Gay/r: my attempts at a primer

[xaos]

Removed.  You people obviously don't want a discussion about innovating new ideas.

[Moxlotus]

Why would you ever wan to cut a curiosity?  I know it is because you only have 13 creatures but I would bump up the creature count so you can play 4 curiosities.

[MooSE]

I do not agree with the amount of curiosities, you really need 4.  I also prefer 4 spiketails.  But i admit, i have no clue on what to take out to get them in.  

Also, i saw someone do something once, it was a really good idea (i thought).  Rather than making a sideboard, make a list of sideboard cards, that way people can make their own sideboard for their meta using the list.

[jazzykat]

From playing against fish, with my many different decks I can tell you that curiosity is a big problem for the opponent. I usually allow creatures to hit (can't stop them all) but I never allow curiosities or standstills to hit. Curiosities on creatures I can't block are a punch in the balls. I am currently looking for a way to up my fire and ice count in my deck in order to deal with damn weenies!

For anyone who wants to add the last curiosity:

- 2 daze
+1 spike tail
+1 curiosity

Voila! You in effect only lost one daze and have the truly fearsome curiosity power!

Then if your opponent sees daze in your first game you can side them out and make them ph34r the daze, and play cautiosuly, while you have more useful hate against them.

[Justinsane]

personally i am not a fan of voidmage.  I feel that he is to slow for the matchups you would actually need him in.  I feel that you do not need 4 daze.  I think 4 spiketails are good and 4 curiousity are necessary.  I also love stifle.  I don't feel that 3 maindeck fire/ice are needed.  I think maybe some more creatures would help out.

-2 daze
-2 voidmage
-2 fire/ice   (moved to sideboard)
+1 spiketail
+1 curiosity
+2 stifle
+2 goblin vandal (for my metagame)
my 2 cents

[Hi-Val]

Voidmages are old and busted. Vandals are the new hotness.

The classic weakness with Fish is the aggro and the Stax match. Fish runs on few permanents and hopes to win the game through denying the opponent mana. Workshop cranks so much mana that it is ineffective. Vandal takes care of that by blasting the mana, and can in itself create a lock. Because many Stax decks run no direct removal, an early Vandal with enough permanents to dodge Tangle Wire can seal the game.

The Aggro matchup is a crapshoot. You can use Fire/Ice like the OP did, of course. I feel that maindecking F/I weakens the threats, as you already have Lavamancers to ping things away. I like Sigil of Sleeep and Sword of Fire/Ice myself on the sideboard to deal with such problems.

[Nantuko Rice]

ew voidmage. hate him, to slow. UU to cast and UU to use are to much for me.

my gay-r build uses no null rods.

-3 null rod
-3 curiosty
-2 voidmage

+1 spiketail
+ mask of memory
+ stifle
+ rootwater thief
+1 sol ring

spiketails are good, very good. good enough to play 4 of IMO.

I don't like curiosity at all. It's bad card advantage when they kill the creature. I like sol rings, mask, and rootwater thief. Thief will pick apart combo and control (if theyre win is a few psychatogs or decrees). I feel stifle deserves maindeck slots because one aspect of fish is it's tempo and thus mana denial. Stifle a fetchland and your opponent is slowed down by another land.

Dazes, Spiketails, Stifles, 5 strips all cause headache

thats just imo... of course as others pointed out, vandals are looking good now.

[xaos]

You care not about my opinions, so Removed they Are.

[Raven Fire]

my gay-r build uses no null rods.

Gay/R = NullRod.dec

ps - I <3 Hi-Val's Vandals.  They're dead sexy.
pps - Vise is a card to consider for the board.

[xaos]

Removed.

[Shaman]

I would suggest Viashino Heretic too, maybe as a sideboard option. A viashino heretic in play is simply game against any artifact player...it costs 3 mana and can be used in the late game, where goblin vandal couldn't be used because of a Chalice set at one. Viashino also takes care of those big fat boys known as Juggernaut, Su-Chi, Platinum Angel, etc. and that ugly things like mindslaver...moreover, it is a huge help in the mirror and against landstill (no mishra, no party   ).

My 2 eurocents

[M]

I've been looking for a good answer to things such as Chalice for 2 and 1, as that can really ruin a man's day.  I know Rack and Ruin works, but with all the arti-hate cards from the board having cc=3, this has also become a chalice target.  Is there a decent solution, that is resilient enough to have more than just that application?

Hey, if you have to deal with three chalices for 1, 2, and 3 then you're out of luck. Two chalices you can still play around if your chalice removal is 3cc, because you will either be able to remove it or have one window left open to cast spells in. Chalices aren't a huge problem for this deck in my experience. You have lots of chalice-proof stuff (e.g. FoW, manlands, and the cycling ability of cloud of faeries comes in handy here).
In fact, I have experimented with 3 chalices in maindeck red fish, supplemented with 2 [card]rebuild[/card] which has great many uses in this deck (chalice removal, artifact prison hoser, cycling ability!).

On the deck in the original post let me say that it looks great from here.

Curiosity may be some decks worst nightmare to play against, but that doesn't mean cutting one is a mistake if it greatly improves concistency. I run only 2 maindeck null rods for the same reason (+1 in sideboard). Cutting the blue mox (which btw is the only mox I own) is also something I've been doing lately. It just has too much bad synergy with the rest of the deck. Spiketails I do not like; I do not agree with the 'you must run both spiketail and daze' theory. I run 3 maindeck daze, and they just rock; no spiketails needed. I swear by [card]flying men[/card] instead as one of the defining creatures of this deck. It is at least worthy of honorable mention. It has speed and synergy, it fills up the missing 1-drop slots in the decks mana curve, and it is the only reason why I am still running 4 curiosity maindeck.

[xaos]

Removed.

[M]

Curve?  

I believe in the mana curve in the sense that if you go 'island, go' on your first turn and are stuck with nothing but , , or  {U} spells and three available mana on turn three, then you could have done better. Spending all your mana every turn is more important for this deck than for most other decks in the current T1 meta.

[xaos]

Given up on trying to focus this thread.  The posts here belong in the Sui Black forum.

[Autojive]

Has anyone thought about sideboarding Aether Vial? I started doing it since Landstill has showed up quite a bit in my meta.

Aether Vial
1
Artifact
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may put a charge counter on Aether Vial.
Tap: You may put a creature card with converted mana cost equal to the number of charge counters on Aether Vial from your hand into play.

There have been quite a few times where I've gone:

Turn 1: Island, Aether Vial, go
Turn 2: put counter on Aether Vial, Land, play Standstill, tap Aether Vial: play Grim Lavamancer
Turn 3: Put counter on Aether Vial,  Land, play 2cc creature off Vial
Turn 4+: Wash, Rinse, Repeat until Standstill is broken

It also makes a nice surprise element when the opponent thinks they are safe to play a bomb when you are tapped out (Aether Vial in Cloud of Faeries, untap 2 lands, use Voidmage's ability).

I'm interested in everyone's thoughts on this. Do you think Aether Vial would make the cut in a competitive deck?

[Jacob Orlove]

It also makes a nice surprise element when the opponent thinks they are safe to play a bomb when you are tapped out (Aether Vial in Cloud of Faeries, untap 2 lands, use Voidmage's ability).
 

Actually, that doesn't work. Cloud of Faeries, like Palinchron, Great Whale, Preist of Gix, and a couple other mana-generating creatures, has been errata'd to only work if you played it from your hand (like hypnox). This stopped a few annoying infinite combos back when they were T2 legal.

[Autojive]

Actually, that doesn't work. Cloud of Faeries, like Palinchron, Great Whale, Preist of Gix, and a couple other mana-generating creatures, has been errata'd to only work if you played it from your hand (like hypnox). This stopped a few annoying infinite combos back when they were T2 legal.

D'oh! Thanks for the clarification, Jacob. I won't make that mistake again and as long as it still works with Standstills I'll keep testing it out in my version.

[xaos]

Removal of good information is not fun, nor productive.

[MooSE]

If it hasn't already been said, i think the Voidmage slot is the most controversial slot.  

I believe i have sort of a solution based on meta.  In a combo heavier meta, use Rootwater Theif.  You still need to save the mana, but if it's not used after your attack phase you can use it in the second main phase.  In an aggro heavier environment waterfront bouncer would be a good choice.  He also helps fuel Lavamancer.  In a control heavy environment i would keep the voidmage, you need a counter that can be activated under standstill and can't be countered.

[Lonely`]

right now im using razorfin hunter in that spot, as he is incredible in t he miror and likes to eat opposing welders:>

[Raven Fire]

right now im using razorfin hunter in that spot, as he is incredible in t he miror and likes to eat opposing welders:>

Are you using Razorfins and Lavamancers?

[Lonely`]

yes, definetely

[Tijnie]

I believe i have sort of a solution based on meta.  In a combo heavier meta, use Rootwater Theif.  

sorry I really have to dis-agree with you here. at the best, your thief will go remove 1 card in turn 3.. and you don't even know if they even would have drawn it anyway.. Most combo use tutors so they'll find any unrestricted and important card they need for the combo anyway.
Isn't Combo ment to kill you turn 2-3?. so, you might just say that you're tfief is a bit slow here?. I even prefer voidmage, just as slow, but you will counter a card they PLAY so at least you stop a card that they want to play, and your lavamancers start acting like counterspells   .

Another replacement often said is Goblin Vandal.. yes it is strong I can't deny that, but you're replacing 3 blue cards for 3 red cards. You'll find yourself unhappy with several FoW's unless you're holding back. As far as I know, Agrro shouldn't be holding back and that obviously counts for fish since it already kills slow. With 3 Rods maindeck, and nice Artifact hate in the sb you should be able to win these game's.. .

Razorfin might be the best replacement if we need to replace it anyway. Its blue, can shoot and in an agrro meta it will be very handy. yes we lose some strong counters in this deck. But if your meta is really agrro you won't play counter, but remove-all wich works fine too  

[M]

I vote Rootwater Thief. He may not win all games all by himself, but the simple fact that he is a Merfolk makes some people underestimate his other excellent qualitites (in decks without Lord of Atlantis).

It's true that he is probably too slow against combo most of the time. But where he really shines is against all forms of control decks, because these will usually give you the time to use him effectively. Left unchecked for just a few turns he can remove all of their win conditions.
The ability to know every single card in your opponents deck is worth something, even if you don't remove anything vital. (I have had people resign before allowing his ability to be used, just to prevent me from spying on their entire deck before sideboarding.)
It's a lot easier to play correctly when you are impossible to surprise!
Being able to force your opponent to shuffle his deck every turn is also worth something if he is running out of time (dirty, yes I know).

As a creature he is at least decent. 1/2 'can fly' for is not that bad, and what is more important, makes him perfectly suited for this deck. Spells with mana cost {U} or are not optimal, if you include any then IMO you need to go higher than 14 colored mana sources. His 'high' toughness of 2 also makes him harder to kill than the other contenders, with silver bullets such as Fire/Ice.

[Raven Fire]

Razorfin might be the best replacement if we need to replace it anyway. Its blue, can shoot and in an agrro meta it will be very handy. yes we lose some strong counters in this deck. But if your meta is really agrro you won't play counter, but remove-all wich works fine too  

IMHO, if your meta is so aggro that you are even considering Razorfins, you should really be thinking about a different deck.

[TheRock]

Honestly, every time I consider Goblin Vandal in my maindeck, I end up playing Worse Than Fish instead.

Razorfin Hunter is a great creature, but for it to work very well, it needs to have access to a healthy serving of Sigil of Sleep and either Blue Elemental Blast or Misdirection.  I refuse to lose to having my creatures effortlessly burned off the table and I want to be able to stop bigger creatures as well.  That includes Suq' Ata Firewalker.

I'm still a Voidmage player because if all else fails or I'm playing combo, I want that counter presence.

[Lonely`]

i disagree
the hunters combine very well with curiosity, they help all matchups with goblin welder, and they own the miror
not necessarily an aggro metagame

[Tijnie]

great so lets add a creature in this deck to beat uo the MIRROR?? and welder matchups were BeB/ Lavamancer and Fire/Ice can do the same trick.

[Lonely`]

hunter is FAR better than fire/ice in fish
and u really do want 7 lavamancers in ur deck