A more balance time walk

[wizmentor]

Time Waltz
RG
Sorcery
Take an extra turn after this one.  Any opponent may remove any number of blue cards and artifact cards from your graveyard, hand, and library.

Edit:
As suggested, the newer language is more clearer.
Time Waltz
RG
Sorcery
Target player takes another turn after this one.  Any opponent may remove any number of blue cards and artifact cards from your graveyard, hand, library, and in-play zone from the game.

Now, it's misdirectable, and your mana artifacts are removed from play as well.

Edit:
Frenzy
RG
Sorcery
Discard your hand:  Untap all Red and Green creatures that attacked this turn. After
this phase, there is an additional combat phase followed
by an additional main phase.

[The Grim Reaper]

Time Waltz
RG
Sorcery
Take an extra turn after this one.  Any opponent may remove any number of blue cards and artifact cards from your graveyard, hand, and library.

Bahahaha!!!....

Ok but seriously, this is ridiculous.

As you may have noticed, this costs 1 Red and 1 Green mana. How is removing all the blue cards from your deck (and artifact w/e) hand, and graveyard a draw back in an obviousley 2 colored deck. Any R/G aggro deck in the world would run 4 of these.

Consider Time Warp, it is balanced at 5 mana. Also, this is NOT in flavor for red or green.

Ahhh this card is simply horrible and overpowered.

Here's a suggestion to fix it: Make its casting Cost UU3 and say "Target player takes another turn after this one".

Sorry,

Grim

[Jacob Orlove]

2 mana is way too cheap for a Time Walk. Food Chain Goblins would break this card so hard, it would bounce.

[wizmentor]

Time Waltz
RG
Sorcery
Take an extra turn after this one.  Any opponent may remove any number of blue cards and artifact cards from your graveyard, hand, and library.

Bahahaha!!!....

Ok but seriously, this is ridiculous.

As you may have noticed, this costs 1 Red and 1 Green mana. How is removing all the blue cards from your deck (and artifact w/e) hand, and graveyard a draw back in an obviousley 2 colored deck. Any R/G aggro deck in the world would run 4 of these.

Consider Time Warp, it is balanced at 5 mana. Also, this is NOT in flavor for red or green.

Ahhh this card is simply horrible and overpowered.

Here's a suggestion to fix it: Make its casting Cost UU3 and say "Target player takes another turn after this one".

Sorry,

Grim

Well, I guess I respectfully disagree.
No RG deck has been Tier 1 in a very long time.  If this were
restricted, this would give it a bump.  Without artifact
mana, taking an extra turn is basically taking an
extra attack phase, which is good, but not braz-oken.

As for flavor, I think R&D would probably agree with
you - but I wouldn't.  Blue is the color of trickiness.
There's nothing tricky about taking another turn - it's just
powerful.  As Oscar Tan would say, Time Walk gives you:

Another untap phase
Another upkeep phase
Another draw phase (it's a cantrip)
and Another Attack phase.

Getting another attack phase is not "in flavor"
for blue.

However, I do like your amended language.

One more thing, Time Warp is not a type 1 quality card, which
this is indended to be.  I tried to come up with a type 1
card that has an appropriate and interesting "drawback."
What is often done is to give a card a larger casting cost.

2 mana is way too cheap for a Time Walk. Food Chain Goblins would break this card so hard, it would bounce.

Let's look at a currentish FCG list:
//NAME: Goblin Chains - Joshua Silvestri (Vegeta2711) - Jan. 2004
// Mana
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Chrome Mox
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills

5 Mountain
// Combo Card
4 Food Chain
// Creatures
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
2 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Goblin Matron
3 Gempalm Incinerator

3 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Recruiter
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Skirk Prospector
4 Goblin Lackey

This deck cannot compete in a Type 1 metagame without
the 7 mana artifacts.

I really think the card is powerful, but not broken.
Not nearly as good as Yagwin.  Not nearly as good
as time walk because of the colors, let alone the
drawback.

I think you guys are really underestimating the effect of the drawback.
Of the top 18 decks outlined by Kerz, only landstill and Mask did not
run the full moxen.  Of course, these strategies would not run this
card.

[brendan]

When FCG casts this, it has already dropped the artifact mana from its opening hand and the turn(s) it's had. All the "drawback" on this card would serve to achieve is making the combo less likely to fizzle, and give them more business cards if they use the beatdown route.

[Matt]

Not to mention that this would horribly break r/g decks NOT in type one.

[skecreatoR]

It is another turn for two. Just using the already cheap green creatures and Seething Song, you have combo in a few seconds. It is just so easy to deal around 8-12 damage early, and then get overwhelmed when playing R/G, but with this, you deal twice the amount. What about making it 2RG instead? 1 for the fact that it is R/G, another 1 for the fact that this is actually timewalk in those decks.

[stijndon]

Then it would just become a sucky Relentless Assault.

Perhaps you could make it just RG, but make yourself get "Wind-of-Denial'ed." That unleashes a 7UU sorcery upon yourself, in exchange for a good effect. It does seem funny, and getting capped for seven cards might harm your ability to do the foodchain/ringleader thingy.

[Ocifer]

You really want to balance Time Walk? about the only reasonable way is to remove all artifacts and land in play. Then the extra turn earns you "just an extra attack phase". And at least then the cost is actually proportional. And forget all this idiotic crap about removing cards from your library and your graveyard, that's just moronic. Piling drawbacks on a good ability has never been a good way to make a good ability balanced.
As always, this card will never, never, be balanced. No matter what the drawback is that you give it, it will either always be too good or too bad. It will never be balanced, so give it up.

[Razvan]

Not to mention that this would horribly break r/g decks NOT in type one.

Whoa... there are other formats?

[wizmentor]

When FCG casts this, it has already dropped the artifact mana from its opening hand and the turn(s) it's had. All the "drawback" on this card would serve to achieve is making the combo less likely to fizzle, and give them more business cards if they use the beatdown route.

I thought about that, and that's why I changed the card so that all of your artifacts in play are removed from the game.  Note also that it says "may" remove.

Not to mention that this would horribly break r/g decks NOT in type one.

I don't think it would be nearly as format-defining as skullclamp, especially in a block adjacent to mirrodin.  Heck, It may not be even as format defining as fires of yavimaya.

Is it powerful? Yes!  That's the idea.  Is it p9?  Absolutely not.  The basic idea is to give a powerful, but non-distorting, card to a color combination that has been destroyed in recent years (in Type 1).   Red and Green are the 2 enemies of blue and artifacts, and I tried to design the card with the color wheel in mind.  Some of you don't like it, but I think it's an elegant solution.

     -superdad

[wizmentor]

Some of the suggested changes have been made.

I think it's clear that this card was designed for type 1.
It's an attempt to give some power to a card combination that
has generally been languishing


Initiate 24 hour clock

[Jacob Orlove]

Even if you're designing for T1, the card still needs to be fair in T2 and limited. This isn't.

[brendan]

This card is unprintable in its current state. The drawback is weird and fairly pointless, and the effect is overpowered. It needs a much stronger drawback if you want to leave it costed at RG. Maybe "Remove all non-land permanants you control from the game" or "Remove all lands you control from the game".

[Ephraim]

Or, instead of allowing an opponent to remove only blue or artifact creatures (although that's a very R/G thing to do), you could allow them to remove any 7 (5?) cards from your library and/or hand. But then, it doesn't really feel like a R/G card anymore.

[DerangedHermit]

How about this?

Time Rip (RG, Sorcery)
Take an extra turn after this one. Skip your next untap and draw phase.

[Ocifer]

I was thinking something along these lines:

Time Waltz
RG
Sorcery
This card is a horrible idea. Close it now.

Sorry for the blatant sarcasm, but this card is completely unbalanceable. It is undercosted and there is no drawback you can give it to fix that, unless you find one so bad that it makes the card useless.

Again: This card will never be balanced. It will either be broken and too good, or useless and too bad.

[dandan]

How about forgetting about the extra turn? Seriously. Ignore that nasty Blue card draw.

Just get on with smashing face

Frenzy
RG
Sorcery
Untap a permanent you control.
Any opponent may remove up to 3 cards of their choice from your library or graveyard. If they do untap that number of permanents you control.
If a creature is untapped in this way, you may attack with it even if it has previously attacked this turn.

That does a pseudoTimeWalk and a pseudoRelentless Assault, is cheap and frenzied creatures are in flavour for Green and Red.

Yes I did mean it to give Haste, it is fairly weak.

[wizmentor]

Even if you're designing for T1, the card still needs to be fair in T2 and limited. This isn't.

You're right, of course.  Here's what I was trying to do:
1)  create a card that was type 1 relevant.
2)  create a card that was flavored against blue and artifacts.
3)  create a card that was powerful.

There seems to be a consensus that the card is overpowered.
Keeping in mind the above 3 criteria, I think I've some wording
people can live with.  Here it is:

Frenzy
RG
Sorcery
Discard your hand:  Untap all Red and Green creatures that attacked this turn. After
this phase, there is an additional combat phase followed
by an additional main phase.

one may compare it to Relentless Assault:
Relentless Assault
2RR
Sorcery
Untap all creatures that attacked this turn. After
this phase, there is an additional combat phase followed
by an additional main phase.

High casting cost is a death knell (sp?) to Type 1.  In exchange for the smaller
casting cost, you must supply 2 different colored mana, and you must
discard your hand.

I think these disadvantages make it not superstrong in other formats,
but stronger in the "balls to the walls" Type 1.

Comment?

[Tijnie]

I haven't been following this threath really, but this is in short words what came to my mind. It is prety balanced, but still it would be very cool

Time Waltz
RG
Sorcery
Take an extra turn after thuis one. After that turn, all opponents gain an aditonal turn after theirs.

Agrro can work with this just fine, playing it turn 3-4 might give you that turn you need, but if you don't kill... you'll have a huge problem .

could this make it to type1? or would this be to strong for FCG, TnT, Tog? (they use artifact mutation too).

[Jacob Orlove]

I haven't been following this threath really, but this is in short words what came to my mind. It is prety balanced, but still it would be very cool :)

Time Waltz
RG
Sorcery
Take an extra turn after thuis one. After that turn, all opponents gain an aditonal turn after theirs.

Agrro can work with this just fine, playing it turn 3-4 might give you that turn you need, but if you don't kill... you'll have a huge problem :) .

could this make it to type1? or would this be to strong for FCG, TnT, Tog? (they use artifact mutation too).

That's like a cooler version of Final Fortune. I like it.

[Matt]

One must ask, why are red and green messing with the flow of time?

[Ocifer]

Time Waltz
RG
Sorcery
Take an extra turn after this one. After that turn, all opponents gain an additional turn after theirs.

I don't see this so much as messing with the flow of time, Matt, as this card would be more like a Haste effect for the player and all his creatures. The name would need to be completely changed, but this card is very nearly decent, though I think still too powerful (add 1 to the cost).

Flavor wise, some kind of accelerant or frenzy is induced which causes the player and all of his creatures to go all out against the opponent, but then they must hibernate to make up for the spent energy.

I think the card would be must better and less abusable like this:
Induced Frenzy
RG
Sorcery
Take an extra turn after this one. You may not play spells (*or abilities? *or lands?) during that turn. After that turn, all opponents gain an additional turn after theirs.

This card, I think, might be balanced. And now it is not abusable by combo or prison decks (which the version quoted would easily be abused by).