yeah, so in case people are still playing red in tog

[jpmeyer]

How INSANE is that in Tog!  It's like an instant-speed Deed that maintains the potential damage from your cards in hand since it can target the opponent.

[Jhaggs]

Not a bad card at all.  My initial thoughts would be as a sideboard card considering it is an instant.

....maybe a possible madness card?

[Dr. Sylvan]

***SPEAK NOW UNTO THE TMD ORACLE***

How INSANE is that in Tog!  It's like an instant-speed Deed that maintains the potential damage from your cards in hand since it can target the opponent.

TMD ORACLE: "Stormbind is awesome. The guy who played that should have won the tourney by default just for being cooler than the rest of you."
------------------------------------------------------
More seriously...

First: Deed is Prison insurance. Firestorm is not.

Second: By investing damage in the opponent's creatures (far from efficiently I might add, since doubltess there's one much larger than the others in any deck Tog wasn't already beating), you're not actually preserving damage from your cards-in-hand.

Third: You can't target less than X targets. Meaning if someone has an Arrogant Wurm and a 6/6 Wurm token, you can't kill any of them without targeting yourself or your Tog (plus your opponent), and there it's impossible to kill the 6/6.

Anyone have counterpoints?

[jpmeyer]

You preserve damage since by targetting your opponent, you get to spend say, 4 cards for 3 damage so you're only losing a single point.

[mouth]

I think, more importantly, that this card demolishes the very common "3 Jackal Pup's on turn 2" draw that Sligh and R/G get so often.

[Eastman]

Boy that's really terrible.

[Smash]

Might be Sbable vs FCG and crew.

[Androstanolone]

yeah, eastman said it.  

You dump your whole hand to kill some weenies... who's more comfy TDing?  The card is net card disadvantage, against a deck that is already running a higher threat density.  The only time the speed of firestorm is needed is if they go off, and that's just not happening against tog.  

If you want SB instant speed mass weenie kill, starstorm is better.  Tog doesn't need blazing speed at the cost of card disadvantage, because Tog is good.  You should be able to see what they're playing and wish for *storm in plenty of time to go 3 to 1.  That leaves them TDing and you with a handful of answers.  

The other point I was going to make has already been made, that you have to target X, which means the card is not so friendly and versatile against anything but weenie hordes.  

Firestorm SBed in tog = nt.



- Androstan

[Mixing Mike]

Why doesn't one just play a 'Tog and win?  Isn't the strongest point of a Tog is that after turn 3 vs aggro decks, your graveyard is fat enough to start ignoring most of the table threats and counter the stuff 'Tog can't seal with by itself.  Well, I always thought it was.

[Dr. Sylvan]

You preserve damage since by targetting your opponent, you get to spend say, 4 cards for 3 damage so you're only losing a single point.

JP, was this a more serious thread than I took it to be? What matchups has this tested well against? The only theory I'm able to contrive to encourage running Firestorm is that it's less mana than Deed for potential FCG-hosing, but since it wouldn't be maindeck, Wish + R isn't that much better, and it still is narrowly tailored to beat creatures where another card could be more flexible.

I just don't get it.

[Toad]

<3 jpmeyer

[jpmeyer]

OK, I'm cleaning this thread up because I have no idea why the hell people are talking about siding this card in against Keeper.

The point of this card is against decks like FCG, TnT, and Fish.  The point of it against the first two decks is because those decks are quite fast so it's significantly easier to spend 3+1 mana (which you can often spend all at once) to sweep the board than to speend 3+3 or 3+4 (if you're getting Rack and Ruin or Starstorm.)  Fish might not be as fast, but it's a lot easier for them to win a counter war a 4cc card than it is to win over a 1cc card.

The reason that an instant-speed Wrath is still good against a deck like FCG is because while FCG has a high threat density, if you sweep the board they will probably have to chump Tog to resist dying.  If you don't sweep, they can often chump to buy enough time to kill you with Siege-Gang Commander.

This card obviously can't replace Deed, but it is the best instant-speed sweeper that I can think of.

[Androstanolone]

I guess I have to return to quality posts now.  

If I were playing fish, I would let the damn firestorm resolve, gain card advantage, let you empty your hand, more weenies to come, and win the counterwar on "X important spell that may or may not be tog".  Lose card advantage against another pre-emptive blue based control deck = gfg gtfo.  Actually, with your hand empty, there may not even be a counter war.  

This card obviously can't replace Deed, but it is the best instant-speed sweeper that I can think of.

think harder.  starstorm???  How about not pitch my hand to deal with your threats? If you can't maintain control long enough to wish and cast starstorm, you have other problems.  Firestorm would be an act of desperation, you'd have to be on the verge of losing to need firestorm, in which case the problem isn't firestorm vs. starstorm.

Not to mention that firestorm isn't sekzi.  



- Androstan

[Dr. Sylvan]

A brief search has helped me see that there's no comparably-costed card for FCG-kill ([card]Stench of Decay[/card] and [card]Holy Light[/card] both cost more and only do -1/-1; the 2-to-all creature hitters are sorceries). I'm not really seeing the TnT and Fish angle, though.

Smmenen's TnT-vs-Tog article, IIRC, made it look like them having two guys on the table was a rare occurrence which generally meant you were dead already. Oxidize already has you covered for dealing with a loner, and since my experience with Tog leads me to believe you can't recover from huge discards by topdecking, I don't see the usefulness of pitching your hand to deal with just one more guy. (Heaven help you if they have three active arti-fat on the table; then you've definitely lost barring a miracle Deed.)

For Fish, all their guys are just so small. The Firestorm would be massively overdoing it, and it would be even harder to recover against them due to their draw power. Let's say they've got two guys and a manland coming at you. The Firestorm plan involves using four cards to deal with these three threats (and possibly a Curiosity). When are there three expendable cards in a Hulk hand at that point? I'd rather wait a turn longer and go for the Deed, or use the Wish to get an REB out of the board to kill the Curious one, sucking up a few points. If you're lucky, they'll blow through a Spiketail and a Daze stopping the REB, granting you more time. Time during which you can use your not-discarded-to-Firestorm hand to recover.

Androstan: Starstorm's problem is that it is both expensive and double-red. If JP wanted more 4+ cc removal, that would be easy. He's trying a 1-cc solution.

<3 jpmeyer

There shall never be doubt of the <3ing for JP, only of the <3ing for Firestorm.

[Kowal]

If I were playing fish, I would let the damn firestorm resolve, gain card advantage, let you empty your hand, more weenies to come, and win the counterwar on "X important spell that may or may not be tog". Lose card advantage against another pre-emptive blue based control deck = gfg gtfo. Actually, with your hand empty, there may not even be a counter war.

This card obviously can't replace Deed, but it is the best instant-speed sweeper that I can think of.

think harder. starstorm??? How about not pitch my hand to deal with your threats? If you can't maintain control long enough to wish and cast starstorm, you have other problems. Firestorm would be an act of desperation, you'd have to be on the verge of losing to need firestorm, in which case the problem isn't firestorm vs. starstorm.

I have to agree with everything that guy just said.  Firestorm is seriously wicked bad.  When I saw this thread I was certain you posted this as a joke, similar to CrazyCarl convincing people that Revenge was 2004's svg new tech.

[jpmeyer]

What's the big deal with having to pitch your hand to deal with threats?  Tog is always doing that.  It has no problem doing that because it has a nice stream of cards.  That's like half of how you beat TnT.

[mouth]

Fish might not be as fast, but it's a lot easier for them to win a counter war a 4cc card than it is to win over a 1cc card.

The discard is an additional cost to play Firestorm, so if you hafta pitch most of your hand the ensuing counter war may not be too difficult for Fish. Especially if Firestorm has to function as an "oh shit" button in the earlier game before your hand and mana base are developed.

xero:

1. Deed away nonland permanents
2. Draw cards
3. Psychatog
4. Berserk

jpmeyer:

Or you can just remove step one.

Firestorm would be great against RDW in 1.x, except that Weatherlight isn't legal. Type 1 Tog, otoh, has the benefit of being fucking broken by comparison. If you really hate people chumping your T0G with weenies, sb a Wonder I say.

[Mixing Mike]

Scrying does a lot more than Firestorm does.

Firestorm for 4
- Lose 5 cards overall, and do a little bit of 'cleanup'  +2.5 'Tog power.
- Total gain on the play (just targetting creatures): -1 cards

Scrying for 4
- Lose 4 cards forever, get 4 cooler ones.  + 6.5 'Tog power.
- Total gain on the play: +3 cards

I based that on the whole card advantage thing, and 'Tog power.  Life points are just about a useless number anyways.  Only good for Mana Crypt deaths and that whole FoW/Fetchland thing at 1 life.

Look at all the people who play Scrying.  That one comparison just tells me that I'd rather be the beatdown and race FCG.  I guess you can raise the CC as an arguement for the Scrying vs. Firestorm thing, but Firestorm is a dead target in a lot more matches than Scrying is.  But whatever, I don't see the need to wish for Firestorm over Berserk anyways.  Why kill 'em when you can run over 'em?

[EDIT]: I'll play $5 to anyone who teaches me me how to type.  BTW, mouth said it well by quoting 'the pollulted one' himself.

[Androstanolone]

What's the big deal with having to pitch your hand to deal with threats? Tog is always doing that. It has no problem doing that because it has a nice stream of cards. That's like half of how you beat TnT.

usually tog doesn't just pitch everything to beat TNT, they try to actually cast some spells too, then attack, wish for zerk, remove the yard, and trample over whatever's in the way to win.    

sick of weenies chump blocking your tog...  sb wonder....  is it that hard to just zerk the damn thing and have it done with?  sheesh.  


- Androstan

[jpmeyer]

FCG is at least a turn faster than Tog.  Tog can't kill before turn 4 any more now that Gush is restricted (barring a Time Walk, of course,) and FCG has both a turn 2 combo kill and a turn 3 regular kill with Lackey.

That said, Food Chain is easy enough to Drain, but there are some huge Piledriver draws that scare me, and you can't Wish for BEB to stop him.

[Dr. Sylvan]

What's the big deal with having to pitch your hand to deal with threats?  Tog is always doing that.  It has no problem doing that because it has a nice stream of cards.  That's like half of how you beat TnT.

My points are that Hulk (a) won't have the spare cards to destroy TnT threats (partly due to the other pitching for FoW); (b) might have to target himself to satisfy the X, nulling most benefit from the removal; (c) is pitching too many cards for this narrow solution, where most of the time another Wished removal card (Oxidize) will be as good.

It does look like a solution to FCG, and if that became a more prominent deck, I would consider this a more generally viable SB card.

[Mixing Mike]

Besides the fact that FCG isn't a common sight, it's not like you need to win every game/matchup to win a tourny.  You can't try to perfect decklists to beat every deck and the format, it's just not gonna happen, sans Keeper.

[kl0wn]

What in the holy hell is FCG?

[Dr. Sylvan]

What in the holy hell is FCG?

Food Chain Goblins

[kirdape3]

I think JP's going off this fundamental premise.

Tog is modern Necropotence.

Anyone ever remember how Necro would play?  Disrupt disrupt disrupt Necro draw a lot more disruption win.  That's how Tog goes, only 'Necro' is replaced with Intuition/AK.  Remember how good Firestorm was in original Necro?  That's what he's going for.

Oh, and Keeper is no longer the best deck in the format.  We're talking about it - does Tog really have a bad matchup against a deck that doesn't autolose the rest of the field?  I can't think of one, really.  Wish for Berserk is really good.

[Dr. Sylvan]

I've been pretty confident that Hulk is the best deck for at least a few weeks (can't remember if I've really said so). February results also put Hulk at the top, barely over Rector, a deck which I treat as a quirk of Europe. As you put it, "Wish for Berserk is really good".

I see your analogy to Necro, but since Psychatog itself doesn't draw cards, Hulk isn't quite the same thing. By pitching your hand you're losing some of the draw power (unless you maindeck Deep Analysis). Also, Necro was contending with much more of a creature environment than modern Type One. So I'm highly skeptical of Firestorm except as a last-ditch effort against Goblins, until proven otherwise.

One of the cards I've stumbled into remembering as a result of this thread is Contagion. Has this been considered an alternative? I'd say it's certainly better than Firestorm vs. Fish, though not as deadly for FCG. Has that been considered, particularly for BUG builds?

[jazzykat]

I think it is a jazzy idea. Discard cards to kill off a few offending dorks and just make sure your opponent gets hit as well. Tog can kill any remaining bystanders or just Zerk by.

A pirate said it best: Dar be TECH!

[jpmeyer]

Contagion would be fresh if the deck actually had black cards.

[Androstanolone]

Against Aggro specifically, the Tog player casts Berserk over the weenie army for the win (some Tog players lose sight of this and mis-assignment of role = game loss)

don't lose sight jp

[Jacob Orlove]

FCG is at least a turn faster than Tog.

He's not losing sight of his role. Against FCG, and, to a certain extent, Fish, Tog has to play as a control deck with a 1-turn kill. That's why Firestorm is worth considering.