[Deck Discussion] - Hesitant Landstill

[hippiedance]

I have been toying with this deck for a couple days now. It is basically Landstill with some additions, the largest being MD 4 hesitations as another way to stop the opponent: leading to the opponent having to waste a crucial spell rather than having it resolve and you drawing 3 cards...

Deck:

MANA:
3x Mountain
4x Island
4x Volcanic Island
1x Strip mine
3x Wasteland
3x Mishra's Factory
4x Fairie Conclave

ARTIFACT:
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Ruby
1x Black Lotus
3x Nevinrayll's Disc

DRAW/STALL ENGINE
1x Ancestral Recall
4x Standstill
4x Hesitation

SPELLS:
1x Time Walk
4x Mana Drain
4x Force of Will
3x Misdirection
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Fire/Ice
3x Stifle
1x Brainstorm

=60 cards total.

SIDEBOARD:
4x Tormod's Crypt (Just for WGD)
2x Pyroblast
2x Hydroblast
2x Brainstorm
1x Nevinrayll's disc

=11 cards SB (NEEDS HELP )

The hesitations really give the deck a boost, opponents have to waste spells which gives you more time to attack with ART lands. Allthough replacing brainstorm can slow this deck down.

Basically i am looking for some input on why hesitation was lookedover in the first place. To me it seems that in this deck it has quite the home. Also some help in the sideboard... i cant seem to find cards which fit into the deck and also cards to replace when sideboarding.

Back when Counterpost was around i liked the design because while locking everything down you relied on lands which were uncounterable (of course now there is stifle). When Stronghold came out i unsuccessfully tried to incorporate hesitation and a couple of the other new counter cards into a better and more advanced Counterpost, but that didnt hold up for long. (It is amazing how quickly things change in a matter of years in MTG these days.)

Any help or discussion will be appreciated...

[Raven Fire]

My first impression is that Standstill is a superior card (IMHO, drawing 3 is better than countering 1 spell) and that Hesitation is somewhat redundant.  It may make some match-ups that are already favorable ones a little better, but will probably not be all that helpful against currently poor match-ups.

[dicemanx]

Hesitation was not looked over, it was deemed to be way too poor to include. With Hesitation, you are essentially trading a counterspell for their worst card. Not only that, but once Hesitation comes down, you cannot cast any spells yourself. Yes, that's the idea behind the deck, but sometimes Standstill itself is not very good because the opponent puts down threats that you must deal with first. Having 4 such cards is acceptable, because the return on each Standstill is high. Pumping that number to 8 by adding Hesitations is flirting with danger, especially since Hesitation doesn't generate a strong enough effect.

So why not stay more flexible and run Counterspells or Mana Leaks instead of Hesitations?

[mtgmooner]

I have to agree...while hesitation is a card that can be valuable, it is FAR to situational to be a mainstay staple in a deck like Landstill.  Playing cards like stnadstill and hesitation are skilled choics to begin with, and I just dont see hesitation ever providing a benefit worth slowing yourself down in the early game when you would be much better off with a standstill OR an additional counter.  I prefer mana leak myself in the place of the hesitations.  Who is honestly going to play a bomb from their hand to get the hesitation off the board?  Its a different situation then plying thorugh a standstill and taking the chance that your opponent doesnt draw a thing...

[bebe]

In fact we tried Hesitation in Landstill very on. Ray and I began toying with the deck at about the same time Richard was beginning to perfect his build. This is way back in BD days. I played Hesitation in two tournaments and quickly discovered its limitations. Although it looks like a decent fit in the deck, a complement of tradiional counters works much better. I would rather play Voidmages than Hesitation ( another card we tested and dropped). Hesitation prevents you from playing out your burn and disks and that is the heart of the deck. Dicemanx's assessment is right on the money.

[hippiedance]

thanks for your input:


i understand that hesitation is a weak choice for the reason that it is making an opponent waste a relativly weak card to remove it but i also thought the idea behind standstill was to generate an evironment in which an opponent becomes stalled so that constant attacks can be made.

I think that with the addition of hesitation instead of counterspells of more traditional means is better. Not only is hesitation making them waste a spell to stop damage but it is also backed by almost all pitch counters meaning that they waste a force bait and then play the real spell they wanted resolved....

for some reason, maybe i am overlooking something, i think it is much better than a mana leak: which is at best a mediocre draw versus a hesitation with a faerie and/or factory in play.

[Jacob Orlove]

Hesitation will end up just countering Moxen. It's not worth it.

[SiRlAnDsAlOt]

First of all landstill has to have 4 factories. It is your most reliable kill.Second you dont need 3 mountains, you should only need 1 and that is only if you see alot of B2B and bloodmooons in your meta. also you should cut the brainstorm it is a good card but not just a single one, you should cut it for a fourth fire and ice.Fire and ice is key to early game survival, which landstill unfortunately needs all the help it can get.also cut the hesitations for mana leakAnd cut one misD for a nevs disk(believe me, the 4th helps out a whole lot).Besides that the deck looks pretty solid. Here is my landstill that i went 3-3-0 at waterbury with.

1 library of alexandria
1 lotus
2 moxen
4 conclaves
4 factories
4 island
4volcanic
4 wastes
1 strip
2 polluted delta

4 mana drain
4 fow
4 mana leak
4 fire ice
4 nevs disk
2 stifle
1 teferis response
1 recall
1 time walk
4 lightning bolt
4 standstill

[Jujuboy]

I've got a newbie question, not 100% on topic but better than a new thread. How do-able is un-powered Landstill? I’ve read the archived primer but it doesn’t touch on budget play.

It looks to me like a huge chunk of the deck is very budget friendly, and I’d think Mana Leak and/or Counterspell would be serviceable replacement for Mana Drain but I can't think of any reasonable substitutes for the Lotus and Mox (petal??). How crippling would the loss of all that acceleration be? Are we talking completely unplayable or would I still have a functional deck for a somewhat scrubish meta?

Think something like this:

Land: 27

4 Faerie Conclave
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
1 Stripmine
2 Fetch Lands
4 Volcanic Island (Budgetish anyway...)
5 Island
2 Dust Bowl
1 Petrified Field

Counter Magic: 14
4 FoW
4 Mana Leak
2 Misdirection
2 Stifle
2 Teferi's Response

Removal: 11
4 Fire/Ice
4 Lighting Bolt
3 Nevinyrral's Disk

Card Draw: 8
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm

Any thoughts?

[Raven Fire]

It looks to me like a huge chunk of the deck is very budget friendly, and I’d think Mana Leak and/or Counterspell would be serviceable replacement for Mana Drain but I can't think of any reasonable substitutes for the Lotus and Mox (petal??). How crippling would the loss of all that acceleration be? Are we talking completely unplayable or would I still have a functional deck for a somewhat scrubish meta?

Any thoughts?

If you don't have the Drains (but have most of the rest of the deck), I think you'd be better off playing one of the Gay decks.  IMHO, the Drains (and Power) are needed to accelerate out the Disks in Landstill.  Without those, you'll likely get run over.

[type1playa]

first, i have to disagree about the budget version of this deck.  it only runs three p9.  recall is the best card in magic so there's a blow.  time walk is great late game but early game is basically a cycler that says 'you have one more land drop this turn' which is still very good.  and the mox is a mox, only good in your opening hand. i have drains and they do make a difference. but it is still very possible to do very well with landstill running counterspells instead.  the deck only runs eight actual 'counter' spells.  and sometimes you just need to counter that 4 or 5 mana spell but you don't have a factory or a disk to waste that mana on, so essentially you've turned their spell into a lightning bolt at best!

next, it seems some fundamental rules are being broken here by some decklists.  IMHO you cannot run landstill without four of the following cards...

standstill
nev's disk
mishra's factory
fairy conclave
wasteland

standstill - no brainer, this is the closest to ancestral you can get.  i'm a firm believer that card advantage wins magic games, and standstill is card advantage.

nev's disk - i know some people run 3 disks and are successful but i feel disk is soo powerful and gamebreaking you have to run 4.

mishra's factory - like it was said above, your main kill condition and the best manland in magic.

fairy conclave - rounds out your kill conditions at 8.  thus allowing some of your manlands to die early if needed.

wasteland/strip mine/dust bowl - against powered decks landstill just isn't all that fast enough to keep up with the brokeness, so you sometimes have to play the land destruction game plan.  the five wastelands are so crucial i can't even stress enough.  i just started experimenting with dustbowl and my conclusion is that it wins me about 1 out of 5 games by itself.  with more than 25 land sources against a dually deck you will win if this hits early with counter back up... PERIOD.  YOU WILL WIN.

fire/ice and lightining bolt are also vital if you're playing the blue-red version of landstill.  tapping down a fatty on turn 2 while cycling a card is a good thing!

i agree with the above posts that hesitation doesn't have a spot in this deck.  to repeat what was said above.  it will counter one of your opponents otherwise 'dead' cards.  

for the top decklist i'd recommend...

- 4 hesitation
- 1 brainstorm
- 1 mox ruby

+ 1 nev's disk
+ 1 fire/ice
+ 1 mishra's factory
+ 1 wasteland
+ 2 of whatever you want that's good for your meta.  i run 2 powder kegs because i see a lot of cheap aggro over here. worst case scenario it kills a few moxes game 1.  

ok, now that i've written enough i have a quick question for anybody with experience with this deck.  my REBs aren't getting much play lately. there's not really a lot of blue going around right now, maybe a splash here and there but nothing worthy of 4 REBs, any ideas? and don't say chalice, i like crypt better. thanks! my current SB is...
3 maze if ith
4 tormod's crypt
4 REB
4 BEB

[Raven Fire]

my REBs aren't getting much play lately. there's not really a lot of blue going around right now, maybe a splash here and there but nothing worthy of 4 REBs, any ideas? and don't say chalice, i like crypt better. thanks! my current SB is...
3 maze if ith
4 tormod's crypt
4 REB
4 BEB

I'd board some Energy Fluxes and/or Rack and Ruins if your environment has enough artifacts to make it worth while.

[type1playa]

yeah, i was soo close to siding in energy fluxes last weekend but wasn't too sure if i'd see a lot of brown in decks, that's pretty uncommon here.  but the rack and ruins would probably get a little action at worst.  i'll try that out next week.  i was so desperate looking for anything i almost tried out price of progress despite it's horrendous synergy with my deck.  it's just that sometimes you have to burn some people out, and there's not many cards that do around 10 damage for 2 land at instant speed in control decks!  landstill is soo good.