Hinder Box - Artifact

[Rando]

Hinder Box
4
Artifact
Hinder Box comes into play with 4 charge counters.  If Hinder Box would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, remove it from the game instead.
Remove a charge counter from Hinder Box: Counter target spell unless its controler pays 1.

Prismatic Prison
4
Artifact
Sunburst (This comes into play with a charge counter on it for each color of mana used to pay its cost.)

Remove a charge counter from Prismatic Prison: Counter target spell unless its controler pays X, where X is the number of charge counters on Prismatic Prison.

[Ocifer]

I'd have to say too powerful. It's just too good as is, I'd cut the counters in half, and that'd just be a start.

[Matt]

Wait, so it's like a 4cc Mana Leak? If Power Conduit didn't exist, I'd say it's nowhere near powerful. It's probably fine even with Conduit...Ocifer, what makes you think this is too strong?

[Rando]

I didn't think it would be too powerful, especially since I put built-in protection from Welder abuse.

[Ocifer]

It's a Mana Leak for 4 in any color, even if it is 4cc. It can be workshopped or metalworked into play. It has incredible synergy with the lock elements already available to mono-brown players. Think about this in a MUD deck and you'll see what I mean.

This is almost just fine in every other format, but it's just too good for T1. And other formats will quickly and easily find a way to break such an ability.

[GerryMander]

I really like the concept, but the ability is just too strong.  Mebby this would work better if you make it work for both players, and instead of making it counter it, you make it cost more.

Hinder Box

Artifact
When Hinder Box comes into play, put 3 charge counters on it.
Players cannot play spells unless they pay an additional , where X is the number of charge counters on Hinder Box.
Whenever a player plays a spell, remove a charge counter from Hinder Box.

[Matt]

Is this honestly any more insane than the lock parts Workshop-prison already has? There's no room for this.

[GerryMander]

his current version would be run in any type of deck that would want access to colorless counterspells.  It is really irrelevant if Prison can use it or not.

[Matt]

What sort of deck would want colorless, four mana, weak counterspells?

[Jacob Orlove]

I don't see this being overly powerful at all. The average artifact destruction spell costs 2 mana, so you either spend like all the counters to save it, or you trade it for a 2 mana spell. This is by no means too powerful for 4 mana.

[GerryMander]

What sort of deck would want colorless, four mana, weak counterspells?

with that same logic, we could make this!

CARD

Artifact
, Pay 2 life, :  Destroy target enchantment with converted mana cost of 4 or less.

It is an incredibly weak card, but it just gave red and black a way to destroy enchantments.

Colors that cannot counter shouldn't have access to straight-up counterspells like this.  It doesn't even have a draw back!

[Matt]

...have you never heard of Oblivion Stone? Oh no, Rod of Ruin is a horrible mistake, it gives blue and white direct damage!  

Artifacts can do most anything they want to, provided they don't do it better than the color that has it as its specialty.

Anyway, there are two discussions going on here: "is the card too powerful?" and "Should this effect be made?" I say "no" on the first, and "sure, why not" on the second.

[Rando]

As far as prison decks go, what would such a deck remove to play this?  Certainly not Sphere (either one), and not Smokestack or Tanglewire.

There's lots of artifacts that mirror colored abilities.  Many let thier controler gain life, like Zuran Orb, and more then one does direct damage, like Aeopile.

Also, we have already set a precident for artifacts with "colored" abilites with my "...in a bottle" cycle. (Decanter of Despair, et al.)

[Jacob Orlove]

Oh no, artifacts that can counter spells! Makes me think of Null Brooch for some reason. And artifacts can certainly kill enchantments: just look at Amulet of Unmaking.

[Ocifer]

This card is strictly better than Force Spike, which is already a decent, though underused, card. This is four spikes, all in a single card, for the same cost, though now all colorless.
It's just too good. You can't give every color access to 4 force spikes on a single card, and at a reasonable cost to boot. And you especially can't give Workshop the same ability at an effective cost of 2 (you'd only tap 2 lands to play this).
How you can manage to defend THIS card and then condemn a white counterspell which is plainly worse than this monstrosity is beyond me. If you honestly beleive that white shouldn't have access to counterspells, then how can you defend this?

4 Force Spikes + On a single card (aka. card advantage) + an all colorless mana cost (as in available to all colors) + more easily accelerated into play (since it's an artifact) + interacts with charge counter modifiers = TOO STRONG

[brendan]

Strictly better than force spike?

Uhm. Wow.. That's just plain wrong.

This card is by no means too strong. It seems absolutely fine to me.

[Jacob Orlove]

Force Spike is only good because you can play it turn one to counter their first spell. By the time you cast this, it's ridiculously easy for them to play around it.

[GerryMander]

In Type 1

First Turn:  Workshop, Mox, Hinder Box.  This thing just gave you 1-2 extra turns.

[Ocifer]

In Type 1

First Turn:  Workshop, Mox, Hinder Box.  This thing just gave you 1-2 extra turns.

Precisely my point.

[Matt]

It's hardly Hinder-Box's fault if that's a strong opening, and still far less abusive than Shop-Trinisphere-go.

[Ocifer]

4 Force Spikes + On a single card (aka. card advantage) + an all colorless mana cost (as in available to all colors) + more easily accelerated into play (since it's an artifact) + interacts with charge counter modifiers = TOO STRONG

I still don't understand how you can argue with this. ^^^

I insist that this card is far too strong and I can't fathom printing it in the current incarnation. It's simply too strong. I can't stop you from letting this through the gaps, but I can voice my objections at every step... and I will.

[GerryMander]

It's hardly Hinder-Box's fault if that's a strong opening, and still far less abusive than Shop-Trinisphere-go.

Trinosphere isn't one sided though.  Hinder Box is.

[Matt]

Have you ever played against Trinisphere? It might as well be one-sided.

[GerryMander]

The existance of overly good cards should not account for making more.

[Matt]

That's true, but I still don't see how this is overly strong. It's only a little better than Serrated Arrows, which is a perfectly fine card.

[Jacob Orlove]

The existance of overly good cards should not account for making more.

The issue is NOT that trinisphere is too good, because trinisphere is fine. Mishra's Workshop is the real culprit, and this card is completely fair in any format without the shop. Even in T1, this isn't that great.

[GerryMander]

in the format w/o mishra's workshop, we have Ancient Tombs, "Urzatron", and Cloudposts.  There is enough powerful artifact mana in all formats to make this good.

[Matt]

Yes but only Workshop lets you do it for free. Urza-tron is too hard to assemble quickly (which is what this card needs), Tomb is now banned, and Cloudpost is slow and unreliable.

[GerryMander]

Either cost it at 5 or remove a counter from it, and I will be fine then.

[Ocifer]

Either cost it at 5 or remove a counter from it, and I will be fine then.

I would say 6 or remove two counters. But I suppose I can agree with Gerry.