[Article] Many Happy (Diminishing) Returns - Primer On Draw7

[heiner]

Steve, if Rit & Returns aren't restricted by June, you're not doing your job.

I dont think so, because Returns suck so much compared to the other 3cc draw7's. Double black would be ok because of Ritual but with double U you are often limited to cast it turn 2. If you cast a draw7 with no mana floating first turn and you only draw in a Returns, its almost for certain that you are stopped.

 Mox Diamond is also an addition I am testing out, because it first helps you to get the double U and I also think the low land doesnt hurt much:

Having only one land and a mox Diamond in your Hand is not to bad, because you can cast the mox, play a draw seven, draw into a Hand with another Land and play it. With all the draw sevens I often draw land which I can not play, because I have no fastbond in play.

What I really like when playing this deck: You can just cast a draw7 with no mana floating and you have absolutely no glue what cards you will draw into, but it still works out that often somehow, that you can just keep on goin and win.

[Nehptis]

... I would pull out my pad and make 5 long lines for 4 colors and storm...

That's funny, I've done something similar as well.  Ever since I've been playing Tendril's-based combo I've used a 10 sided for every mana color, 1 for colorless and a 20 sided for storm count.  The first time I play people they are confused as to why I have so many dice in fornt of me.  But, after a game they quickly understand why.  Of course, by doing this I "give-away" the deck that I'm playing against known oppoents. But, in most cases it makes little difference.

[Nefarias]

This may seem a tad off-topic, but the only problem I have with this deck is the name. Draw7, though short and precise, is boring and unoriginal. I even prefered the cleverness of Not-Long. Might I also suggest The Seven Samurai (TSS) or the cooler sounding but less cool reference of The Magnificent Seven (TMS).

As far as the movies they are referencing, they beat the hell out of The Perfect Storm.

[Smmenen]

This may seem a tad off-topic, but the only problem I have with this deck is the name. Draw7, though short and precise, is boring and unoriginal. I even prefered the cleverness of Not-Long. Might I also suggest The Seven Samurai (TSS) or the cooler sounding but less cool reference of The Magnificent Seven (TMS).

As far as the movies they are referencing, they beat the hell out of The Perfect Storm.

The test for a good name is whether a non-type one player would have a good idea of what the deck is about from the name.

Steve

[Charlie]

On the second list I see no reason not to run Sylvan Scrying if you're running 3 Tawons

[jazzykat]

This may seem a tad off-topic, but the only problem I have with this deck is the name. Draw7, though short and precise, is boring and unoriginal. I even prefered the cleverness of Not-Long. Might I also suggest The Seven Samurai (TSS) or the cooler sounding but less cool reference of The Magnificent Seven (TMS).

As far as the movies they are referencing, they beat the hell out of The Perfect Storm.

The test for a good name is whether a non-type one player would have a good idea of what the deck is about from the name.

Steve

I like the name BOOBS... .... uh never mind. I just want to name it something I like. Err actually onto content:

Someone mentioned the diamond and I am going to test it right now as I think the idea has a lot of merit. Although I am using chrome mox with a decent amount of success too. Maybe I am really in the draw seven mode where I do it for the hell of it, but the card disadvantage is really negible to me.

[Methuselahn]

One thing you will find is that if you have any extra bit of acceleration you will be able to continually Draw7 into more Draw7s because your Draw7s will actually generate you mana.

Spells that grant you cards and mana get restricted in Vintage, this is obvious to all.  So, by saying the above, you must realize that the DCI will restrict Diminishing Returns if you successfully sell the deck and it's brokenness.  Returns has been an obvious candidate for the list since it's printing due to its' inherent nature.  So, I guess my real question is this; How are you going to dominate Gencon with it by successfully getting Diminishing Returns restricted??

Excellent article, btw, very informative!

EDIT: Oh wait, I just remembered.  Getting cards restricted > winning tournaments

[jazzykat]

SHHHHHH!!!! I heard combo was dead....no one plays it anymore..... , this deck is awesome but I don't think anything needs to be restricted.

[Androstanolone]

I apologize, there was a lack of clarity in my post, when I said I was limited by colored mana I wasn't playing an all 5-color land deck, and steven's playing with all 5 color lands so obviously that's not a problem.  The point of the post wasn't really colored mana or mana at all, it was addressing what steven pointed out as the biggest problem with the deck, the fact that your opponent gets to see nearly as many cards as you do.  Orim's chant is a 1 mana way to prevent aggro from dropping their hoser a turn before you go off and b) is a must counter for control.  Also, if it resolves against control you can just go off without a care.  It can be sided out against control for the superior xantid swarm.  I'd also side out bargain against permission in addition to a dim or 2, as they are both huge tempo drops if they are countered, and since bargain will likely never find a time to be cast productively.  Either way, a couple of MD chants would do well to protect the combo from the many nasty things out there, it's true that it is only a "delay" card against aggro, but it gives an entire extra turn, tell me how valuable is getting an extra turn with no hosers dropped for this deck?  An extra turn means winning, chanting turn 1 or 2 on artifact prison so they can't drop a one of 12 (3sphere, sphere res, chalice) hosers that many MD gives you an enormous advantage, likewise against aggro with null rod and root maze.  It's simply a versatile card to protect the combo, and can be taken out for more narrow and specific hate for rounds 2 and 3.  The counterargument would be that including MD protection that costs mana inherently slows the deck down as opposed to running more combo pieces.  Still, I think the removal of a couple slots for such cheap and effective protection is reasonable and justifiable.  



- androstan

[jazzykat]

I think that the MD swarms are key as you should be able to smoke most aggro decks anyway, and they are a partial timewalk against non-tramplers at worst.

Against combo they stop their random force and EOT stuff, but are not that useful.


The swarms pwn control. I played games against GAT and hulk tonight and my friend shit himself when I dropped swarm. Even if the swarm eats it, you just have too many must counters, that you give them fits most of the time.

[jazzykat]

OK, I played in a tourney last night. I had to beat up on a little kid last night. I desired for more cards that were left in my deck, like 15 (my friend said that was legal as I was removing them from the game and not drawing).

THen I had a turn 1 V in extra time: I mulliganed to six and got.

1 glimmer void
1 mana crypt
1 mox saphire
1 dark ritual
1 windfall
1 random accelerant (maybe sol ring)

I windfalled for 7 into my 2 tutors and lotus. I had to conjure up an extra dark ritual and then brainstorm up a vamped yawgs win. At that point it was academic and I tendrils for 30 on turn 1.

To top 4 I am such a dumb ass. I took the glimmer void brainstorm no zero cc artifact accelerant hand. I felt the deck loved me so I went for it. Didn't see a zero cc artifact. So I lost my glimmer void. Then I proceeded not to draw land or an on color mox (fucking mox diamond-that shit is getting cut hard!) for 6 turns. OK I was greedy and deserved it.

I found another hard matchup for this deck. Keeper?

Yeah, there md creature removal smokes swarms and they have as many counterspells as I have draw 7's. I know no one should be playing keeper but it was there. This rocks hulk because most builds lack MD removal, so a resolved swarm says I win unless they get deed fast.

What this deck needs is to have a MD way to tutor up dark ritual for less than it costs. I think mystical/enlightened (get the lotus, or mana vault) + brainstorm would be hot for this deck. Maybe I am missing the point but I think it is sorely left out, with all the brainstorms, jar, wheel, bargain,necro, ancestral. And OMG top decking it next turn, even if it is after a timewalk.

[Smmenen]

I didn't post this in the article, but IRL I play 1 Underground Sea and 1 Glimmervoid just for insurance for situations like that.

Steve

[jazzykat]

I didn't post this in the article, but IRL I play 1 Underground Sea and 1 Glimmervoid just for insurance for situations like that.

Steve

Ah, that is probably a good idea. I had another brainstorm and an ancestral in my hand as well.

Question for you: How close to your lists that you write about do you actually play?

I was toying around with less than 4 ESG's and that was a stupid move unless I expected beat down o rama w/o null rods and spheres.

I was also trying to get away with one less brainstorm. I find that if the cards on top suck then I am going to have to draw them unless I can shuffle my deck. vs. control they really turn the screws and try to counter my draw sevens. I am going to test with a mystical, or merchant scroll in place of one, and I think I am going to lean towards mystical as it fetches really useful stuff, and I still need help beating control.

I do not worry about aggro, I am too fast, and combo except dragon is almost nonexistant and I should be faster than them as well.

Thanks,

J. Kat

[Blackest Lotus]

[/quote]But what would be wrong with a metagame where this didn't show up? What's the "dangerous" result of combo's underrepresentation?[/quote]

It keeps the shit out of the metagame, like random newb decks, and Zoo and all sorts of bad decks, crap decks have no place in Type One.

[KrauserKrauser]

After a bit of play testing and the like I simply have never gotten the FoW with a blue pitch when I need it.  With a somewhat control heavy meta I think that Duress would just be a better card for this deck.  I mean consistently I am killing around turn 2-3 if my Draw7's aren't complete poopy and usualy end up with a force in hand with nothing to pitch to it.  Am I crazy?

Oh I also removed the walk for the second maindecked tendrils, Returns scares me too much.

[dmessiah]

Call me a heretic, but I ditched necro.  I have a lot of trouble managing the triple black cost unless it's first turn and I *happen* to have the DR in hand.  If I draw it later, I never play it because I'm already trying to go off, and setting up for nex tturn isn't what I want to do.  Also, I don't like how it makes Wheel and Windfall less desirable because I can't later Timetwister or Diminish what is in my hand (say a Tendrils) later.  But I see why it's in the decklist.
     Mana is always tight for me when I try to go off, and more often than not, I find I'm short on blue, even though I try only to get a single black (for DRs) in the pool and dump the rest into blue.  A lot of times I'm just like "damn, I wish I could either play a 5 color land (if I haven't seen fastbond)" or I was forced to tap an Academy early for 3 or something because there was no other way to get double blue for Returns.  So I'm testing out Frantic Search, and I like it a lot.  There's always crap I don't need (usually land, when I'm already going off), and I get to untap my Academy (which I see a godawful lot of games) or some other random 5-color land to get the green I need for fastbond/rotation, that red for the pesky Burning Wish or the black I just couldn't float to get off the DR I just drew.  Even untapping 2 lands is worth it for me.
     I haven't been a huge fan of brainstorm in this deck; I never seem to be able to shuffle away the crap and at least 50% of the time get crap I don't need.  I don't know what to do about it; I am reluctant to run Impulse or Lim-Dul's Vault.  I tried Meditate and that seems to suck.
     I also feel Time Walk only serves the role of letting you burn for 5 or 6 after fizzling and give you another shot to go again.  Myeh.

[Xhad]

I also hate Brainstorm, and suggest trying out 2 Tainted Pact.  Monkey with the mana base a bit and you can reliably dig 10 cards deep if you need to.  

Regarding Necropotence: Necropotence is the kind of card that looks a lot worse in goldfishing than in actual games.  Yeah, against some decks it's only good played on turn 1 and in those matches I sometimes side it out, but against control I like having another topdeck that they have to counter.

Chrome Mox also helps in that regard since Necropotence is a perfect imprint to cast your Dark Rituals in the event that you already are going off.

[Smmenen]

It could be that you are using Necro too aggressively.  In my article I suggest that you Necro only for 8 as opposed to 12 like you might with Long.

Steve

[jazzykat]

I don't side out necro in control matches, I usually just side out bargain and sometimes a return.

I have been thinking that seed time would be awesome vs. control, in addition to swarms (in case they are countered or do not show up).

[Xhad]

Sounds way too conditional; it's a two-mana, almost off-color card that doesn't do anything unless your opponent has already started disrupting you.  I'd stick with Gibbons if you're that afraid of control.

[dmessiah]

No, I don't use it very aggresively at all; usually I go for less than 8.  Whatever, I might board it in again sometime to fiddle with this.

     I really think Mox Diamond has a place in this deck; every time I've had it, I've gotten it into play and the 5 colors is awesome.  Once I even flushed it with a Wheel and got it back with the Will later.

     Every time I've had Chrome Mox either I don't need the mana, it just makes an ESG stick around (which is irrelevant if I plan to kill before I untap), or I don't want to RFG the card I'd have to in order to ge tthe color I need.

     Frantic Search has also been awesome in my testing - I really like it more and more.  It fixes color screw and makes the push into the first draw 7 totally possible when you can get out your Academy.

     I'm curious about Tainted Pact; I screwed around with Mystical and Consultation and dislike both.

     And I definately play with 3 win conditions.  I, personally, have flushed both win conditions with Returns a couple of times, or lost one while I had the other under a Jar.

[Androstanolone]

With a somewhat control heavy meta I think that Duress would just be a better card for this deck.
Am I crazy?

- KrauserKrauser

Yeah, you're crazy, or just don't understand the deck very well.  Duress is just plain bad in the deck because you will just be taking one spell, then you'll replace it with a draw7 anyway.  Read my earlier post where I mentioned duress.  Also, taking out fow is the worst thing you could do, mana restricts you often and fow is basically free, you really shouldn't have a problem finding a blue card to pitch.  Time walk's somewhat debatable, but if nothing else you get to pitch it to fow, and if you can drop it turn 1 that gives you an enormous advantage, as you will have a high chance of being able to win before your opponent ever gets an untap phase.  Personally, I'm testing the following build, which is basically steven's with chants fit in:

card draw/search:
4 brainstorms
3 dim returns
1 time walk
1 ancestral
1 twister
1 windfall
1 wheel of fortune
1 mem jar
1 tinker
1 vamp tutor
1 necro
1 yawg's will
1 bargain
1 rotation
1 demonic tutor

kill:

1 burning wish
1 dim returns

backup:

4 fow
2 orim's chant
1 chain of vapor

mana:  

basically the same I think.  SB pretty similar, arti h8, recall, swarms, more cov's etc.  Not a whole lot was said on MD chants so I guess nobody really agrees with me on it, but that's fine .  



- androstan

[Xhad]

Regarding Mox Diamond: I fail to see how it is possible for Chrome to screw you more often than Diamond in a deck running eleven land.  At least I can drop Chrome with no imprint as Tinker fodder or to boost storm.  It's also got much better synergy with, say, Fastbond.

Regarding Duress: For the longest time I was playing with Unmask (and a higher concentration of black cards) just to see how it would compare, and it was terrible.  Duress has most of the same problems Unmask does except it also happens to cost mana.

[thecapn]

 Call me a heretic, but I ditched necro. I have a lot of trouble managing the triple black cost unless it's first turn and I *happen* to have the DR in hand. If I draw it later, I never play it because I'm already trying to go off, and setting up for nex tturn isn't what I want to do. Also, I don't like how it makes Wheel and Windfall less desirable because I can't later Timetwister or Diminish what is in my hand (say a Tendrils) later. But I see why it's in the decklist.
Mana is always tight for me when I try to go off, and more often than not, I find I'm short on blue, even though I try only to get a single black (for DRs) in the pool and dump the rest into blue. A lot of times I'm just like "damn, I wish I could either play a 5 color land (if I haven't seen fastbond)" or I was forced to tap an Academy early for 3 or something because there was no other way to get double blue for Returns. So I'm testing out Frantic Search, and I like it a lot. There's always crap I don't need (usually land, when I'm already going off), and I get to untap my Academy (which I see a godawful lot of games) or some other random 5-color land to get the green I need for fastbond/rotation, that red for the pesky Burning Wish or the black I just couldn't float to get off the DR I just drew. Even untapping 2 lands is worth it for me.
I haven't been a huge fan of brainstorm in this deck; I never seem to be able to shuffle away the crap and at least 50% of the time get crap I don't need. I don't know what to do about it; I am reluctant to run Impulse or Lim-Dul's Vault. I tried Meditate and that seems to suck.
I also feel Time Walk only serves the role of letting you burn for 5 or 6 after fizzling and give you another shot to go again. Myeh.

I think cutting necro is a huge mistake, because turn 1-2 necro just wins the game.  I'm guessing your frustration with brainstorm is due to primarily goldfishing - I didn't like it too much until I played the deck in Columbus and realized it's importance as protection against duress, a consistent card to pitch to FoW, great protection against an otherwise poor draw 7, a solid topdeck if the game lasts past turn 3, and a good way to dig for chain of vapor, hurkyl's recall, or other relevant and much needed answer.  The other thing about the deck that you only learn through playing against other decks is learning when to go off and when to pass the turn.  Sometimes it's a much better choice to time walk when it seems like you could go off but it would be hard, or to cast a few draw 7's, give your opponent a turn, and untap and go at it again.  When goldfishing it's much easier to go all or nothing, but I can't stress the necessity of playing against others in truly understanding the deck.

    Frantic Search has also been awesome in my testing - I really like it more and more.  It fixes color screw and makes the push into the first draw 7 totally possible when you can get out your Academy.

What did you cut from the primer list for Frantic Search?  In my opinion, any mana producer has to be better than Lion's Eye Diamond, and any draw spell has to be better than Windfall, Brainstorm #4, or possibly Diminishing Returns #4.  The most likely candidate would be Brainstorm #4, because they would have similar costs with the untap ability (I don't have 3 lands more than half the time), and it seems like it could be more aggressive than brainstorm if you didn't win the first couple turns against a control deck.  However, it does require at least one more card in your hand to use, which is a notable drawback.  I think it's definitely worth testing though.  Anyone else try this?

[jazzykat]

capn wrote:
The other thing about the deck that you only learn through playing against other decks is learning when to go off and when to pass the turn. Sometimes it's a much better choice to time walk when it seems like you could go off but it would be hard, or to cast a few draw 7's, give your opponent a turn, and untap and go at it again. When goldfishing it's much easier to go all or nothing, but I can't stress the necessity of playing against others in truly understanding the deck.


Right on!

Brainstorm is nescessary in a lot of cases (although sometimes it sucks), but I would be a little wary to cut any because for a non-blue card so I have something to pitch to FOW.

I have thought the idea of tainted pact is groovy, but are the cards removed from the game permanently?

[Xhad]

I have thought the idea of tainted pact is groovy, but are the cards removed from the game permanently?

Yes they are, but I wouldn't worry about it that much unless you're also running 4 Returns, Chrome Mox, and only 2 win conditions.  Or more than two pact, which I don't recommend.

[jazzykat]

I order to facilitate discussion I have posted what I am using right now. This way we have something to base our card modifications from. I am only worried about control, as I laugh at aggro decks and only have to be faster than other combo decks.

"Draw7"
Lands:
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
1 Glimmervoid
1 Underground sea
1 Tolarian Academy

Acceleration:
1 Fastbond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
Mox Jet
Mox Ruby
Mox Pearl
Mox Sapphire
Mox Emerald
Lotus Petal
Black Lotus
Sol Ring
Mana Crypt
Mana Vault

Setting up/Protecting the Combo:
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will (they are Awseom111!!one)
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
4 Xantid Swarm

Draw 7s Extraordinaire:
3 Diminishing Returns
1 Tinker
1 Memory Jar
1 Windfall
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Timetwister

Borken!!!Pwned!!!
1 Mind's Desire
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Yawgmoth's Will

Tutors:
1 Vamp Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
(no Mystical or Consult)

Finishers:
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Burning Wish


SB:
3 chain of vapors
3 oxidize
3 hurkylls recall
1 balance
1 crop rotation
1 tendrils
1 returns
1 regrowth
1 hull breach

Now we can post our modifications and have a basis. Because someone just telling me they use tainted pact doesn't help unless I cut something. If I don't cut the same thing as they do, then if I tell them I think it sucks then we really have two separate results not a disagreement.

[KrauserKrauser]

I hadn't really thought of Duress' bad synergy with hand refills, definitely convinced me on that one.  The only other must counter anti-control would have to be the Xantid Swarm which I will be maindecking in my next tournament.

With your latest version, do you ever miss LED, most of the other cards you cut I can see but LED sure does have some nice mana with all the draw sevens we end up casting.  In other words would it be worth it to you to put say an LED and another MD Tendrils and move two swarms to the side?

[Justinsane]

what about orims chant or abeyance?

[Smmenen]

Jazzycat.

I'm almost certain that Tendrils number 2 is better in the maindeck than Burning Wish.  It better utilizes the randomly drawn Dark Rituals.  As much as I like my Foil Wish, I think I'd leave it for the day that Long returns.

Steve