Ravager Affinity

[GreenMycon]

Randomly I was goofing off at FNM earlier tonight, and I was having some fun playing t1 Stax against my friend's t2 ravager affinity. Much to my surprise, ravager affinity won unless stax played a turn 1 tangle wire/sphere of resistance. Realizing that this might possibly have potential in t1 where mana acceleration runs rampant.. I decided to whip up a deck and gold fish it a bit. Thus, I bring you t1 Ravager Affinity. I am aware that this deck was sort of mentioned in another thread, but no one really took much notice of it or had a very good deck build.

//NAME: Ravager Affinity
//Mana
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Seat of the Synod
3 Vault of Whispers
2 Glimmervoid
//0
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
//1
1 Sol Ring
1 Ancestral Recall
3 Pyrite Spellbomb
1 Mana Vault
4 Arcbound Worker
4 Skullclamp
4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Dark Ritual
//2
1 Grim Monolith
1 Timewalk
4 Arcbound Ravager
//3
1 Timetwister
1 Windfall
//4
4 Frogmite (2/2s for Free that draw you two cards are semi-mediocre)
//5
4 Thoughtcast (never more than 1)
//7
4 Myr Enforcer (Generally free)



So, I've been goldfishing this deck for a while (yes, I know, it proves nothing,) and I have been fairly surprised with its consistancy and speed. On average game consists of a turn 3 win (which is fairly mediocre) and you generally have enough fat on the table to give TnT and Big-O a run for their money. Skullclamp is easily the best card in the deck, and just simply abuses card draw to the fullest. If you have a standard hand, you should win on turn 3. The abysmal hands that I kept in gold fishing still won on turn 4, and the spectacular hands won on turn 2 (but that isn't very common.)

Quick goldfish game (With an Old Build which was much much slower than the above decklist):

  Aside:  Sorry for the format that this was typed up in, but I was mostly asleep at the time I typed it.

Opening Hand:
Thoughtcast
Pyrite Spellbomb
Skullclamp
Spellbomb
Myr Enforcer
Ancestral
GlimmerVoid


Ancestral --> Mox Emerald, Mana Crypt, Urza's Bauble

Play all 3

Drop Spellmombs and skullclamp

Turn two:
Draw seat

Play thoughtcast --> Brainstorm Ravager
Play Brainstorm --> Vault of Whispers, Arcbound Ravager, Arcbound worker
Put back ravager and whispers (ravager next draw)

Play worker, Ravager Enforcer

Turn 3:
Draw Ravager

Clamp worker and stick modular counter on ravager --> Draw Vault + Mox Sapphire
Play sapphire
Clamp Enforcer, Sac Enforcer to Ravager -->Thoughtcast and Pyrite Spellbomb
Play Thoughtcast-->Seat of the Synod + Urza's Bauble
Play Bauble, play ravager
Sac Spellbomb --> Myr Enforcer
Play Enforcer, pleay seat, clamp myr, sac to ravager --> Mox Pearl, Vault of Whispers
Play Pearl, sac bauble to other ravager, clamp ravager, sac to ravager -- > Vault of Whispers, Disciple of the Vault

You got unlucky this turn, you're a bit too short of mana to be able to play the disciple of the vault for the win.

Attack with ravager, Sac 2nd Bauble --> Frogmite

Turn 4:
Draw Glimmervoid
Play Vault, Play Disciple, Play Frogmite, sac spellbomb -->sol ring
play sol ring, play spellbomb

At this point it takes 3 seconds to win, but if you continue going off...

Sac Spellbomb --> Draw Lotus, play lotus
Clamp Frogmite, Sac to ravager --> Myr Enforcer
play it, sac to ravager --> Brainstorm, lotus petal
Play storm --> Keep Spellbomb, thoughtcast, Arcbound worker
Play Lotus petal, thoughtcast
Worker, clamp it --> Frogmite Skullclamp

And so on. You don't even need to attack with the ravager.


That hand was fairly good, however, the disciple was drawn 1 turn too late for the third turn kill. However, the deck had more than enough beef on the table to deal with any other aggro deck in the environment. Of course, by turn 4, it's more than plausible that the opponent has enough mana to activate mindslaver and just destroy your entire game plan.

So, give this deck a try, I think it has some potential.


--Jeff

[Vegeta2711]

Out of curiousity have you seen the PT Kobe decks? They generally are as fast or faster than the build you posted and they're only block.   You may want to rethink some of your card choices.

Spellbombs, Dark Ritual and Thoughtcast's aren't needed at all.

[GreenMycon]

I have taken a look at the Kobe decks and that is primarily what this is modeled after.  The thing is, the kobe decks don't win on turn 3 normally.. they win on turn 5 etc, and can sometimes pull of turn 4 wins.  This deck usually wins on turn 3 since I modded it, and is much faster than the block decks.  Also, the darkrituals are needed, as it allows you to just simply abuse skullclamp to the fullest. If skullclamp resolves, you're in very good shape.  I was able to hop on apprentice and get a few games for testing results.  I didn't log them or anything, but I can summerize them.

Also, the spellbombs are the one card that can be replaced with other options that fit into your meta.  I chose spellbomb because goblin welders + metalworkers are rather annoying.  And as for the thoughtcasts, they are literally Ancestral 2-5.  I would not drop them for anything as they're simply insane.
Match 1:  Random bad deck

Mulligan to 5:
Turn 1:
Empty hand of moxen, frogmite, timetwister, do it again
turn 2:
Play ravager and Disciple
turn 3: Win

Game 2:
Keep Hand, play 1st turn Myr, he scoops

Match 2: Bad control
turn 1: Play some frogmites, moxen, academy
turn 2: Play ravager, disciple, skullclamp
turn 3: Have just enough to deal him 21 damage

game 2:
Had to go

Match 3:
Hulk Smash:

He goes first: Land, go

I go: Land, Ancestral, Mox, Mox, Lotus,  Frogmite, Myr Enforcer, Myr Enforcer

turn 2: he does something

I then go: Disciple (he drains)
I go Ravager, Myr, Ravager

He timewalks and plays lotus + deed.  It goes to my upkeep, he blows it for 3.. I make my ravagers pump my enforcers and he scoops

Game 2:
him: Land go
me: Mana Crypt, Mox, Recall, Mox Skullclamp, Frogmite, Frogmite, Myr Enforcer, Pyrite Spellbomb

him: Timewalk, play wasteland go

Me: sac spellbomb to draw a card, draw arcbound worker, it resolves.  Skullclamp it, he concedes.


This deck is really fairly pretty good and should be tested a bit.

--Jeff

[Addolorisi]

Perhaps you could explain how playing against "Random scrub deck" and "Bad control" is any better than goldfishing?

[GreenMycon]

Perhaps you could explain how playing against "Random scrub deck" and "Bad control" is any better than goldfishing?

I didn't say it was.  Besides, that's close to the best play testing you can get off apprentice.  I was just showing that it generally wins turn 3. Which again, could have been shown in goldfishing results.  However, I decided to show games as it gave the opponent a chance to react to the deck, which, well, didn't really happen =(

--Jeff

[Methuselahn]

I haven't seen a T1 affinity deck that escapes the hate sufficiently.  This one will likely suffer the same problem.

Yawgmoth's Will combos nicely with Moxen, Arcbound Fiend and what your deck is trying to do.  Fit it in somewhere.

You have no enchantment removal or counterspells. Harsh.  How will you defend yourself and disrupt your opponent.

It's a good start, I think you need to flesh out the idea a bit more though.

[GreenMycon]

I haven't seen a T1 affinity deck that escapes the hate sufficiently. This one will likely suffer the same problem.

Undoubtedly.  I realize that hate is a big problem and all, and a resolved Null Rod or Damping Matrix is an instant scoop, as you have no way in hell to win.  Well, not fast enough, at least.  However, the deck can get around chalice of the void, sphere of resistance, and trinisphere, it just takes work.  If you're going first, that stuff isn't that much of an issue, as you just beat them down with out comboing out.  However, if they resolve a turn 1 Trinisphere and you're not going first, you have to scoop, you just can't recover quickly enough.  But as only workshop decks can abuse trinisphere to the fullest, and that is probably one of the decks worst matchups, running Mishra's Workshops in the sideboard (albeit silly) isn't *that* bad of an idea.  Then there is the vicious artifact hate in the form of Rack and Ruin and Oxidize.  This deck is barely hurt by that.  Rack will never resolve due to you having a ravager in play, and oxidize also will fizzle and just lead to a pumpped your ravager, etc.  So, again, the only severe hate is primarily run in workshop.dec, which you pretty much lose if they win the die roll.

Anyways, it is true that this deck will have problems against some hate, but most aggro decks do.  Big-O also has problems with the trinisphere, as does goblin foodchain, suicide black, etc.  So, I think this deck is on par with the other, strictly speaking, aggro decks in the format.  Eh, it's a minor detail that they're a few thousand dollars cheaper than this deck

Yawgmoth's Will combos nicely with Moxen, Arcbound Fiend and what your deck is trying to do. Fit it in somewhere.

So, I missed one utterly important card.  I compeltely forgot about it when I was building hte deck at 3:00 in the morning, and I was too busy comboing out in goldfish mode to actually stop and think about it.  Yes, the will should deffinately be included.  a spellbomb can be dropped for it.

You have no enchantment removal or counterspells. Harsh. How will you defend yourself and disrupt your opponent.

The deck is insanely fast with a huge assortment of must counters.  The only enchantments that I can think of (I'm probably fogetting several) are Moat (which isn't very common), and Humility (which won't come out fast enough), Blood Moon doesn't hurt you that much.  The Moat if it's common enough can be taken care of by running Ornithopter in the side.  Also, the bigger threats that the opponent can play such as Nevynrall's Disk, powder keg, and deed won't be so bad if you alter the mana base to include darksteel citadels (which should probably be moved in), and you throwin welding jars, which are probably better than pyrite spellbombs (I haven't done enough testing.)  

As for the larger threats which you scoop to, well, you scoop to them if they come out turn 1.   If they don't, then the only late game auto-win card is null rod, which even then isn't that bad if it comes out after turn 3 (you'll have enough affinity count and creatures to hopefully race them).

It's a good start, I think you need to flesh out the idea a bit more though.

Naturally, but no one is really discussing it or making suggestions, they are just stating stuff like, "it's weak," or , "it's slow."  Due to this, the development of the deck is being hindered when I think it could easily be built to be one of the top aggro decks in the format.  But, so far  I have built a pretty basic framework that wins very consistantly on turn 3, which, well, isn't too bad for a deck in early development.  

//NAME: Ravager Affinity (I altered it to reflect my discussion above.  However, I do not really like all the 3 ofs and 2ofs)
//Mana
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Seat of the Synod
2 Vault of Whispers
3 Glimmervoid
//0
3 Welding Jar
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
//1
1 Sol Ring
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mana Vault
4 Arcbound Worker
4 Skullclamp
4 Disciple of the Vault
3 Dark Ritual
//2
1 Timewalk
4 Arcbound Ravager
1 Grim Monolith
//3
1 Timetwister
1 Windfall
1 Yawgmoth's Will
//4
4 Frogmite
//5
4 Thoughtcast
//7
4 Myr Enforcer

[Matt]

Rack will never resolve due to have ravagers in play, and oxidize also will fizzle and just pump your ravager, etc.

What prevents them from just using the Racks or Oxidize on the Ravager itself?

[GreenMycon]

If they hit the ravager, you pump one of your other creatures up phenominally in response.

[wonkey_donkey]

Match 1:  Random bad deck

Mulligan to 5:
Turn 1:
Empty hand of moxen, frogmite, timetwister, do it again
turn 2:
Play ravager and Disciple
turn 3: Win

Match 2: Bad control
turn 1: Play some frogmites, moxen, academy
turn 2: Play ravager, disciple, skullclamp
turn 3: Have just enough to deal him 21 damage

Match 3: Hulk

I go: Land, Ancestral, Mox, Mox, Lotus,  Frogmite, Myr Enforcer, Myr Enforcer

turn 2: he does something

I then go: Disciple (he drains)
I go Ravager, Myr, Ravager

He timewalks and plays lotus + deed.  It goes to my upkeep, he blows it for 3.. I make my ravagers pump my enforcers and he scoops

Game 2:
him: Land go
me: Mana Crypt, Mox, Recall, Mox Skullclamp, Frogmite, Frogmite, Myr Enforcer, Pyrite Spellbomb

And if you don't draw power cards in your opening hand...?
Playing against Hulk, you seem to draw half the restricted cards in your deck. On top of that, quite a few decks will beat hulk if they can outdraw it with a turn 1 ancestral (and turn 1 2xmox+lotus) whilst they don't have the ability to FoW. This may have some potential, but until you have tested more games in which you get bog-standard opening hands, rather than clearly better than average ones, you shouldn't be surprised that we're being somewhat sceptical.

To help with the deck, I'd like to echo the sentiment that you don't have enough disruption in here. How would tangle wire be, as an example? You can tap your opponent down before sacrificing it to the ravager so you avoid mana drain, which I would say is a big problem for the deck. But with quite so little disruption, I would be very worried about combo matchups. The dark rituals seem out of place, too. Also, is there any chance of seeing what sideboard you're thinking of using?

Tom

[Spizzard]

I tried a version of affinity a long time ago, and some of the problems I faced, you are even more vulnerable to.  (I was playing 4 FoW's and 4 Drains)  If you really want to make this work, you have to come up with a way to survive the numerous hate.

Gorilla Shaman
Nev's Disk
Null Rod
Dampening Matrix
Any artifact removal...
Energy Flux
Blood Moon
and so on...

Near every deck packs artifact removal for the stax matchup and you are just going to run right into it.  If backed up by creature removal, really, you shouldn't be able to win.

Ways to try and fix:

The artifact lands, while an artifact, are much to susceptible to hate.  It is way to easy to mana screw this deck.  I'd suggest running some basics or Duals  (although this doesn't solve many of the problems) instead.... -OR-

Cut some black.  You are only running it for ritual, Disciple and Will.  You could manage to run Ritual + Will by adding 2 City of Brass.  However, I suggest cutting it all together.  Disciple may allow you to win faster, but once you are in the position for disciple damage to start taking effect, you would win anyway.   Disciples might be a viable sideboard card against aggro/some combo to allow you race.

Red is a much better addition to the deck.  You have access to welder.  If you play welder, Thrist for Knowledge becomes a must have.  You also have sideboard option to Slobad, Goblin Tinkerer which could stop various sideboard hate coming in against you.  Shrapnel Blast also becomes another finisher that you could easily support and would supplement with Skullclamp.

That said, I failed to come up with a way to answer the hate.  Which is why I stopped testing any version of affinity.  I may give this a try to see if some reworkings/color changes could make this viable.  But as it stands now, there is too much hate available and used.  If you are expecting bad aggro/bad control this may be an option, but then again, when you are playing against bad decks, anything is an option.

[Matt]

If they hit the ravager, you pump one of your other creatures up phenominally in response.

That might work for Oxidize, but what keeps me from Racking Ravager plus the Frogmite you were going to pump? Or do you plan on having three or more artifact creatures on the board at all times?

[Xhad]

My basic problem with Affinity in T1 right now goes something like this:

Faster "combo you out" builds = scoop to hate = why are you not playing:

-Storm combo decks that are just as vulnerable to hate (if not less so), but combo out faster?
-Food Chain Goblins, which is just as fast as any Ravager build I've seen but much harder to hose?

Slower "use threats and light control" = why are you not playing a Workshop aggro deck like TnT or Stacker?

It's the same thing I said about BroodStarRunner; someone tried to make an affinity deck and it mutated into mono-blue Workshop aggro with Myr Enforcers as the only affinity card.

I tried to make a Ravager Affinity build the day after PT: Kobe, and couldn't come up with a way around the above objections.  Get it to not scoop to hate, or get it to kill on turn 2, then we'll talk.

[GreenMycon]

And if you don't draw power cards in your opening hand...?

You mulligan.

Playing against Hulk, you seem to draw half the restricted cards in your deck. On top of that, quite a few decks will beat hulk if they can outdraw it with a turn 1 ancestral (and turn 1 2xmox+lotus) whilst they don't have the ability to FoW. This may have some potential, but until you have tested more games in which you get bog-standard opening hands, rather than clearly better than average ones, you shouldn't be surprised that we're being somewhat sceptical.

All 3 matches were recorded one after another and not picked due to the quality of them.  I have now also played against Academy and TnT, both were complete dominated.  The TnT Match was also fairly hard due to him resolving 2 Pyrostatic Pillars by turn 2.

To help with the deck, I'd like to echo the sentiment that you don't have enough disruption in here. How would tangle wire be, as an example? You can tap your opponent down before sacrificing it to the ravager so you avoid mana drain, which I would say is a big problem for the deck. But with quite so little disruption, I would be very worried about combo matchups. The dark rituals seem out of place, too. Also, is there any chance of seeing what sideboard you're thinking of using?

The tangle wire is a possible sideboard option, but the problem is that it would have the highest casting cost in the deck if I were to use it.  Further more, it slows your deck down by taping most of your crucial mana sources for turn 2.  Also, while the Dark Rituals may seem out of place, I have generally always liked them when I end up drawing into them.  They simply allows you to cast your Myr Enforcers when you're a few artifacts short, or they just let you combo out with skullclamp.  The sideboard I am not really sure on but would probably include the standard assortment of Rack and Ruins, Red Elemental Blasts, Maybe Tangle Wires, etc.  Any revisions of the deck would be welcomed.

I tried a version of affinity a long time ago, and some of the problems I faced, you are even more vulnerable to. (I was playing 4 FoW's and 4 Drains) If you really want to make this work, you have to come up with a way to survive the numerous hate.

Gorilla Shaman
Nev's Disk
Null Rod
Dampening Matrix
Any artifact removal...
Energy Flux
Blood Moon
and so on...

Blood moon barely hurts you, it hurts you in much the same way that it's annoying to TnT, but doesn't really matter that much.  Nevinyral's Disk is a late game card, which, well, is wrecking, except in response you just sac all your artifacts to the ravager and then welding jar it for the win next turn.  Null Rod is a scoop, hands down... good thing there are sideboard options.  Damping matrix only hits the ravager + clamp, meaning you can still just go into beat down mode to race them.  Energy flux: Scoop.  But I was under the impression that Energy Flux has been nudged out of favor by other cards such as Artifact Mutation and Rack and Ruin.  Also, Shaman is pretty slow and can be dealt with by switching the Welding Jars over to Pyrite spellbombs.

Near every deck packs artifact removal for the stax matchup and you are just going to run right into it. If backed up by creature removal, really, you shouldn't be able to win.

Pinpoint artifact removal isn't much of a problem for this deck as you'll just out draw it.  Creature removal isn't in bulk, and the ravager again prevents that from happening.

Cut some black. You are only running it for ritual, Disciple and Will. You could manage to run Ritual + Will by adding 2 City of Brass. However, I suggest cutting it all together. Disciple may allow you to win faster, but once you are in the position for disciple damage to start taking effect, you would win anyway. Disciples might be a viable sideboard card against aggro/some combo to allow you race.

City of Brass defeats the entire purpose of the Affinity mechanism.  Glimmer Void + Darksteel Citadels are superior to this proposition.  And by suggesting the disciple be moved, clearly signifies that you are unaware of how this deck actually works.  Aside from Ravager and Skullclamp, Disciple is the best card in the deck and is your win condition, not just a "Win More" card.

Red is a much better addition to the deck. You have access to welder. If you play welder, Thrist for Knowledge becomes a must have. You also have sideboard option to Slobad, Goblin Tinkerer which could stop various sideboard hate coming in against you. Shrapnel Blast also becomes another finisher that you could easily support and would supplement with Skullclamp.

The deck is red due to its 6 Red Sources.  Welder is a potential sideboard candidate at best, but is too slow to be included main.  Thirst for Knowledge, while it is amazing, takes up too much important blue mana when going off to be good enough.  I was running it in my earlier versions and was annoyed that I couldn't cast it then continue to clamp, as my mana was being eaten.

That said, I failed to come up with a way to answer the hate. Which is why I stopped testing any version of affinity. I may give this a try to see if some reworkings/color changes could make this viable. But as it stands now, there is too much hate available and used. If you are expecting bad aggro/bad control this may be an option, but then again, when you are playing against bad decks, anything is an option.

Well, the hate isn't that bad as you can just out draw them.  Aside from Nevynrall's Disk, there is really no mass removal that shuts you down completey.  And as for the Flux + Null Rod, oh well, it's a risk you have to take.  Besides, Null Rod and Energy Flux aren't severely common in the top tier decks, meaning you could pull of some wins from people simply not expecting such a deck.  Of course, if the deck becomes remotely popular, it won't be able to win unless tweaks are made so it can deal with the two "I scoop" cards.  As for the expecting Aggro and Bad Control, I have played against both Good Aggro (TnT), and won 3 matches palyed against that, and I got a good match against Good Control (Hulk) and also won that.  As this deck has beaten two decks considered to be reasonably good, I see no reason why this deck has no chance to become viable.

That might work for Oxidize, but what keeps me from Racking Ravager plus the Frogmite you were going to pump? Or do you plan on having three or more artifact creatures on the board at all times?

Well, assuming they cast both, the rack and ruin after the ravager dies to oxidize, then you'll just have to assume that the skullclamp was on one of your beaties, and you'll be able to draw the two cards off it.  If not, then both hands should be relatively depleted (based on assumed mana necessities to use both on the same turn within the first 3 turns of the game), you'll go into top deck mode, which, assuming you still have a skullclamp in play, shouldn't be that hard.

Faster "combo you out" builds = scoop to hate = why are you not playing:

-Storm combo decks that are just as vulnerable to hate (if not less so), but combo out faster?
-Food Chain Goblins, which is just as fast as any Ravager build I've seen but much harder to hose?

Slower "use threats and light control" = why are you not playing a Workshop aggro deck like TnT or Stacker?

It's the same thing I said about BroodStarRunner; someone tried to make an affinity deck and it mutated into mono-blue Workshop aggro with Myr Enforcers as the only affinity card.

I tried to make a Ravager Affinity build the day after PT: Kobe, and couldn't come up with a way around the above objections. Get it to not scoop to hate, or get it to kill on turn 2, then we'll talk.

Combo scoops to hate that this deck doesn't need to scoop to.  Because this deck is both combo, and aggro, it is hard to shutdown the entire deck with the exception of a few cards.  Besides, there are even some crafty tricks around the Enegy Flux's triggered ability.  Also, this deck is much faster than TnT, and quite a bit faster than FCG as well.   But I'm quite aware this deck is extremely easy to hose, but if SB slots are actually devoted for the specific destruction of this deck, then I guess it means its viable.  As for the turn 2 kill, I'd say it happens 3-5% of the time.

I would like for some other people to actually test the deck rather than discredit it.  I can not accomplish the adequate testing or tweaking needed for this deck due to the lack of competition generated by apprentice, and the fact that I don't live in a t1 area to test it IRL.  So, any help would be appreciated.

--Jeff

[Vegeta2711]

and quite a bit faster than FCG as well

This deck usually wins on turn 3 since I modded it

Your equal too, you don't beat FCG's speed.

I would like for some other people to actually test the deck rather than discredit it. I can not accomplish the adequate testing or tweaking needed for this deck due to the lack of competition generated by apprentice, and the fact that I don't live in a t1 area to test it IRL

Right. Like anyone will possibly care enough to test the deck with posted results such as, 'i played 2 matches against Hulk & TnT and won with some busted hands!'. You either need rock hard results OR a theory sound enough to be worthy of people's time.

Since you can't do #1, I suggest you focus more on #2. Because right now your not coming close to meeting it.

[darkmindtone]

Check here: http://www.morphling.de/coverages/top8decks.php?id=110

Today a Ravager Affinity deck got 2nd at a powered type 1 Dulmen tourney.  Here's the decklist(although it is a bit odd-looking):

4 Arcbound Crusher
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Arcbound Worker
1 Black Lotus
3 Genesis Chamber
1 Mana Crypt
3 Metalworker
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
3 Myr Moonvessel
4 Skullclamp
1 Sol Ring
4 Disciple of the Vault
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
4 Goblin Welder

Lands:
4 Glimmervoid
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Mishra's Workshop
3 Mountain
1 Tolarian Academy

S/B:  
4 Dismantling Blow
4 Pyrite Spellbomb
4 Shattering Pulse
3 Tormod's Crypt

[GreenMycon]

I have been doing a good amount of testing as of recent, and my build seems to be doing fine and continues to grab one win after another on the only testing platform I have, apprentice.  Below is a general list of matchups and how they turned out on Apprentice.  I know I am mising several of the major archetypes, and have a bunch of not really viable decks, but they're results none the less.

//Aggro

Suicide Black
Matches: 4
Games Won: 4
Games Lost: 1
Match Wins: 4

Lackey Goblins
Matches: 2
Games Won: 4
Games Lost: 0
Match Wins: 2

Food Chain Goblins (Sorry for the lack of results)
Matches: 1/2
Games Won: 1
Games Lost: 0
Match Wins: 1/2

Madness/Oshawa Stompy
Matches: 7
Game Won: 10
Games Lost: 6
Match Wins: 5

TnT
Matches: 4
Games Won: 8
Games Lost: 3
Match Wins: 4

//Control

Hulk
Matches: 3
Games Won: 7
Games Lost: 2
Match Wins: 2

Keeper (old school, sorry)
Matches: 1
Games Won: 2
Games Lost: 0
Match Wins: 1

MUD (w/o Trinisphere)
Matches: 2
Games Won: 3
Games Lost: 2
Match Wins: 1

MUD (w trinisphere)
Matches: 3
Games Won: 3
Games Lost: 5
Matches won: 1 (I got lucky.. bad matchup)

Aside:  Other workshop bassed decks followed in much the same pattern as the above results.  If Trinisphere, Chalice, and Sphere of Resistance are in the deck, this deck has very little chance.  Utterly terrible matchup.

//Combo

Belcher
Matches: 2
Games Won: 1
Games Lost: 4
Matches Won: 0

Aside:  One turn too fast for the deck.  However, by altering my affinity build slightly, the matchup becomes much better.


Sorry for not having results for more of the decks and everything, but it is fairly hard to run into people whom are willing to help you test.  But the above results more or less state that this deck simply smashes Aggro, and has game against non-workshop based control.  Combo is too fast for my below build, but isn't that bad if you slow the deck down by adding duress to the main.  I still have no sideboard, but the above matches were tested primarily by allowing people to sideboard against me.

//NAME: RAVE
// Land
        4 Glimmervoid
        1 Tolarian Academy
        4 Seat of the Synod*
        3 Vault of Whispers
// 0
        3 Welding Jar
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mana Crypt
        1 Lotus Petal
// 1
        4 Skullclamp
        3 Disciple of the Vault
        4 Arcbound Worker*
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Mana Vault
// 2
        1 Skeletal Scrying*
        1 Time Walk
        4 Arcbound Ravager
// 3
        2 Thirst for Knowledge
        1 Windfall*
        1 Timetwister
        1 Wheel of Fortune
// 4
        4 Frogmite
// 5
        4 Thoughtcast
// 7
        4 Myr Enforcer

*Drop 1 for duress if you don't like the idea of playing a deck without answers mained.


I have been getting very consistant results with the above deck, and I have done a reasonable amount of testing against quite a bit of hit, and the deck is still able to perform.  The deck is also able to go off turn 1 on occasion.

--Jeff

[urzas child]

whats your sb? im working on a version of this, but its being geared toward having better matches vs mud and belcher (still in the works though)

i run a more creature based/damage to the dome type deck, you might wanna test that out.

going down to 4 disciples is just crazy, theres no point. If you dont like the synergy between disciples and ravager then just play the crusher/genesis chamber version (which is EXTREMELY FUN might i add)

I feel that there needs to be a core for any ravager based decks:

4 ravager
4 disciple
4 frogmite
4 myr enforcer
4 skullclamp
7 solomoxen
1 yawgmoth's will
4 thoughtcast
1 tolarian academy

the rest is up to the player, but i feel that every ravager deck needs to have that in it

[GreenMycon]

whats your sb?

As I've said, I don't have much of a sideboard at the current.  But some auto-ins would be:
Tormod's Crypt (Costs 0 and great against varying matchups)
Duress (If not mained)
Rack and Ruin (Possibly, but then the mana base would need tweaking)
Blue Elemental Blast (Possibly...  mostly meta based decision)

etc. etc.  I'm quite open to suggestions of sideboard cards.

going down to 4 disciples is just crazy, theres no point. If you dont like the synergy between disciples and ravager then just play the crusher/genesis chamber version (which is EXTREMELY FUN might i add)

I was forced to drop one disciple simply because there wasn't room for all 4.  I have never had problems with my current build drawing the disciple for the win when needed.  I found that frequently, with a count of four, they would clogg up your opening hand and would prevent some of the more amazing plays.

I feel that there needs to be a core for any ravager based decks:

4 ravager
4 disciple
4 frogmite
4 myr enforcer
4 skullclamp
7 solomoxen
1 yawgmoth's will
4 thoughtcast
1 tolarian academy

I disagree, some of the numbers can be toyed with to make matchups more favorable.  For instance, going down to 3 disciple is more than acceptable.  Also, Yawgmoth's will really isn't that great.  I have included it in my deck, but it combos extremely poorly with the disciple of the vault engine.  Personally, I think the deck has more than enough fire power without hte need of the yawgmoth's will.  I personally have prefered the Skeletal Scrying of the will simply because it is much better when you're still in need of combo pieces.

Any advancements you make in the deck to improve the charbelcher/workshop deck matchup, please let me know.

--Jeff

[Dr_Tongue]

Nice work on the deck, as I can attest to the decks speed. The combo that the Arcbound has with the disciple is quite irritating, even with the presence of a Shaman on the board trying ~in vain~ to maintain board control.Take another point of damage and watch the "Brown Dryad" grow.

 And yes, I know it's not a Dryad ,but it seems to grow just as fast.

 Work on that SB and it looks like a nice deck to grow on.

[urzas child]

my sb is currently:

4 stifle
4 rack and ruin
4 fire/ice
3 tormod's crypt

i live in the NE, where slavery/stax, tog, etc runs rampant, so this is what I feel is best. I've been testing the deck a bit, around 40 games, ive found that the deck on average wins on turn 4. I've never had a turn 2 win, and only 4 turn 6 wins, none more than turn 6. most of this was just goldfishing so its not the most real-life testing, but i just wanted to make sure that this deck could consistantly win turn 4 against an easy deck

[Misemaster]

Hey I have looked at a couple of the builds in this thread and I have created my own. First here is my list,

Creatrues or stuff that makes them:
4 Myr Enforcer
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Frogmite      
3 Genesis Chamber
4 Arcbound Worker
4 Disciple of the Vault

Draw and a bit of disruption:
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister  
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Skullclamp
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Windfall
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Wheel of Fortune

Mana:
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Glimmervoid
1 Tolarian Academy

I saw the genesis chamber in a list with workshop and I decided to test out how it works in here. With the ravager and skull clamp the tokens it makes allow you to go nuts. They also count towards affinty which is never a bad thing.

Some people were complaining about the lack of disruption in this deck and I had to agree with them. To try and aliviate some of the problems I put in cabal therapy which if you know what to call has been very effective. Also genesis chamber has helped out with the speed of the deck, sometimes allowing it to combo off with disciple very quickly.

The hate is still a large problem for this deck however cabal therapy helps the first game and a sb can be made to remedy some problems. I am not sure what to include but I definetly think stifles deserve a place. Also it may need some beb's as welder is a HUGE problem. Suggestions are welcome.

[urzas child]

i have a version of affinity with chambers, therapies, etc. I dont use frogmites, myr enforcers, and ravagers were even in question. What i've found NECESSARY to a chamber build is arcbound crusher. This thing gets bigger than any ravager will ever get, and with 1 or more chambers out, its just crazy. I've found that version to be less consistant, and just overall not worth it

[Misemaster]

I would have to disagree that Arcbound chrusher is necesarry to a genesis build. The genesis are about speeding the deck up and keeping the draw with skullclamp going. I found without workshops that the chrusher is too slow to come out and without a chamber not that stellar. To be able to cast the crusher at 4 mana I had to empty my hand of most of my artifcats. I was trying to stay away from a workshop build do to my available card pool.

[GreenMycon]

 ive found that the deck on average wins on turn 4. I've never had a turn 2 win, and only 4 turn 6 wins, none more than turn 6. most of this was just goldfishing so its not the most real-life testing, but i just wanted to make sure that this deck could consistantly win turn 4 against an easy deck

I get primarily turn 3 wins in gold fish mode, and when there are actually threats on the table, at least in the form of aggro, I still am getting turn 3 wins.  The deck is relatively easy to play, but if you continue to be getting turn 4 wins you're probably making some game play choices that I would not.  Generally, I mulligan with this deck very aggressively until I have a hand that should fairly easily be around a turn 3 win.  Perhaps you have been keeping "Bad hands" which generally consist of less than 2 mana sources and only 2-3 drops in the first turn.  As for turn 2 wins, they also happen abour once in every 12 games or so (haven't actually logged, just what I seem to recollect), and I have gotten a few turn 1 wins when you draw "the nut high".

Stifle is a nice possability for sideboard, but I find that Duress are also necessary (if you're not running them main, as I'm not.)  The Fire/Ice I don't really see as being overly relavent, because, well, if the workshop player does drop the welder, that is one of the happiest days of your life, as it gives you a chance to just go off and win.  However, more likeley, by the time the welder hits play, the fire/ice will just be too irrelevent to even bother playing.

Turn 1 Kill log (for anything that it's worth)
00:29:44 - GreenMycon drew 7 cards.
00:30:03 - GreenMycon plays Mana Crypt.
00:30:04 - Mana Crypt is tapped.
00:30:06 - GreenMycon plays Skullclamp.
00:30:08 - GreenMycon plays Tolarian Academy.
00:30:11 - Tolarian Academy is tapped.
00:30:13 - GreenMycon plays Time Walk.
00:30:15 - GreenMycon buries Time Walk.
00:30:16 - Mana Crypt is untapped.
00:30:16 - Tolarian Academy is untapped.
00:30:17 - GreenMycon draws a card.
00:30:19 - GreenMycon plays Mox Ruby.
00:30:27 - Mox Ruby is tapped.
00:30:28 - Mana Crypt is tapped.
00:30:30 - GreenMycon plays Wheel of Fortune.
00:30:32 - GreenMycon moves Disciple of the Vault from GreenMycon's hand to GreenMycon's graveyard.
00:30:32 - GreenMycon moves Thoughtcast from GreenMycon's hand to GreenMycon's graveyard.
00:30:34 - GreenMycon drew 7 cards.
00:30:36 - GreenMycon buries Wheel of Fortune.
00:30:38 - GreenMycon plays Mox Pearl.
00:30:42 - GreenMycon plays Welding Jar.
00:30:43 - GreenMycon plays Welding Jar.
00:30:45 - Mox Pearl is tapped.
00:30:49 - GreenMycon plays Skullclamp.
00:31:54 - GreenMycon plays Frogmite.
00:31:55 - Tolarian Academy is tapped. (adds 8)
00:31:59 - GreenMycon plays Thoughtcast.
00:31:59 - GreenMycon draws a card.
00:31:59 - GreenMycon draws a card.
00:32:00 - GreenMycon buries Thoughtcast.
00:32:02 - GreenMycon plays Frogmite.
00:32:05 - GreenMycon plays Windfall.
00:32:08 - GreenMycon moves Disciple of the Vault from GreenMycon's hand to GreenMycon's graveyard.
00:32:08 - GreenMycon moves Skullclamp from GreenMycon's hand to GreenMycon's graveyard.
00:32:10 - GreenMycon buries Windfall.
00:32:11 - GreenMycon drew 7 cards.
00:32:15 - GreenMycon plays Mox Diamond.
00:32:18 - GreenMycon buries Vault of Whispers.
00:32:21 - GreenMycon plays Myr Enforcer.
00:33:00 - GreenMycon plays Timetwister.
00:33:04 - GreenMycon moves Vault of Whispers from GreenMycon's graveyard to GreenMycon's library.
00:33:04 - GreenMycon moves Windfall from GreenMycon's graveyard to GreenMycon's library.
00:33:04 - GreenMycon moves Skullclamp from GreenMycon's graveyard to GreenMycon's library.
00:33:04 - GreenMycon moves Disciple of the Vault from GreenMycon's graveyard to GreenMycon's library.
00:33:04 - GreenMycon moves Thoughtcast from GreenMycon's graveyard to GreenMycon's library.
00:33:04 - GreenMycon moves Wheel of Fortune from GreenMycon's graveyard to GreenMycon's library.
00:33:04 - GreenMycon moves Thoughtcast from GreenMycon's graveyard to GreenMycon's library.
00:33:04 - GreenMycon moves Disciple of the Vault from GreenMycon's graveyard to GreenMycon's library.
00:33:04 - GreenMycon moves Time Walk from GreenMycon's graveyard to GreenMycon's library.
00:33:07 - GreenMycon moves a card from GreenMycon's hand to GreenMycon's library.
00:33:07 - GreenMycon moves a card from GreenMycon's hand to GreenMycon's library.
00:33:08 - GreenMycon is shuffling library...
00:33:09 - GreenMycon drew 7 cards.
00:33:13 - GreenMycon buries Timetwister.
00:33:14 - GreenMycon plays Black Lotus.
00:33:16 - GreenMycon plays Mox Emerald.
00:33:33 - Mox Diamond is tapped.
00:33:33 - Mox Emerald is tapped.
00:33:35 - GreenMycon plays Skullclamp.
00:33:35 - GreenMycon plays Seat of the Synod.
00:33:36 - Seat of Synod is tapped.
00:33:46 - GreenMycon draws a card.
00:33:46 - GreenMycon draws a card.
00:33:47 - GreenMycon draws a card.
00:33:47 - GreenMycon draws a card.
00:33:50 - GreenMycon buries Frogmite.
00:33:52 - GreenMycon plays Lotus Petal.
00:33:57 - GreenMycon buries Lotus Petal.
00:33:59 - GreenMycon plays Disciple of the Vault.
00:34:02 - GreenMycon buries Black Lotus.
00:34:09 - GreenMycon plays Disciple of the Vault.
00:34:11 - GreenMycon plays Mana Vault.
00:34:11 - Mana Vault is tapped.
00:34:12 - GreenMycon plays Arcbound Ravager.

Fun.

[DEA]

you might want to post some less broken hands that don't consist of 3 or more restricted cards

[GreenMycon]

Okay, I did a couple of apprentice games, and listed the hands I drew below.  All pretty good hands.  The above game was just a first turn win, which I thought was fairly neat so I logged it.  That is by all means a non-standard draw.


Hand 1:
Seat of the Synod
Mana Vault
Frogmite
Timetwister
Arcbound Ravager
Thirst for Knowledge
Vault of the Whispers

Break down:  Two mana sources, first turn Ravager and First turn frogmite.  That's an adequate first turn.  However, this is a hand which won't have enough mana for turn 2, so you're left with a few decisions.
1)  Play the Mite and Ravager and prey for a top decked mana accelerator for turn 2 which will give you enough power to win
2) Play Thirst for Knowledge on turn 2 (you'll probably get a mox or land), then hopefully drop the mox, ravager, mite
3)  twister turn 2, get mana acceleration and hopefully a better hand.

This hand is very iffy if you are unsure what your opponent is playing.  Because of that, I'd opt for the turn two timetwister just so I can set myself up into a stable board position for the next few turns.  If I knew my opponent were playing an aggro deck, however, I'd probably just drop ravager and frogmite and not sweat it.

I opted for the twister choice, proceded to draw a mox off the top, played ravager, frogmite, mox, twister, myr enforcer, yadda yadda yadda.

This hand was probably worth mulliganing as the first turn was very slow.

Hand 2:
Thirst for Knowledge
Seat of the Synod
Glimmervoid
Ancestral Recall
Seat of the Synod
Arcbound Ravager
Mana Crypt

Reasonably good hand.  Simply drop the seat, cast ancestral, drop crypt and ravager if nothing comes from the ancestral.  If the ancestral is countered, you have thirst next turn.

Result: Drew Worker, Skullclamp, Enforcer
Worker Skullclamp seems like a fine play to me.  Ups the affinity count for an explosive third turn, and gives you insane solutions for anything that the opponent can throw at you, well, with a few exceptions.

Hand 3:
Arcbound Worker
Myr Enforcer
Black Lotus
Mox Emerald
Skeletal Scrying
Timetwister
Mox Ruby

Hand is acceptable if the opponent is unlikely to drop a sphere/chalice, or is playing control.  If it's an aggro matchup, instant keeper.  I think the play is fairly obvious to tap the emerald for worker and sac lotus to cast twister saving a blue to cast thoughtcast.

Result:
Myr Enforcer
Seat of the Synod
Mox Pearl
Arcbound Worker
Welding Jar
Thirst for Knowledge
Seat of the Synod

Drop the land, Pearl, Jar, Worker and the Enforcer

Again, this is an aggro matchup, so having beef on the table is much better than drawing more cards.  It is possible to get a welding jar or moxen at this point, but the risk to return ratio is too risky.

Hand 4:
Skullclamp
Mana Crypt
SKullclamp
Myr Enforcer
Mox Emerald
Ancestral Recall
Disciple of the Vault

Mulligan.  This hand has no blue mana, and you can never count on drawing it with this deck.  Quite simply, you won't.  If you did draw the blue, well, then it's an awesome hand.
For those who are curious, the next card wasn't a blue source, it was a welding jar.

New hand of 6:
Myr Enforcer
Vault of Whispers
Mox Emerald
Vault of Whispers
Arcbound Ravager
Welding Jar

This hand is keepable, but as I aggresively mulligan, I'd throw it back.  The hand has plenty of options however, with regeneration for the ravager + a quick myr enforcer.  The one thing I don't like is that there is no blue, so you can't get out of top deck mode on turn 2 when you need to.   By keeping this hand, you're in for a longer game.

Hand of 5:
Arcbound Worker
Myr Enforcer
Black Lotus
Glimmervoid
Ancestral Recall

Yup, you have the turn 1 recall.  Again, the control matchup might be slightly risky with this hand.  But it's perfectly fine on the goldfish.

Drop the void for the ancestral which yields: Mana Crypt, Frogmite, SKullclamp.. WOW!

Simply put: Empty your hand, skullclamp the worker.  How you might ask?
Declare the Myr Enforcer, then sac the lotus so you pay only two mana.

Yields: Worker and Vault.  Fine, you have more fodder for next turn + 8 damage hitting.


All above hands were copied card for card as they appeared.  Hands were listed in consecutive order and were not altered in anyway to make draws appear better than they are.   Most hands above were highly capable of turn 3 wins.

Statistics for you:

Chance of Drawing Ancestral Recall + Blue souce turn 1:
11%

Chance of Drawing Draw card and blue source turn 1 (no clamp):
73%

Chance of having 3 mana sources by turn 1:
56%

Chance of having 5 artifacts in hand:
56%

Chance of having 2 Mox in opening hand:
24%


My results, for the most part, reflected the MODO generated statistics.

As for less broken hands, the average hand should have two restircted cards in it.  If it doesn't you should most deffinately consider a mulligan.

--Jeff

[Androstanolone]

people are underrating this deck, the version you're playing aside, the affinity + draw spell + fast mana + ravager concept is solid.  The deck crushes control unless it gets a turn 1 or 2 null rod and has good game against aggro.  I doubt it'll see much play because it's a non tier 1 deck that's also non budget, people who have the cash would play a tier 1 deck and those strapped for cash would play FCG, ghey etc.  The people who toss it out in this thread and badmouth it in irc evidently haven't played against it.  Free 2/2's and 4/4's with card draw and a combo win on turn 3 is solid.  A friend of mine who has done extensive testing with the deck over the last few days says it wins turn 3 (goldfish) more like 60% of the time.  It's a bit slow for T1, but because of the nature of the the deck it's "slowness" really only matters against storm.dec.  Just wanted to give it a little backup.  



- Androstan

[Loci]

When Mirrodin just come out most type one players said affinity was crap. To play for fun I threw an artifact deck together and as it turned out it spat out permanents so fast that I wondered if this really didn't have any potential. (It won with Megatog ) True, the artifact lands helped a lot and are an easy target and thus a weakness. But what an artifact land can do for affinity, Workshop can do three times better. So it didn’t look hopeless to me. With Darksteel I added some cards, like Skullclamp and it became straight out annoying. No I know this doesn't proof affinity isn't crap. But it does proof potential. If something really has synergy and speed like that it has potential. Off course it could still be utter crap in the end. But then you have to proof that. Just like everybody wants proof if someone claims it does work.

I am sorry to say that, and the beginning of this thread is some proof of that, many Type1 players think they know it all. They seem to discard something as unplayable when:
a) It looks too casual or too much like something that was played in Type2
b) They have tried it and didn't come up with a solution for the problems they encountered within a month
c) It looks too much like a deck already around that is obviously better.

The kind of stuff you have to put up with in general for even suggesting an idea amazes me. I must be dealing with people who are all at least as good as Zherbus (I sure hope I spelled that right ) otherwise many of them just have a big mouth. And believe me I have seen my share of that kind of Magic player. Type1 or not. There are a lot of them. They learn from somebody else, master it further a bit and all of the sudden they are the God of Magic.
Sometimes everybody thinks some card or some combo or etc. is crap, but everybody is wrong. There are enough examples.

If you want proof that something works then wait until somebody claims they have something finished. If not either help or please just shut up.

@Greenmycon, keep up the good work! Even if things do not turn out the way you want it, you at least tried, (It is not easy working on something new, especially when you are somewhat isolated) held on and kept asking for help instead of claiming you already knew it all.

(If you think I am a whiner, save your breath I am too old to care)

[jpmeyer]

I am sorry to say that, and the beginning of this thread is some proof of that, many Type1 players think they know it all. They seem to discard something as unplayable when:
a) too much like something that was played in Type2

So true :<