More fun with Humility

[Kowal]

I've been having this argument over what happens in this scenerio with Orlove for quite some time.  Truth be told, neither one of us has any friggen idea what the outcome is.  I'm going to email this to Rune when I'm not lazy anymore, but if any of you rules gurus want to give this one a shot, feel free.

The scenerio is thus.  I have for some ungodly reason managed to put Opalescence, Humility, Pandemonium, and Day of the Dragons in my graveyard when I cast Replenish.  

Same scenerio, this time everything except the Day.  After all effects are applied, I hardcast Day of the Dragons.

What if there are multiples of given cards in this scenerio?

Is there any way to not only trigger enough damage to kill your opponent this way, but stop some sort of goofy ass loop that might occur so all the damage can resolve?

Am I going to hell?

[Lockdown]

Interestingly enough, Crystal Keep has a ruling for this situation:

It's found in the text of Opalescense

# If one Opalescence and Humility are in play, then Opalescence turns Humility into a 4/4 creature, then Humility turns itself into a 1/1 creature with no abilities. Yes, this is counter-intuitive since Humility no longer has the ability to remove abilities, but this is the outcome. The timing rules for the interaction of continuous effects say you apply them in this order and you never loop back to see if that application would change things. [D'Angelo 1999/05/01] If new creatures or enchantments come into play, you apply Opalescence and Humility in order, so they come into play as 1/1 with no abilities. [D'Angelo 1999/07/27] See Rule 418.5 for the rules.
# If Humility is in play with more than one Opalescence, then you apply the Opalescence effects in order, then apply Humility last. So all enchantments (including all of the Opalescences) end up being 1/1 creatures with no abilities. [WotC Rules Team 2003/09/01] See Rule 418.5.
# Does not animate itself. But can be animated by another Opalescence. [DeLaney 1999/06/08]

The part I'm unsure of is the Pandemonium bit.  Here's some more rules text that might help:

#  418.2 - Continuous effects that modify characteristics of permanents do so simultaneously with the permanent coming into play. They don't wait until the permanent is in play and then change it. Because such effects apply as the permanent comes into play, apply them before determining whether the permanent will cause an ability to trigger when it comes into play. [CompRules 2003/07/01]

#  418.4a - A continuous effect generated by a static ability isn't "locked in"; it applies at any given moment to whatever its text indicates. [CompRules 2003/07/01]
418.4b - The effect applies at all times that the permanent generating it is in play or the object generating it is in the appropriate zone.

But since they all come into play simultaneously, the Humility/Opalescence abilities shouldn't affect the other enchantments until they're all in play, in which case it would be too late to trigger Pandemonium.  The second scenario does trigger Pandemonium though.  I've bolded the key phrases in the rules text for ease of reading.  This is probably the most interesting/evil question I've seen in a long time...

[Jebus]

Actually, all of them comming into play at the same time will trigger Pandemonium.

[Jacob Orlove]

Actually, all of them comming into play at the same time will trigger Pandemonium.

Why not Angelic Chorus, then?

[Jebus]

Actually, all of them comming into play at the same time will trigger Pandemonium.

Why not Angelic Chorus, then?

Oh wait, I was totally thinking about this wrong.

I forgot Pandemonium would lose it's ability.

It's late, I apologize.

[Lockdown]

Assume that you didn't have Humility in your graveyard when you replenished though...  I still don't see why Pandemonium would trigger.  I'd think that Pandemonium is only triggered when Pandemonium is in play and the creatures are coming into play.  And I'd think that the continuous effect of Opalescence would only apply if Opalescence was already in play.  So if they all come into play in the same time, how would that work?  It'd seem to me that:
1) They'd come into play as enchantments, and then Opalescence would make them all creatures once Opalescence was in play,
2) Even if they were creatures, they wouldn't trigger Pandemonium since the creatures and Pandemonium hit play at the same time.

#  410.10b - Continuous effects that modify characteristics of a permanent do so the moment the permanent is in play (and not before then). The permanent is never in play with its unmodified characteristics. Continuous effects don't apply before the permanent is in play, however (see Rule 410.10e). [CompRules 2003/07/01]

#  418.2 - Continuous effects that modify characteristics of permanents do so simultaneously with the permanent coming into play. They don't wait until the permanent is in play and then change it. Because such effects apply as the permanent comes into play, apply them before determining whether the permanent will cause an ability to trigger when it comes into play. [CompRules 2003/07/01]

So where is the gap in my logic?  I assume there is one since Jebus tends to be right about these kind of things.  I agree that if Opalescence and Pandemonium were already in play, playing a Replenish would trigger the Pandemonium, but it doesn't seem that Opalescence would do anything as it came into play.  The continuous effect should only apply after all the enchantments are in play, after which it's to late for Pandemonium.[/quote]

[Lockdown]

Oh... wait... is this why?

#  418.5a - The values of an object's characteristics are determined by starting with the actual object, then applying continuous effects in a series of layers in the following order: (1) copy effects (see Rule 503, "Copying Object"), (2) control-changing effects, (3) text-changing effects, (4) type-, subtype-, and supertype-changing effects, (5) all other continuous effects, except those that change power or toughness, and (6) power- or toughness-changing effects. Inside each layer, apply effects from characteristic-setting abilities first, then effects from all other abilities. For power- or toughness-changing effects, apply changes from counters after changes from characteristic setting abilities. See also the rules for timestamp order and dependency (Rule 418.5b through Rule 418.5g). [CompRules 2003/10/01]
# 418.5b - If an effect other than a type-, subtype-, and supertype-changing effect should be applied in different layers, the parts of the effect each apply in their appropriate layers. If a type-, subtype-, and supertype-changing effect should be applied in different layers, all are applied only in layer four (type-, subtype- and supertype changing effects). [CompRules 2003/12/01]
# 418.5c - An effect is said to "depend on" another if (a) it is applied in the same layer as the other effect (see rule 418.5a) and (b) applying the other would change the text or the existence of the first effect, what it applies to, or what it does to any of the things it applies to. Otherwise, the effect is considered to be independent of the other effect. [CompRules 2003/12/01]
# 418.5d - Whenever one effect depends on another, the independent one is applied first. If several dependent effects form a loop, or if none depends on another, they're applied in "timestamp order." [CompRules 2003/07/01]
# 418.5e - An object's timestamp is the time it entered the zone it's currently in, with three exceptions: (1) If two or more objects enter a zone (or zones) simultaneously, the active player determines their timestamp order at the time they enter that zone. (2) Whenever a local enchantment or Equipment becomes attached to a permanent, the enchantment or Equipment receives a new timestamp. (3) Permanents that phase in keep the same timestamps they had when they phased out. [CompRules 2003/10/01]

I think that does explain my question.  But if there's some other rules text that I haven't seen that applies, please post it.

[Jebus]

Maybe this will help you.

410.10b Continuous effects that modify characteristics of a permanent do so the moment the permanent is in play (and not before then). The permanent is never in play with its unmodified characteristics. Continuous effects don’t apply before the permanent is in play, however (see rule 410.10e).
Example: If an effect reads “All lands are creatures” and a land card is played, the effect makes the land card into a creature the moment it enters play, so it would trigger abilities that trigger when a creature comes into play. Conversely, if an effect reads “All creatures lose all abilities” and a creature card with a comes-into-play triggered ability enters play, that effect will cause it to lose its abilities the moment it enters play, so the comes-into-play ability won’t trigger.

THe main thing is, the Pandemonium will see itself and the other enchantments comming into play as creatures.  Therefore, it will trigger.

[Lockdown]

That was part of what was confusing me.  How does Pandemonium "see" itself coming into play without it already being IN play?  And same with Opalescence... How are they all creatures while Opalescence is coming into play?  So yes, I see that Opalescence, assuming it's in play, makes all other enchantments come into play as creatures, triggering Pandemonium, the issue for me is when they come into play at the same time.  I would think that once they were all made creatures at the end, the window for triggering Pandemonium would be past.

[Jebus]

That was part of what was confusing me.  How does Pandemonium "see" itself coming into play without it already being IN play?  And same with Opalescence... How are they all creatures while Opalescence is coming into play?  So yes, I see that Opalescence, assuming it's in play, makes all other enchantments come into play as creatures, triggering Pandemonium, the issue for me is when they come into play at the same time.  I would think that once they were all made creatures at the end, the window for triggering Pandemonium would be past.

I'm pretty sure you have the continuous effect part figured out.  There are more rules I could quote about that, but I don't think it will be needed.

So, it seems that your confusion is with them seeing the objects they came into play with, and triggering.

Perhaps this will shed some light.

410.10a Comes-into-play abilities trigger when a permanent enters the in-play zone. These are written, “When [this card] comes into play, . . . “ or “Whenever a [type] comes into play, . . .”  Each time an event puts one or more permanents into play, all permanents in play (including the newcomers) are checked for any comes-into-play triggers that match the event.

Some more examples perhaps.

Wretched Anurid is not a good creature to have in your graveyard when you play Patriarch's Bidding and call zombies.

All zombies are going to come back into play from the graveyard, as well as creature types called by the other player.  They all come into play at the same time.  Then, you check to see what triggered, including things that just came into play.  Wretched Anurid's triggered ability will see all the other creatures that came into play with it.  And you'll lose life for each other creature.

[DEA]

ok, the humility/opalescence one is quite clear

am i right in saying that even though the enchantments come into play as 1/1 creatures with no special abilities, the pandemonium will trigger for ONE damage per enchantment replenished? or does not trigger at all? or even does the full amount?

woo, we need jaap here

[Lockdown]

I forgot Pandemonium would lose it's ability.

According to Jebus, Pandemonium would be a 1/1 without abilities as well, so no it wouldn't trigger.

[Jebus]

I forgot Pandemonium would lose it's ability.

According to Jebus, Pandemonium would be a 1/1 without abilities as well, so no it wouldn't trigger.

Correct.

They have no abilities when they enter play, so there is nothing to trigger.

[Jaapmans]

woo, we need jaap here

Give me some time and I'll spell it all out for you

Jaap (L4)

[Gabethebabe]

The rule that Lockdown quotes is the one that counts:

418.5a The values of an object’s characteristics are determined by starting with the actual object, then applying continuous effects in a series of layers in the following order:
(1) copy effects (see rule 503, “Copying Objects”),
(2) control-changing effects,
(3) text-changing effects,
(4) type-, subtype-, and supertype-changing effects,
(5) all other continuous effects, except those that change power or toughness, and
(6) power- or toughness-changing effects.(....)

Opalescence is type 4. Humility is type 5. When the enchantments enter play, first the effect of Opalescence applies, making Humility, Pandemonium, Day of the Dragons and all other global enchantment a creature. After that Humility turns all these creatures in 1/1 without ability, including itself.

That´s it. All the nice stuff that comes into play, is a lousy 1/1 without abilities and none of the triggered effects will trigger. See also 418.2

418.2. Continuous effects that modify characteristics of permanents do so simultaneously with the permanent coming into play. They don’t wait until the permanent is in play and then change it. Because such effects apply as the permanent comes into play, apply them before determining whether the permanent will cause an ability to trigger when it comes into play.

[DEA]

printed for reference

[mouth]

1) You're left with an Opalescence and 3 1/1 creatures that are also enchantments.

2) This is the more interesting scenario. You currently have in play an Opalescence and 2 1/1 creatures that are also enchantments (Humility and Pandemonium.) Day of the Dragon's CIP trigger then removes itself, Humility and Pandemonium from the game, after being affected by Opalescence of course. This scenario would normally create an "infinite" loop, if Humility weren't one of the cards coming back in. However, it basically ends the same way that #1 does.

(Unless the Opalescence's static ability is added in a seperate layer for some reason, but I don't think it is, anyone know this for sure? Am I totally wrong and Humilty still affects the DotD?)

3) I don't think multiples of anything create any odd scenarios. Day of the Dragons and Pandemonium can effectively be any enchantments - their presence isn't important because neither of their triggers ever go on the stack. Multiple Opalescence's used to mess things up, but I think that's all fixed, even though I did hear something to the contrary, somewhere. Multiple Humility's shouldn't do anything tricksy either, because 1 is all you need to stop the triggers.

4) If you want to kill somebody with this, I'd suggest using only Opalescence, Pandemonium and Day of the Dragons. When they come into play, you get an Opalescence and a Pandemonium and a DotD that are both creatures and enchantments, and you get 3 triggers on the stack: Pandemonium triggering on itself CIPT, Pandemonium triggering on DoTD CIPT and the DotD CIPT itself. Stack the two Pandemonium triggers above the DotD trigger, let the damage resolve, and finally let the DotD trigger resolve. The DotD and Pandemonium leave play, and the DotD LPT goes on the stack (after putting 2 5/5 flying Dragon's into play, of course). Repeat.

5) Meh.

[Jebus]

2) This is the more interesting scenario. You currently have in play an Opalescence and 2 1/1 creatures that are also enchantments (Humility and Pandemonium.) Day of the Dragon's CIP trigger then removes itself, Humility and Pandemonium from the game, after being affected by Opalescence of course. This scenario would normally create an "infinite" loop, if Humility weren't one of the cards coming back in. However, it basically ends the same way that #1 does.

The DotD won't have a comes into play ability to trigger.

[mouth]

I was under the impression that once Humility affected itself, it would stop affecting any new creature that entered play, because it loses it's own ability. Or no?

[Edit]: Crap, nevermind.

[Jebus]

I was under the impression that once Humility affected itself, it would stop affecting any new creature that entered play, because it loses it's own ability. Or no?

No.  That would be far too intuitive.

[virtual]

I've read the above thread, and dug up yet another question on humility.  It isn't nearly as complex, etc, but I'd like to verify a few scenarios.

1.  I have 2 soldier decree tokens in play, and a coat of arms.  Then I cast humility.  What power/toughness are the tokens.

2.  I have 2 soldier decree tokens in play, and a humility.  Then I cast coat of arms.  What power/toughness are the tokens.

3.  I have a quirion dryad with 2 counters on it.  Then I cast humility.  What is it's power/toughness.  

4.  I have a decree token.  If I skullclamp it, does it die, or does it just stay as a 1/1.  (I believe it dies, but I was told otherwise, and wanted to verify)

5.  If I had a 2/2 equipped with clamp, then humility came into play.  When I unequip the clamp, does it temporarily become a 0/2, and if so is there a window where I could sac it as a 0/2 for something that used its toughness.  

Yea, sorry to rehash an old topic.  Thanks.
-Virtual

[Jebus]

1.  1/1.

2.  2/2.

3.  1/1.

4.  It becomes a 2/0 and is put into the graveyard as a state-based effect.

5.  No.  It will stay a 1/1.