Madness, have a very difficult time dealing with her.

On the other hand, Pentavus is amazing against aggro and control. You can remove tokens from it, block, put damage on the stack, and then return the tokens. Against control, if they attempt to Swords it or Disenchant it, you can make all of the tokens fly off, leaving you with an army in play. His synergy with Goblin Welder is also ridiculous. You can remove a token and exchange it for any artifact in your graveyard with Welder. Moreover, the deck can go infinite with two Welders, a Pentavus, and a Slaver.

As I mentioned above, Thirst is a key card to this deck. It digs into the library and nets serious card advantage. Then, it allows you to discard your Mindslaver for your welder to recur. It’s inexpensive card drawing which has great synergy with the rest of the deck.

Fire/Ice is an important answer, strong enough that I went to three Brainstorms for a third one. Mox Monkey is an issue for this deck, and this is the best maindeck way to deal with him. Opposing Welders are also scary, and this deals with them. Beyond that, Fire/Ice keeps surprising me with its versatility. It can tap down a Scepter with Chant on it to give you the turn you need to win. It can burn a few creatures in Sligh, or tap down a monster in Madness. Against combo, it hits Xantid Swarms.

I’ve had a number of players ask me why I include black. The answer is Yawgmoth’s Will. If you read my tournament report from Sunday, you’ll see that I won several games by drawing this card and casting it. When I first started playing this deck, I cut the black, hoping for a more stable two-color mana base. However, the deck was lacking. The Will allows the deck to play like a combo deck and win games it otherwise could not win. It lets you replay your Welders which have been killed and the Moxes which you’ve fed to those Welders. With Thirst, the deck almost never has an empty graveyard. And, once black is being splashed for Will, it becomes difficult to justify excluding Demonic Tutor.

The deck plays Library and not Academy. While I’ve heard a number of players discussing how Library is no longer the card it once was, it remains a very potent card in this deck. I often find myself in draw-go mode against control decks, with each player just drawing and developing his hand. This card is great in that situation. Also, of course, it is one of the best cards to have in your opening hand. As for the exclusion of Academy, this deck doesn’t play enough artifacts to justify its inclusion. I started with it in the deck, but too often, I found that I’d rather just have another island over it. The current mana base works rather well.

I don’t have exact matchup win percentages, but I can say that in general, Control Slaver has a good game against other control decks, and a more difficult time against aggro decks. OStompy is a terrible matchup, and Sui isn’t all that great either. In both cases, their disruption can overpower you and stall you long enough to let their creatures finish you off. Against control, Control Slaver has a lot of card drawing, and more threats than most other control decks. Being able to bring in Blood Moon out of the sideboard is strong because quite a few control decks cannot deal with the card very well.
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« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2004, 10:04:35 pm »

First, let me say that this looks great. However, I really think you can afford to lose an Island for another Underground Sea. Is 5 Islands versus six for better reliability with the black cards that hefty?
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« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2004, 10:08:24 pm »

also, is dragon a good enough matchup where you don't want any crypts or even a solitary coffin purge to fetch?
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« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2004, 10:11:03 pm »

Well, in the first paragraph he mentions swapping 3 SB slots around between Chalice for Tendrils.dec and Tormod's Crypt for Dragon.
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« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2004, 10:24:44 pm »

Thanks, Zherbus.

A third Underground might be good. I developed the mana base while running Blood Moon in the maindeck, which explains the six basic Islands. So far, I haven't had much of a problem with black mana, but a third Underground might be better than an Island.

The matchup against Dragon isn't that great. Still, as Zherbus pointed out, I only listed a 13 card sideboard, so if there is Dragon in your area, you can add answers to the board. It isn't very popular here at the moment.
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« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2004, 04:49:31 pm »

With so many basic lands, unless you are fearing blood moon greatly, then I don't see a reason why a fifth island couldn't be The Academy. I understand that the deck isn't as explosive as more aggressive builds, but I don't understand thinking that there aren't going to be enough artifacts to make running this worth it. It's on color, and works well with getting mana drain mana.

I can see not running it, but I just wonder if, like you said, the mana base needs to be slightly re-evaluated since you have shifted away from the blood moons.
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« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2004, 07:46:45 pm »

I tried the Academy, and it was in the initial list. However, on more than a few occasions, it produced no mana at all. While there is a large number of artifacts in the deck, many of them are expensive. While I would certainly include the Academy in a Workshop list if I built one, I don't believe that this deck can afford a land which will not infrequently produce nothing. Especially with all of the artifact removal floating around right now.
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« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2004, 08:35:38 am »

I'm a big believer that you have to put broken cards in your deck to see broken hands and plays. This often means including apparently 'suboptimal' cards merely because they have the potential to be explosively powerful. It is for that reason that I'd run academy.
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« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2004, 12:34:09 pm »

Rich played Academy for a long time but he was lucky to get UU up from it when it mattered, and this was against decks with no mana denial whatsoever that I threw at it. Most of the time it was worse than or equal to an Island. Control Slaver only has a couple more artifact mana sources than most other blue-based control decks, and it is generally accepted that Academy is not consistently good enough to make the cut in those decks.

There is a very fine line between brokenness and consistency in Control Slaver - more so than most other decks I've seen - and I think in the case of Academy I think Slaver has to give the nod to consistency. By making the mana base more consistent, the more broken plays happen more consistently because it (the mana base) isn't as easily disrupted - at least, that's what I've seen with this deck.
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« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2004, 01:58:09 pm »

Out of curiousity is there any particular reason you don't use Mind Twist? I run it in my own version and have generally been pleased with it. Other than that question I had, I think your build looks pretty solid.  Smile
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« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2004, 04:01:05 pm »

My guess is it's poor synergy with Mind Slaver.
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« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2004, 07:15:17 pm »

Quote
Out of curiousity is there any particular reason you don't use Mind Twist?


As Zherbus pointed out, Twisting someone and then taking their turn isn't especially powerful.

Moreover, I believe that the functionality of Mind Twist is somewhat similar to that of Mindslaver. Mind Twist is a slow, often expensive spell which has the potential to devastate a control or combo player later on in the game, once a certain amount of mana is available. Mindslaver is, in many respects, the very same thing. And of course Slaver has far better synergy with the rest of the deck. In other words, Twist doesn't really let the deck do anything it isn't already good at doing.
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« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2004, 09:01:01 pm »

My only issue with that logic is that with SoLoMoxenVaultCrypt + Mana Drain, Twist is going to be a lot faster than trying to Slaver them.

4-6 mana > 10 mana.

But yeah, I can see the lack of synergy arguement your talking about. It's just such a powerful 'I Win' card, I was curious if there was any other reason for it besides that. Thanks though.
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« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2004, 07:14:41 am »

for 10 mana you also wreck his board position in most of the cases. Also, Slavering often involves weldering, so often it's less than a 10 mana investement.
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« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2004, 02:44:09 pm »

Hello everyone.  I'm glad to be back to posting.  Since Atog Lord stomped my combo keeper in a tournament a month ago, I've been testing it out.  I'm really glad I was playing a crappy deck that day.  If I was running tog, and had somehow beaten him, I still wouldn't know that this deck is good.  I had played against it on several occasions, and had never even seen it go infinate.  It really seemed impossible to me that pentavus could be good with its 7 cc.  Lucky for me, my keeper deck was helpless against it.  Whenever I lose to something and it wasn't through obvious play errors, I build the deck.  I test it.  I learn it so the next time I play against it, I know the deck better than my opponent.  

So I threw it together.  I went up to 4 brainstorm immediately.  I went on to win several local tournaments with it.  I won the mox tournament at the Cape with it.  No disrespect to Jacob, but I should have been in the finals of the Double Lotus tournament with it.  (I had the cards, but I made some of the worse misplays I've ever made in a tournament)  At that tournament, I defeated Atog Lord in a match where my sideboarded coffin purge was the deciding factor in one game.  So with that as evidence, I'm stating that my list is very strong.  

I've been having alot of success with my list.  I'm hoping everyone thinks it's crap, cause I don't want to play against it.  

// Creatures
1 Platinum Angel
1 Pentavus
4 Goblin Welder
1 Gorilla Shaman
// Counter
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
// Drawing
4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Memory Jar
1 Fact or Fiction
// Other
2 Mindslaver
1 Tinker
1 Time Walk
2 Cunning Wish
// Black
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
// Mana
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
// Land
1 Library of Alexandria
3 Underground Sea
4 Flooded Strand
4 Volcanic Island
5 Island
// Sideboard
2 Blood Moon
3 Flametounge Kavu
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Coffin Purge
1 Stifle
1 Divert
1 Echoing Truth
1 Chain of Vapor
2 Gorilla Shaman
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Firestorm


I'll address the changes from Atog Lords list.  

Fact or Fiction
I've seen so many 5-0 splits with Fact or Fiction, that I'm convinced it belongs in the maindeck.  It's a good way to put stuff in the graveyard, and is amazing card advantage.  It's restricted for a reason.  

Brainstorm
4 brainstorm is a must for me.  Honestly, your average opening hand is so much better when runnning 4 brainstorm.  Any hand with land, fetch, brainstorm is usually worth keeping.  

Lack of Fire/Ice
I find that fire/ice is really not needed in the main deck.  Many of the decks that it is good against, you'd be better off with a Brainstorm/FoF to try and combo off or even get out a Pentavus or Platnum Angel.  Last night at Scholar's Monday Night Type 1 I was playing against a sui/mask deck that I let Nick borrow.  Just like he did in game 1, he went first turn swamp, duress, lotus negator in game 3.  I had a decent hand, with a FTK remaining.  Within a turn or two, he put out a shade.  He even resolved a Chains of Mephistophles (I hate when my own sideboard is used against me) The whole time, I was churing through my deck.  FoF was used under chains, and it gave me the mana vault to drop my platnum angel.  I stabilized at 4 life with counter back up to protect the angel.  I got back up to library range, started drawing during his draw step and had no problem defending the angel for 5 turns.  More often than not, winning against aggro involves creating a game state where they cannot impact the game at all.  Card drawing makes this happen.  

Mox Monkey main
As far as the welder mirror, I feel that mox monkey, both in the main, and in the sideboard is the best answer for welder.  Opposing welders are not a bad thing, in fact they are helpful when you slaver.  The problem is when they weld stuff that you'd rather they didn't.  Mox monkey stops that from happening.  With FCG running wild, I find that he is a great turn 1 answer to lackey too.  

Underground Sea
It would probably be ok to run 4.  3 is fine so far, but it really has to do with the fact that you can do some sick stuff with lotus/spare moxen with your welders.  Usually when I'm about to will, I've got atleast 8 mana floating, and I haven't tapped a land yet.  Basic Islands are still a great help, so I think 3 is a good number for now.  
Sideboard

Chain of Vapor
Chain has more than proved it's worth.  Slaver against a deck, and use this to just win.  It also removes permanant hosers and can be wished for when echoing truth was sb in.  

Flame Tounge Kavu
Whenever I play a new deck, I try and feel what it plays like.  This deck feels like UrPhid to an extent.  So I thought about the old Ur sideboards and came up with Control Magic and FTK.  While it was clear they were both tremendous tempo cards, FTK was just superior.  It doesn't have to take up U mana.  It's really easy to drop quickly.  It kills damn near anything.  Two of anything.  I won a game, very quickly, in which I never saw a welder or a mindslaver.  Double FTK plus the burn from 2 Su Chi was enough.  Most of the time, FTK is about tempo.  Making your opponents previous efforts useless and buying you enough time to set up the combo.  It is said that this decks biggest problem is aggro.  This totally fixes that problem.  

Vampiric Tutor
It has been a useful enough wish targe to stay in my board.  It gets a game ending card.  Having vamp in the graveyard on a Will turn is certainly useful as well.

Coffin Purge
This one is amazing.  As I said, welders only matter if they weld.  It counters a weld, and is very hard to deal with.  It can be extremely disruptive in the mirror.  Removing the lone pentavus, or mindslaver can be very hard to work around.  The flashback means that they need two welders to work around it, as countering it just allows you to flash it back with the weld still on the stack.  Of course it's not too shabby against dragon, rector trix etc...

Stifle, Firestorm, Divert
Marginally useful.  Stifle and Divert have won some games.  Possibly games only they could win.  I'm not convinced that that is enough to make it worth the slot.  I have never wished for firestorm.  I'm certain I never will.  I used to play the card when I only played multiplayer.  It rocked in my Terravore/Oath of Druids/Wildfire/Obliterate deck.  When I  found out I could now play it and not be harrassed about it I thought it would be fun to throw it in.  I was wrong.  People still made fun of me.  The card still isn't very good.  Maybe someday, I'll Firestorm, pitching a slaver and pentavus to win the game.  Today is not likely that day.  

Things I've seen/tried

Mystical Tutor Main
I moved Mox Monkey into this slot.  While it won alot of games, it doesn't impact the mirror quite as much as the Monkey.  It's not amazing when you want to be the control deck either.  It forced me to play a very comboish game, and I could be beaten by a timely counter, or even my own jar gone wrong.  

Phychatog
While I had joked about it and dismissed it, Pat Broderick actually put him in the main deck and tried it out.  It was surprizingly effective.  Mr. Teeth totally owned my Dryad hate build (despite the 3 Dampening Matrix main)  It's certainly better against aggro than mox monkey.  The only exception would be first turn lackey.  The confusion factor should not be dismissed.  Early game, it looks like you're playing tog anyways.  This can affect how your opponent plays.  I can think of hundreds of obsure ones.   How about a Big O player pitching a MD ground seal to mongrel because it's dead against tog and they'd rather have the mana to EOT arrogant wurm.  

Strip Mine
Corey Fraiser surprised me with this at Scholar's.  In a mirror match you usally don't need to worry about LD.  He took out my first turn library in a match where I thought I was just going to roll him.  While I still won on the strength of Mox Monkey killing 3 of the 5 mana sources he saw in what was a short game, it might be worth considering.  Even just for taking down library.  Slaver is all about getting to a degenerate game state.  If this card gives you the tempo to do so, or just slows you down is yet to be seen.  

NOTE about Platnum Angel
This card gets sided out so much it's not even funny.  I'm not sure it belongs.  While it has won me a few games, it may need some support or something.  Perhaps a main deck lightning greaves or something.  As it is now, most times when I drop it, my opponent can handle it in 5 turns.  In testing, even FCG could remove the thing with a cycled incinerator.  It certainly has it's merits, but I'm considering a 2nd pentavus or a 3 slaver for it.  
Well that's all I got for now.  Glad I can post again.
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« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2004, 03:08:54 pm »

Thanks for posting, you have some very promising ideas. I'm certainly inspired to do some testing.

The fourth Brainstorm is something which the deck wants more than anything else, I think. I'm not thrilled with cutting all of the Fire/Ices. I know that Gorilla Shaman is strong in the mirror match, but Fire is too. Both cards handle Goblin Welders. Yet, Fire/Ice is useful in almost every match; and if it isn't useful, it cycles. You mentioned that the Gorilla is strong against Food Chain Goblins. Fire is amazing in that matchup as well.

I want to mention Coffin Purge. Purge indeed counters a Welding. But, Blue Elemental Blast destroys a Welder outright. Purge is strong against Dragon, but so is BEB. BEB is also very powerful against Food Chain Goblins, and it can counter Gorilla Shaman.
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« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2004, 03:26:50 pm »

Quote from: ELD
Hello everyone.  I'm glad to be back to posting.


We're glad too.


I still feel pretty strongly that Mind Twist belongs in this deck. If I were to play it I would find room for one.

It's hard because there are so many cards that want to go in this deck. The ubiquitous power and versatility of fire/ice vs. the narrow but crushing shaman and the consistency of Brainstorm. Personally I would not cut fire, it too often takes 6+ damage off the board of stompy/goblins or shuts off Mana Drain eot.

With only 2 slavers, 1 jar, and a handful of artifact beef, are 4 welder's really necessary? What has always struck me about control slaver lists is the disparity between the number of welders and the number of artifacts worth welding. Wouldn't a 4 Brainstorm, 3 Welder list be stronger than 3 Brainstorm, 4 Welder?
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« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2004, 03:37:48 pm »

Quote from: Eastman
With only 2 slavers, 1 jar, and a handful of artifact beef, are 4 welder's really necessary? What has always struck me about control slaver lists is the disparity between the number of welders and the number of artifacts worth welding. Wouldn't a 4 Brainstorm, 3 Welder list be stronger than 3 Brainstorm, 4 Welder?

In a word, no. Brainstorms are good, but they aren't that good. The cards that are most important to this deck are Ancestral Recall, Thirst for Knowledge, Mindslaver, and Goblin Welder. The only reason you don't run 4 Mindslavers is because of the casting cost. It is that good. Goblin Welder is like a 1 casting cost Mindslaver (or Memory Jar, or Pentavus, or Platinum Angel), so cutting one would be one of the worst things you could do.

Mind Twist is indeed a bomb against aggro and control alike, but the difficulty is finding room. Rich (TheAtogLord) reasons that Mindslavering your opponent is essentially like Mind Twisting them, and I totally agree with this sentiment. The deck works as much as possible to abuse and re-abuse Mindslaver, so rather than wasting time Mind Twisting them, you should be using that mana and time to Mindslaver them. Therefore, it is not essential to the deck, therefore it usually won't make the cut when the deck is so tight on room as it is.
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« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2004, 03:39:26 pm »

Goblin Welder is a vital piece of the Control Slaver deck. Welders, because they are small creatures, are susceptible to removal and having four copies helps make certain that at least one remains on the table.

Beyond that, Welders are almost never something I am unhappy to draw. Along with Thirst, they are why the deck works. In the mid to late game, they are of course amazing. Even in the early game, consider that the deck runs five expensive artifacts -- Jar, two creatures, and two Slavers. With all of its card drawing, it is often very possible to discard one such artifact to Thirst in the first few turns.

Having multiple Welders is never a bad thing. And, even if their activated ability for some reason isn't working, they can win the game by attacking (see the coverage of the Northeast Championship finals).
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« Reply #19 on: March 24, 2004, 02:35:36 am »

Looking at ELD´s list I see he is playing is a control environment. Taking out all F/I is a mistake. You´re running a lot of card draw, nice vs control, but against aggro, when lizards or goblins are beating you up, you don´t want to spend your time and mana drawing into draw spells into more draw spells. Sometimes you need (cheap) answers and F/I is just that.

FoF, though it has amazing synergy with the deck, should be SB, otherwise you have nothing to Wish for that draws you cards.

My list would by Atog list, with 2 F/I and 4 BS. I´m physically unable to play less than 4 Brainstorm in decks like these.

The Kavus in the SB I like a lot. The Divert I don´t like, I would take MisD over it any time of the day.
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« Reply #20 on: March 24, 2004, 03:00:37 am »

Cutting F/I is good.  Your game plan against aggro is pretty much just to find an angel and protect it anyway, which fire/ice isn't helpful for.  Draw spells get you mana, mana gets you tutorage (via wish or otherwise) and tutorage gets you tinker or the angel itself.  When your opponent has between zero and six cards you're afraid of, the game becomes a lot easier.  Likewise, Mana Vault and Mana Crypt become less scary.
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« Reply #21 on: March 24, 2004, 04:37:31 am »

I played in the same enviornment as Rich.  I finished the swiss undefeated and the second seed.  I defeated him head to head, and had I not made two disgustingly poor play errors, would have played him again in the finals.  To say cutting fire/ice is a mistake irks me.  Don't get me wrong.  I mean, you're entitled to your opinion, but I've been dominating with the deck.  When we start talking card choices as "mistakes" we can come across as arrogant and closeminded.  There are few things that are actually "mistakes."  Not what you'd prefer, but not wrong.  

Sometimes people play differently with similar decks.  I can point to a recent article on star city games for an example.  It spoke of how 2 very good players ran UG madness with great success.  One thought Looter was the be all end all, the other thought it was crap.  In the mirror, one thought that rootwalla should be boarded out for beef, the other felt the match was all about tempo and the rootwallas were gold.  To say something is a "mistake" when it has yielded unquestionable success baffles me.  It may not be your style, but is certainly not a mistake.  

As far as not running FoF in the main because you want to wish for card drawing, I feel that logic is flawed.  FoF is a bomb that blows games wide open, allowing you to combo out  when you otherwise didn't have time to win.  It is like a uber thirst for knowledge in many ways.  Wishing for it is often too slow.  If you need to wish for card drawing, that is in no way related to where the FoF should be.  There is always Skelatal Scrying to wish for if you wanted another target.  FoF just one of many solid instant speed card drawers available Razz

I played against a mix including Dragon, FCG, Alluren Combo, TNT, Rich's Slaver, and some random fish decks.  A good deal of my matches were against aggro.  I certainly had my deck geared towards the mirror, as IMHO it's one the two best deck right now.  However, I did play against, and defeat, both of the FCG decks that were in the top 8.  I'm pretty sure they were sweeps too.  (not sure about the first match as it didn't end up counting)

At no point did I feel threatened by anything that fire/ice would have removed.  If it is that small, it's not an issue.  I'll combo out before they kill me.  If not I'll lose.  With the threat density of decks that Fire/Ice is best against, removing a creature is not as game breaking as it needs to be.  If you are in a spot where that creature was a real problem, you'll be right back in a turn or two.  If you push for the lock, you can often get it very easily against those decks, as they have no permission what so ever.  

Perhaps that's just the way that I play.  In order to win this is what I need to do.  Against aggro I need to combo them out.  Against Combo I need to control.  Against Control I need to out play them.

I appologize if the tone of this post is harsh.  It's in no way intended to be, but it's like 4:30 in the AM and I'm probably a bit more blunt that my usual self Razz
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« Reply #22 on: March 24, 2004, 07:16:40 am »

Quote from: ELD
Perhaps that's just the way that I play.  In order to win this is what I need to do.  Against aggro I need to combo them out.  Against Combo I need to control.  Against Control I need to out play them.


How do you Combo out an aggro deck that packs 5 Strip effects and maindecks 4 Null Rods and can still pull 4/4 dudes on turn 2 or 3 ? TNT is probably not really hard because you have Fire/Ice for Welders and Welders for their dudes, but how does this deck deals with Oshawa Stompy or even Madness? You can rely on the single Mindslaver activation here, and Platinum Angel is kinda weak, as they can drop you to 0 with their beaters and sit here until they find some kind of Artifact removal.
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« Reply #23 on: March 24, 2004, 01:17:45 pm »

Quote
How do you Combo out an aggro deck that packs 5 Strip effects and maindecks 4 Null Rods and can still pull 4/4 dudes on turn 2 or 3 ? TNT is probably not really hard because you have Fire/Ice for Welders and Welders for their dudes, but how does this deck deals with Oshawa Stompy or even Madness? You can rely on the single Mindslaver activation here, and Platinum Angel is kinda weak, as they can drop you to 0 with their beaters and sit here until they find some kind of Artifact removal.


5 strips, 4 null rods and 4/4 beatsticks.  I guess that could be a difficult match  Razz   Here's the plan.  There are 5 basic Islands.  Find them and put them down.  Do not let wasteland slow you down.  Null rod is either going to get countered, or dealt with later.  Identify which way you need to go and commit to it.  If you don't have enough moxen out to make it worth countering, you're going to have to bounce it eot and then lock them out.  Most of what your opponent is doing isn't going to matter too much.  Until you're getting to the red zone, creatures are not the thing to worry about.  Your resources can be used to set up a lock, draw cards and create a degenerate game state.  Look for an oppourtunity to thirst a pentavus into the graveyard and weld him back for some savage combat tricks.  

When you do combo against the Big O, chain of vapor, or an opposing mongrel or survival is solid.  Survival will put all of their future threats in the graveyard over a couple turns.  Mongrel dumps their hand.  Chain of vapor destroys all their lands and leaves them with no threats.  If you need to win quickly, the goal is to get out a pentavus and make 5 guys.  Remember, with just one other artifact, and 4 mana you have 20 through the air.  Weld out the mana artifact first, then one pentavite a turn for slaver and they'll die with the final pentiavite damage.  It's really not alot to set up.  

Against the less popular madness decks, I guess wonder would be a problem that would be dealt with.  I have coffin purge in the board for just such an occasion.  

As far as Platnum Angel, I often board it out if I expect some kind of artifact removal.  Removal is often craptastic against the rest of the deck, as both slaver and pentavus are meant to be sac'd anyways.  Angel has been a concern for me and will likely be removed from the main deck if I start to see artifact removal in alot of main decks.  While it's really easy to defend against an aggro deck when all you need to do is counter removal, I'm not a huge fan of shifting into that gear.  It's a 5 turn clock and if they somehow draw more removal then you do counters you lose.  While this is very unlikely, I feel no need to take a gamble when I could create a game state that I cannot possibly lose out of.  

I really haven't had a problem with wasteland.  With 5 basic Islands, I'm usually glad that my opponent doesn't have colored mana available, as it will often sit on the board until it's no longer a good idea to use.  In nearly all of my matches I've needed to deal with null rod or dampening matrix as well.  Control Slaver is a powerful, resiliant deck that can draw enough cards to get out of some really tough spots.
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« Reply #24 on: March 31, 2004, 02:35:15 pm »

Several comments have been made in the Budget Forum regarding alternate ways of dumping artifacts into your graveyard/tutoring.  Would either [card]Gamble[/card] or [card]Intuition[/card] be viable in Control Slavery?  I'm testing out Gamble right now and I will use it to search for lands/moxen if I need it, Goblin Welder if I don't have one in hand already or Pentavus/Angel/Mindslaver if I do.  While there is a significant risk of discarding a card that you want to keep, you should be able to minimize the risk with correct usage.  I realize that it has been used by a few people in Stax in the past and I was wondering why neither card has been tested so far.
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« Reply #25 on: March 31, 2004, 02:41:27 pm »

It's because Gamble is a bad card.  

Not only do you have no control over what you discard, but it's card disadvantage.  Besides, how can you even think of adding Gamble into a deck that doesn't even have 4 Brainstorm?
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« Reply #26 on: March 31, 2004, 03:21:02 pm »

Quote from: Lockdown
I realize that it has been used by a few people in Stax in the past and I was wondering why neither card has been tested so far.


People who did that were also trying to fit the Bazaar / Squee engine in $T4KS, so It's not a good argument. Gamble does not fit in Welder decks for a simple reason : it's a bad card.
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« Reply #27 on: March 31, 2004, 03:48:22 pm »

it was good in Welder MUD when you were quite capable of emptying your hand and not having much gas to back it up.  In those scenerios, it was just another tinker-->jar.
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« Reply #28 on: March 31, 2004, 08:11:58 pm »

Is Gamble a card just for putting an artifact from the library into the graveyard? Then, perhaps Entomb would be a better card for that purpose.
Still, I’m not convinced that this is the direction in which the deck could be taken. A card that buries an artifact should be useful only when there is already an active Welder in play. And oftentimes when that is the case, the deck has already been able to pitch a useful artifact with Thirst. I think it is too situational overall.
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« Reply #29 on: April 03, 2004, 10:02:30 am »

After playing quite a bit with control slaver, I don't have too many complaints.  I would mention that the deck sometimes feels like it needs 4 more counters, to be on par with tog in terms of control elements.  The sideboard R.E.B.s make up for this in some respect, but in a heavy control/combo meta duress may be solid enough to add to the main deck.  

If you want to have a card to put more artifacts in the yard, Fact of Fiction has be excellent for me.  It is like a uber thirst for knowledge.  

I don't think gamble or intuition are really the way the deck wants to head.  If you wanted to get some kind of janky engine going, perhaps cram bazaar/squee in there.  Squee has good synergy with Thirst.  Of course, I feel that the maindeck is so tight that I personally can't see changing things that much.
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