Tiki's Krap Keeper: Snakes 'N Mages

[Fëanor]

Without a huge story and stuff, I'll just post my list and a distress call. Too much has been said about the ancient and popular The Deck, and it's mot over yet, but let's leave theorizing to the stupid.

This deck evolved from my once fun FS.dec (Future Sight). I wanted to make it playable, but soon realized with FS in there, I didn't have a chance. I've attempted splashing Black and all it's done is make the game less consistent. Ideally, anyone could see Duress or Tutors fitting in perfectly, but I just can't seem to figure it out and I've never ben successful at making a good tri-color deck. Here goes:

Mana:
6 Island
2 Plains
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Sol Ring

White:
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Balance
2 Decree of Justice

Blue:
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Mana Drain
2 Stifle
4 Ophidian
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Misdirection

Gold:
3 Meddling Mage
2 Iridescent Angel

Notes:

-The polluted Delta is so I end up having a safe 5 Fetch. After esting a lot, it seems like the ideal number the the current build, but things change.

-The numbers of the following cards are due mostly to the fact that 1) I'm trying to fit them all in 2) I don't have four of's yet.
Misdirection
Mana Drain
Decree of Justice

-I have four MMs but I think three works better. I can easily obtain the less expensive cards like the Angels and Decrees if I need them, but right now I'm trying to vary my win condition so I dont scoop to something game one.

I'll finish by asking: In addition to what you think in general, should I make another attempt at putting black in here?

Any help will be greatly appreciated, Thanks in advance.

Peace

[Toad]

2 Iridescent Angel

You misspelled "Exalted".

[Fëanor]

Fëanor wrote:
2 Iridescent Angel

You misspelled "Exalted".

You actually misspelled Iridescent....

Give me some good reasons to run a good-as-dead, double-white-in-the-casting-cost, creature over a mana-drain-fueled nearly untargetable beatstik, and I'll reconsider.

Peace

[Rico Suave]

Let me get this straight, you have 6 UU counters, and Meddling Mage.

What do you do when you get to two colored mana then?  Save up for a counter, or drop Mage?

EDIT-Oh yea, I think the question isn't "why run Iridescent over Exalted" because it's more like "how many matches today is Exalted going to single-handedly win if it resolves?"

Exalted is unquestionably better.  It destroys aggro, makes Tog's goal difficult, and you can morph it to boot, not to mention it's cheaper even if hardcasting.

[RoadTrippin]

Well, I originally wrote out a pretty lengthy post about why I think black should be run in the deck, and then I remembered EBA is a deck already, and a pretty good one at that. Have you check out the thread(s) on this deck, and if so, what is your justification for playing a similar deck but dropping black which adds so much synergy? Meddling Mage is much better when it follows up a turn 1 Duress.

To work on the 2cc issue of what to play first, maybe you could swap out at least 1 Counterspell for another Misdirection, and drop the 3rd for Mystical? If in time you acquire cards to proxy an additional 2 Mana Drains (to replace the final 2 counterspells), then you'd have a pretty good list going.

[Sytupal]

2 Iridescent Angel

You misspelled "Exalted".

you even got the syllable count wrong.    

I still advise memnarch personally duh...  who can't see that?

[Smash]

Ignoring obvious flaws like crap-a-licious-newb-angel, here are some ideas

4 STP is too much. Cut at least 1, so you can have 2-3 cunning wishes.

With 2 drains, I might run shadowmage over phid.

[Sytupal]

Smash, that whole not running black thing cuts shadowmage from a list of choices.

[Fëanor]

Ok, this is the kind of stuff I've been getting for a long time. Let's clear some things up

Generally, I suck at playing hardcore competitive. People have told me I'm a good player, but my weakness is not being able to see every side of something.

That short explanation in mind, I still don't understand why Iridescent Angel isn't getting any attention. Of course she's expensive, but it's worth it (can't be togged to death, cant be burned or otherwise targeted by even swords). Not to mention It's castable. Often, especially with three colors, double W isn't always accessible. Iridescent is the perfect use for Mana Drain. If you have to save counters for your creatures' safety, then you're not winning. Why not play a creature that doesn't need your backup support?

Besides Tog isn't that big of a deal in my area.......yet..... :shock:

@RoadTrippin': Been over it many times and ideally I would love to see black in this deck. This opens up the floodgates for many options.
again, I would absolutely LOVE to play black in here, but like I said, I've done it before, and it was unsuccessful, so my morale kinda dropped.

As for EBA, yep it's a cool decklist. The cards involved (namely the Lands) are expensive and also hard to find on the Cape. But think, we're "opening up the floodgates" as I said. Now we have a huge amount of options for cards and it just makes it more confusing.
Black:

Negator: Just a dangerous play if I can afford something better conditioned
Duress: A great and amazing card of unimaginable power
VinD: A nice killer, I wouldn't run more than two I assume tho
Demonic Tutor: DUH! :shock:
Vamp Tutor: maybe, I don't think I need it if I'm going to play Mystical.
Yawg Will: I guess I could find a space for it, but it's not as important than the other cards I'd want to add.
Shadowmage: I love this card, but unfortunately, if I can't work out the mana, I will still be playing the Phids.
Mind Twist: Idk about this card, I never did. I might be able to pull it off with this deck.

The problem I have is with the mana. Does anyone have an idea as to how I would make it so I have the right mana when possible? Also, the way I play my deck now, I have few non-basics, making it less weak against Moon and Strips etc. I liked it the way it was, but if Black will make the deck more playable I will have to suffer the possible threats.

The Sideboard I forgot. It looks something like this:

SB:
4 Null Rod
2 Serenity
3 Energy Flux
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 hurkyl's Recall
2 Wing Shards
1 Disenchant

somewhat jumbled, but the Flux's and the Rods are the important part

@Smash: 4 is good. StP is my saviour in EVERY SINGLE MATCHUP.

@Sytupal: cut your spamming fool

Peace

[Rico Suave]

If you have to save counters for your creatures' safety, then you're not winning. Why not play a creature that doesn't need your backup support?

No, instead you have to counter so many other things that Angel's life gain would otherwise handle, things like Tog.  

Quite simply, Exalted dominates the board when it hits, and it hits a lot earlier than Iridescent does.  With a Mox in hand, it will begin swinging turn 3.  With a Mox, Iridescent will start swinging on turn 7, assuming you didn't miss any land drops.  Big difference.

[Smash]

Smash, that whole not running black thing cuts shadowmage from a list of choices.

True that.

I don't like just U/W then. R or B is much better than W to me.

[Mixing Mike]

Vamp Tutor: maybe, I don't think I need it if I'm going to play Mystical.
Yawg Will: I guess I could find a space for it, but it's not as important than the other cards I'd want to add.
Shadowmage: I love this card, but unfortunately, if I can't work out the mana, I will still be playing the Phids.

Yawgmoth's Win is a good card to play.  I mean, it says 'Win' in it.  How can you ever say you'd rather play something over an 'I win' card?

Vamp fetches stuff that Mystical can't, at the cost of B, and 2 life.  Nobody kills these days by dealing damage anyways, so what's 2 life.  It's like cutting Scrying in Keeper for the loss of life argument.  If I were to pay Mystical in a UWB.deck, I'd play Vamp over it anyday.  But that's just my flavor.

SMI is horrible.  The Drains are key for Ophidians.  No Ophisians, then go ahead and play SMI.  Phids off a Drain with backup is a great feeling.

Also, Exalted Angel works VERY well with Drains.  Since he doesn't have any access to them, I can kinda understand why he's play the other angel.  I'd personally still play Exhalted, Drains or no Drains.  Madness can only take it out with a 6/6 token if they run it, and TnT only has Duplicant (okay, good answer here) and crazy Trisk/Welder tricks to remove it.  It really is the biggest fat out there for white.  It can even block 'more than one creature' in a sense.  Besides, the WW casting cost isnt a problem if you're running 11 white mana sources and 4 Fetches.

[EDIT]: So what if he's not running Black, I still felt like commenting.

[Fëanor]

No, instead you have to counter so many other things that Angel's life gain would otherwise handle, things like Tog.

If she Lasts that long...

I see the point on Exalted about as much as I did before, but I am still weighing everything at once. Speed is not a problem. Turn seven is fine with me just as long as I don't have to worry about losing my control. Exalted is obviously still very powerful, but it's weak. It is obvious that exalted can be burned and removed by whatever creature control your opponent could throw at it. Iridescent Angel survives almost everything. I can gain control enough if I don't have to waste my counters on an StP. Instead I waste my counters on keeping their defenses empty.
In an aggro matchup I get rid of beef and that's simple with StP and counters. In combo I usually have control over whatever combo with the help of Meddlings. In control I have the hardest time. This is where decree wins me games.

I have more kill than 2 little angels. I've got 2 DoJ, 4 Phids, and 3 MMs.

Peace

[Smash]

SMI is horrible. The Drains are key for Ophidians. No Ophisians, then go ahead and play SMI. Phids off a Drain with backup is a great feeling.

SMI is not horrible. SMI >> phid. Casting him is harder if you have massive artifact (off color) acel and drains, which is what makes phid the better choice in most colored decks. You can NOT deney that a SMI in play is > a phid in play. He has 2 drains and no off color moxen. If one of his colors was black, SMI would be >> phid. However without black, this is the wrong place to discuss it

[Blackest Lotus]

No, instead you have to counter so many other things that Angel's life gain would otherwise handle, things like Tog.

If she Lasts that long...

I see the point on Exalted about as much as I did before, but I am still weighing everything at once. Speed is not a problem. Turn seven is fine with me just as long as I don't have to worry about losing my control. Exalted is obviously still very powerful, but it's weak. It is obvious that exalted can be burned and removed by whatever creature control your opponent could throw at it. Iridescent Angel survives almost everything. I can gain control enough if I don't have to waste my counters on an StP. Instead I waste my counters on keeping their defenses empty.
In an aggro matchup I get rid of beef and that's simple with StP and counters. In combo I usually have control over whatever combo with the help of Meddlings. In control I have the hardest time. This is where decree wins me games.

I have more kill than 2 little angels. I've got 2 DoJ, 4 Phids, and 3 MMs.

Peace

How can speed not be a problem? This is Type 1, the fastest format there is, and you say speed doesn't matter? Thats slightly perplexing. I don't think there is any metagame where speed isn't something you have to take into consideration. There is only one thing that Crapidescent angel has over the White Morphling, the overrated protection from all colors crap.
The only thing it protects from is STP. There are very few fliers used that are bigger than a 4/4, if at all. So there is no need to be concerned about blockers, and why would you care to block with it, when you are making 8 point life swings?

Exalted is better because
50 times faster than Crapidescent
Has a bigger behind
No two diferent color mana costs
Nets no mana when Drained.
Much cooler

Exalted, burned? Counter the 2nd bolt. Seriously, you shouldnt have much trouble with Sligh or other random small creature aggro, EA owns those decks. I will repeat again Protection from all colors is not even close to how many advantages White Morphling has. Not even close, especially when said ability is overrated and matters little on a 7cc piece of shit.

EXALTED WINS EVERY SINGLE TIME PERIOD

[Sytupal]

Both sides of this situation have their arguments.   I'm not about to supprt any one side to the extremes but just simply offer a situation.    

The metagame here where Feanor and myself play is rather scrubby as most of you all know.   It's getting better but the players that are starting to get into competitive type 1 are younger kids that like the aggro builds such as Oshawa or GPR or bad extended based Tog builds etc.   Combo is of very little importance in the metagame and all of the artifact builds are turning into some sort of mindslaver variant or are being taken apart.  These decks are fast, however the players piloting them aren't.  In the current situation Irridescept, Crapdescent, noob angel descent whatever is the better choice.   There are too many goblin players trying to play type 1, too many white based control decks running 4 swords to plowshares, etc etc.   No one is taking the local metagame into consideration and quite frankly that's annoying that no one has even asked.


Yes, Exalted angel is a much faster win.  But he's not looking for a fast win.  If he was he'd go play Combo-esque hulk.  Playing against what we're used to, it's not that hard to stabilize the game long enough to get the mana for an Irridescent Angel.  

Yes, in a perfect metagame with only decks that are already proven then Exalted may be a better option, but if that were the case he wouldn't be playing this and he'd be playing Zherbus' keeper.  

I partially put the fault on Feanor for not properly explaining our metagame however everyone making judgemental calls should have stopped to think about it,  he doesn't go and play in every tournament hadley holds, or every tournament even we hold. etc etc.  

Metagame call asks for Irridescent Angel as a stable kill and if nothing else a very well protected blocker against all the aggro running around giving him time to throw out those 5,6, or 7 soldier tokens with Decree, or those 1 or 2 angels.

[jpmeyer]

If you kill 3 turns earlier, that's three fewer turns that your opponent has to draw Swords to Plowshares

[Rico Suave]

The fact that Iridescent Angel neutralizes StP is weak in comparison to Exalted Angel neutralizing your opponent's entire side of the board.

[Sytupal]

But doesn't Irridescent do the same Rico?

[Rico Suave]

No, it doesn't.  

Seriously, Iridescent is worse than Morphling and that hasn't been used in how long now?

[jpmeyer]

How does Iridescent Angel do that?  All it does is an unpreventable 4 damage a turn.  That's it.

[Sytupal]

The fact that Iridescent Angel neutralizes StP is weak in comparison to Exalted Angel neutralizing your opponent's entire side of the board.

You know, I'm not one to admit i was wrong but im not quite sure what i was on when i was making my earlier argument....  Don't mind my drunken self.  


I was trying to think of reasons why Irridescent Angel, besides neutralizing 4/4s from GPR or Oshawa or dealing 4 a turn to your opponent, is a better choice than exalted.      

Besides the life gain given by Exalted,  the 5 toughness is able to block an Arrogant Wurm without dying(just like an irridescent(and gives you life at the same time)   and it can block the hidden gibbons the turn after in the same game doing the same.    

The only difference, and what ia huge difference it is,  is that The Exalted will survive when blocking the platinum angel that is swinging at your dome or the su-chi or the 4/4 smokestack turned creature by karn.   The Exalted and the irridescent both will die from a hastey or non hastey juggernaut but the exalted will gain you life.  


The point i am making here(thus proving my other statements wrong)

Is that

Both angels will survive from combat damage done by any creature with power of 4 or less.  

Both will survive from a lightning bolt hit.  

Both will die with a well times diabolic edict.

Irridescent may survive a swords to plowshares,..  But in the ever popular builds of TNT, Stack, Mud etc, which angel will survive the smack down from 4 power colorless creatures?    

Now that it's been thought about I'd much rather choose to counter the 1-4 stp's from my opponents deck than the 12-16 fats thrown at me with a power of 4.   and Flipping up as soon as turn 4 without any acceleration(which is improbable) to gain you 4 life is good enough in my books...  
*sigh*  being wrong is annoying.

[Fëanor]

So some things have actually been brought to point about the strengths and weaknesses of each, which if wanting feedback on my creature choice at all, I would take to have come down to reveal the truth of the matter. Exalted > Iridescent in almost all cases.

But the real truth of the matter is my lack of having Exalteds due to the fact that people are hoardy and greedy and refuse to trade theirs away, since everyone is using them for something. Truth = Tiki has no Exalteds

Ok, so now that we've wasted all this time on one creature and not really propelled the deck's other aspects, why not get back to the reason I wrote this call of help.

Another truth be told, I've never actually thought a deck like this would BENEFIT from having three color support. My experience with tri-color decks was many sad times. I just never seemed to find the right balance, and bi-color always worked faster anyway. I must admit, using this deck for a while, I see that one of the most important things is to have that special card whenever you need it. Tutors come in with force here and black has the only fetch-all tutors worth playing. Another, and possibly the single reason for the drive to make myself splash black is the unimaginable power of the Duress. I have loved this card since Saga spoilers came out. so that will be a must addition to the deck.
But as I said before, there's already a lot in this deck I wouldnt want to remove. So what to get rid of, to leave space for black goodness?

I'll provide my thoughts when I'm not so sleepy

Peace

[DEA]

Truth = Tiki has no Exalteds

this has got to be a major slap in the face for people bitching about why you're using iridescent angels  :lol:  :lol:

[kirdape3]

This... is Type One.  Go whore yourself on the street for the $60 you'll need to annex a playset from the local store.  Complaining about not having in-print cards means nothing (despite myself not owning more than one since I had my playset stolen) - you're only allowed to complain about not having a set of four that are individually that much.

[Smash]

Truth = Tiki has no Exalteds

this has got to be a major slap in the face for people bitching about why you're using iridescent angels  :lol:  :lol:

No, it means this should be on the budget forum.

[Fëanor]

I didn't say I wasn't planning on getting them. I certainly have the money. I just liked the other angel better. Whether the deck has 2 Iridescents or 2 Exalteds doesn't really make a difference to the consistency of the deck. Either way, there's a creature taking up that space. If it will make people happy, those spaces are officially Exalteds. I thought i stressed it enough last post, but I guess I didn't, sorry.

Now, let's talk about the things I made this thread for. Thank you.

Peace