Mana Burn

[wonkey_donkey]

I shouldn't really have to ask this, but when does mana burn happen? Specifically, if you pay mana during your precombat main phase, does it stay there until afterwards? For example take eladmiri's vineyard - if I have no mana sink for it, when does the damage actually happen? Immediately before combat, or immediately after the postcombat main phase? Have checked the rules on crystalkeep, but it seemed a bit unclear, as it called both the main phases "the main phase" whilst saying that mana burn happens at end of a phase. Help would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Tom

[cssamerican]

This is the best thing I have ever found and it will answer your question and many more where timing is concerned...Maybe someone could put something like this here on themanadrain.
http://www.essentialmagic.com/Rules/TurnStructure.asp
The first Main phase is where the the mana triggered my Eladmiri's Vineyard is added to your mana pool. There is a mana burn step before the combat phase; therefore if you can't use the mana before the combat phase you will take damge from mana burn before combat occurs.

[Jaapmans]

I open the Comprehensive Rules, I CTRL+F on mana burn and find...

300.3: When a phase ends (but not a step), any unused mana left in a player's mana pool is lost. That player loses 1 life for each one mana lost this way. This is called mana burn. Note that mana burn is loss of life, not damage, so it can't be prevented or altered by effects that affect damage. This game action doesn't use the stack. (See rule 406, "Mana Abilities.") (Rules Version Date: February 1, 2004.

Jaap

[wonkey_donkey]

Thanks very much cssamerican, that's a very useful link!

@Jaap:

I read that as well, I'm not that stupid... however, when I looked first under main phase, I found...
305.1 - There are two main phases in a turn. In each turn, the first main phase, known as the precombat main phase, and the second main phase, known as the postcombat main phase, are separated by the combat phase (see Rule 306, "Combat Phase"). The precombat and postcombat main phases are individually and collectively known as the main phase.
Can you now see why I was confused? Sorry to be a little irritable, but I didn't think the tone of your post was completely necessary.

Tom

[Jebus]

Each is referred to as "the main phase" or as "the pre-/post- combat main phase" where appropriate.

However, they are individual phases and you will take mana burn at the end of each of them, just like every other phase.

[rvs]

@Tom: Actually, I don't think Jaap's tone was condescending, I just think that's how you read it.

He just wants to say that answers are around the corner if you use the CompRules. For that matter, I'd take his advice on it too.  And then he just c/p-ed the relevant part where the answer is hidden. If he hadn't done it, I would have.

[Jaapmans]

@Jaap:
<snip>

No problem, no offense ment, no offense taken. For your information:

There's five phases in a turn and some of these phases have steps:

Beginning phase
- Untap step
- Upkeep step
- Draw step

Main phase (pre-combat)

Combat phase
- beginning of combat step
- declare attackers step
- declare blockers step
- combat damage step
- end of combat step

Main phase (post-combat)

End phase
- end of turn step
- clean up step

At the end of each and every phase, mana burn is taken. Eladamri's Vineyard triggers at the pre-combat main phase so you'll take that burn in the pre-combat main phase. This is very obvious from the Oracle wording of the card (see below).

Eladamri's Vineyard: |Enchantment| At the beginning of each player's precombat main phase, add GG to that player's mana pool. TE-R

If you mana drain a spell in your own beginning phase, own pre-combat main phase or own combat phase, you'll get the mana in your post-combat main phase. This is something a lot of players don't know actually and play wrong. This comes just from the wording of mana drain by the way (pay attention to the ''next main phase"):

Mana Drain: {UU} |Instant| Counter target spell. At the beginning of your next main phase, add X to your mana pool, where X is that spell's converted mana cost. LE-U1 (Oracle Version Date: February 1, 2004.

Chears,
Jaap

[TracerBullet]

Two things about your response-

If you mana drain a spell in your own beginning phase, you'll get the mana in your post-combat mainphase.

Are you sure about this?  It would certainly seem to be that the next Mainphase after your Beginning phase is the pre-combat mainphase, not the post-combat mainphase.

own pre-combat main phase or own combat phase, you'll get the mana in your post-combat main phase. This is something a lot of players don't know actually and play wrong. This comes just from the wording of mana drain by the way (pay attention to the ''next main phase"):

Mana Drain: {UU} |Instant| Counter target spell. At the beginning of your next main phase, add X to your mana pool, where X is that spell's converted mana cost. LE-U1 (Oracle Version Date: February 1, 2004.

This is due to an important point that many old veterans mistake- Each turn, you MUST take each phase, including your attack phase.  I believe this was changed from the way things used to work (either from 5th to 6th ed or from 6th to 7th), where you did not have to declare an attack phase if you did not want to.  This is very important to keep in mind when playing against opponents who like to just brazenly cast spells on their own turns- sometimes you'll catch them off guard.

[wonkey_donkey]

I shouldn't really have to ask this, but when does mana burn happen? Specifically...

I think I may have overreacted. I did use the comp rules first, I was just misled by the thing about main phases. I did, however, make my question sound as though I knew nothing about mana burn at all, so I can understand why Jaap posted what he did. It was a bad time for me to be posting, probably - too much work... damn russian revolution essays... My bad, sorry.

Tom

[Jaapmans]

Two things about your response-

If you mana drain a spell in your own beginning phase, you'll get the mana in your post-combat mainphase.

Are you sure about this?  It would certainly seem to be that the next Mainphase after your Beginning phase is the pre-combat mainphase, not the post-combat mainphase.

You are very right. My bad.

Jaap

[virtual]

"So, if you mana drain something pre-combat.  Do you get that mana post-combat, or next turn at the beginning of the main phase.
-Virtual

[TracerBullet]

See, that's exactly the thing.  The next mainphase after the Pre-Combat Mainphase (or even during the Combat Phase) IS the post-combat mainphase.  


To give an example-  If you Mana Drain a Disenchant played during either your Pre-Combat Mainphase or your Combat Phase, you get 2 colorless mana during your Post-Combat Mainphase.  This is mandatory- there is no way in which to get the two mana during your next turn.

[Jaapmans]

Apparently I didn't explain clearly as a lot of members feel the need to spill their 2 cents. I appologize for that.