The Restricted List - literally

[Diakonov]

I have had this discussion time and time again with friends.  Here is the current list:

Ancestral Recall  
Balance  
Black Lotus  
Black Vise  
Braingeyser  
Burning Wish  
Channel  
Chrome Mox  
Crop Rotation  
Demonic Consultation  
Demonic Tutor  
Doomsday  
Dream Halls  
Earthcraft  
Enlightened Tutor  
Entomb  
Fact or Fiction  
Fastbond  
Fork  
Frantic Search  
Grim Monolith  
Gush  
Library of Alexandria  
Lion's Eye Diamond  
Lotus Petal  
Mana Crypt  
Mana Vault  
Memory Jar  
Mind Over Matter  
Mind Twist  
Mind's Desire  
Mox Diamond  
Mox Emerald  
Mox Jet  
Mox Pearl  
Mox Ruby  
Mox Sapphire  
Mystical Tutor  
Necropotence  
Regrowth  
Sol Ring  
Strip Mine  
Stroke of Genius  
Time Spiral  
Time Walk  
Timetwister  
Tinker  
Tolarian Academy  
Vampiric Tutor  
Voltaic Key  
Wheel of Fortune  
Windfall  
Yawgmoth's Bargain  
Yawgmoth's Will

With the radical changes in the Type One format over the last two years, I personally believe that this list is way outdated.  Not in a sense that more cards need to be restricted; rather, that they should unrestrict some of these cards.

For example, take a look at Braingeyser.  WHY??  It has already been proven that Skeletal Scrying is way better.  You could go so far as to say the same about Stroke.  Some of these cards used to be great powerhouses long ago, back when it took eight turns to make your four-card combo go off.

There are still a lot of cards that clearly must stay on the list (Power, Yawg Will, and many more).  However, I have always been a fan of "don't restrict unless it breaks the format" philosophy.  How many people do you hear saying, "Oh MAN, I wish so much that I could just run four Enlightened Tutors!"

The real point is, they should be able to if they want to.  Some of these cards would open up whole new archetypes if unrestricted, thereby making the format that much more interesting.  I'm a fan of being able to run four workshops, so I think a good test would be to hold the up restricted card in question to a workshop and say, "Is this card really more broken?  Or, will this card somehow cause there to be an unnecessarily broken deck?"  I believe that most people would be surprised by how many cards can fall right off the list without damaging the format.

Do people agree?

[Rancor1]

definately. they could hack off half of this list, and no one would have a problem.
the things they should cut:
1-Braingeyser, for the above reasons
2-Doomsday, isn't it a twelve-card combo that takes turns to go off, and exactly 3 specific cards in ur library?
3-Fork, its not really played anyway
4-LoA, if u think about it, who would want to play more than one, anyway? by no means am i saying its bad, but really, who even has more than one?
5-(maybe)mind over matter, i don't think it was played before it was restricted, was it? correct me.
6-regrowth, with a card that regrowths ur ENTIRE LIBRARY running around, this doesn't do too much anymore.
7-enlightened tutor, what did they tutor for? a memory jar?
8-voltaic key, it really isn't very good, and hasn't been since combo winter.

even some of the evidently broken cards should leave the list, such as fastbond, black vise, and channel (fireball? come on!)

one thing though; crop rotation, while not played, should not be restricted b/c of BoB and Workshop, so don't even argue.

[jpmeyer]

Well, at the very least there really isn't anyone that will disagree with like say, Fork or Voltaic Key.

[Elric]

Channel needs to stay restricted.  Think of decks like The Clock.  GG for 19 colorless mana is a pretty good deal.  

Mind over Matter was certainly used in non-type 1 Academy decks at the time (think Pro Tour Rome).  I don't remember if there was ever a really consensus type 1 Academy deck before everything got restricted.  No one really wants to see anything like that ever again.

[Rico Suave]

4-LoA, if u think about it, who would want to play more than one, anyway?  

Me.

5-(maybe)mind over matter, i don't think it was played before it was restricted, was it? correct me.

It was played before restriction, and afterwards too.  With that being said, I don't think it would be dangerous to unrestrict it now.

6-regrowth, with a card that regrowths ur ENTIRE LIBRARY running around, this doesn't do too much anymore.

I need that card.  My entire library right into my hand, just like Regrowth?  Give it to me.

7-enlightened tutor, what did they tutor for? a memory jar?

Uh, yea.

one thing though; crop rotation, while not played, should not be restricted b/c of BoB and Workshop, so don't even argue.

It's restricted because of combo, not because of some unrestricted lands.

even some of the evidently broken cards should leave the list, such as fastbond, black vise, and channel (fireball? come on!)

Your opinion no longer counts here.  Seriously, I want you to learn why those cards are restricted, then you'll know why you're way off base.

[jpmeyer]

Doomsday could be used with the very elaborate, hard to set up combo, or just as TEH UBER TUT0R that pulls up an easy combo like Power Artifact, Grim Monolith, Stroke of Genius, and 2 Brainstorms.

[Kushluk]

definately. they could hack off half of this list, and no one would have a problem.
the things they should cut:
4-LoA, if u think about it, who would want to play more than one, anyway? by no means am i saying its bad, but really, who even has more than one?
6-regrowth, with a card that regrowths ur ENTIRE LIBRARY running around, this doesn't do too much anymore.
7-enlightened tutor, what did they tutor for? a memory jar?

even some of the evidently broken cards should leave the list, such as fastbond, black vise, and channel (fireball? come on!)

one thing though; crop rotation, while not played, should not be restricted b/c of BoB and Workshop, so don't even argue.

LoA is broken, and it should stay restricted. Wastelands would literally become the "Anti-LoA", if they were unrestricted. Anyone with $$ would run 3 or four. Further, LoA should have it's status changed to Legendary Land, how many libraries can there be?

Channel is overpowered. X mana for GG is too good.

Englightened tutor is a very good card - I made a deck that would be greatly benefited if this was unrestricted.

Black Vise is unbelivably annoying, a recurring colorless bolt for 1 - it's just too stupid as a 1 of, never mind multiples.

Fastbond is used in modern combo. Never unrestrict this.

Regrowth might be arguable - but still for 1G, it is a pretty low price to get back somthing important from the G-yard.

[MadManiac21]

First: Matt, it's good to see you posting here.

Second:
Key, Geyser, Fork, Entomb (possibly), E.Tutor, Doomsday, earthcraft

Key: Isn't exceptionally broken at the moment when the best artifact cards used go to the graveyard after they are activated (jar, slaver). It basically allows people to either a) creat massive amounts of mana or b) untap Phyrexian colosus. Massive mana is all over the place, so no worry there, and there are worse things than an 8/8 right now.

Geyser: Sorcery speed. It's not cunning-wishable, unlike stroke (which I think needs to stay restricted). Having to cast this on your own turn doesn't strike fear in your opponents. Scrying is better.

Fork: Kool tricks are about the only thing this card really does, and untill combo or control decks can keep pumping out RR to copy their FoFs, wheels, recalls, etc. its not a real threat. Even mono red wouldn't run many copies of this.

Entomb: I'm on the fence. It brings back everyone's favorite reanimate decks, while possibly helping out Dragon a bit, but bazaar/squee is simply more broken than this. Possibility, but this card's case is the most easily refuted.

E. Tutor: How many decks have you seen lately running this card? Maybe in multiples it gives a large bonus/boost for decks that abuse artifacts and enchantments (and god knows there are alot of them), but no one is even running the single right now.

Doomsday: Just....because.

Earthcraft: Bring back the squirrels! Not a very deadly combo IMO, it never even dominated many tournaments. Yes, it would often show up in t8s and could take down anything on good draws, but so can any deck. When you only need to either a) counter all the crafts or b) all the nests to *usually* win, it's not very deadly. It adds another combo deck to the meta, but not an EXCEPTIONALLY broken one. Sure it could go off on you pretty early, but it still needs to have another turn to untap and swing. Both Dragon, Long, Draw7, and TPS don't need that. Plus its green.

[Ric_Flair]

First of all, reasons like "Just...because" should not be allowed.  

Second, I think that the parity that the format has reached right now is delicate, but healthy.  Why change that now?  Unrestrictions are fine, but only when the format needs a kick.  It is fine now.

Third, I think just like Wizards should produce compelling evidence to us for taking our cards away, we should produce compelling evidence to get back.  The burden of proof MUST be on those proposing the action.  And none of the reasons offered thus far are up to that standard.

[Matt]

Regrowth, like Crop Rotation and Enlightened Tutor (and probably Vamp and Mystical, too!) is only restricted because of other restricted cards. Sadly, as long as Academy (Rotation), Necro/Fastbond/Jar (Enlightened), and Balance/Will/Wheel/Twister/Tinker (Mystical) are in the format, these cards have to be kept under lock and key.

Really, the only totally safe cards to let go are Key, Geyser, Fork, and possibly Stroke. I totally agree with Ric Flair: the burden of proof is solidly on us.

[MuzzonoAmi]

I agree with Matt. Key, Stroke, Geyser, Fork,  and  Mind over Matter are all that we have COMPELLING evidence for. I'm all for unrestricting LoA, but the arguments against it are just as good as those for it.

[Machinus]

[EDITS: There were lots of errors in this one.]

These cards earn their place:

Ancestral Recall
Balance
Black Lotus
Channel
Crop Rotation
Demonic Consultation
Demonic Tutor
Enlightened Tutor
Fact or Fiction
Fastbond
Frantic Search
Gush
Library of Alexandria
Lion's Eye Diamond
Mana Crypt
Mana Vault
Memory Jar
Mind Twist
Mind's Desire
Mox Emerald
Mox Jet
Mox Pearl
Mox Ruby
Mox Sapphire
Mystical Tutor
Necropotence
Sol Ring
Strip Mine
Time Walk
Timetwister
Tinker
Tolarian Academy
Vampiric Tutor
Wheel of Fortune
Windfall
Yawgmoth's Bargain
Yawgmoth's Will


It doesn't really matter if the card is powerful by itself, or if it augments the power of a particular deck so much that the deck itself becomes broken (recall vs. gush). The format does need a measure of control, and this is the most solid form that we will recieve. The DCI should probably pay closer attention to our format though.

These cards could potentially have arguments for unrestriction, although most of them are also probably deserving of their place on the list. I have indicated what most likely keeps them on the list today.


Black Vise - Colorless, 1cc, demolishes control decks.
Braingeyser - *sigh* Academy...
Burning Wish - Long.dec, but without LED, who is to say?
Chrome Mox - All combo. Probably a good idea to keep this here, but its really not a good card. Restricted on principle, a practice I agree with.
Doomsday - Outdated combo fears. Could be useful, but probably not dangerous. No one really bothers with it as it is.
Dream Halls - Outdated combo fears. Still a powerful card with combo potential, could abuse madness.
Earthcraft - I really don't think squirrels will hurt anyone.
Entomb - This destroys a fun deck, reanimator, and barely affects dragon at all. Extended fears probably caused this.
Fork - Okay, really this shouldn't be here.
Grim Monolith - The terror of academy still lingers.
Lotus Petal - More academy terror. Cheap mana is really crap.  
Mind Over Matter - Academy strikes again.
Mox Diamond - In my opinion, chrome mox is better than this. I am open minded to considering that unrestricting this would be ok.
Stroke of Genius - Isn't academy dead? Stroke is still good though, no one plays misdirection anymore and there is a lot of powerful mana generation being abused currently (statement could be made at any time in the lifetime of T1).
Time Spiral - Haha. Okay maybe this should stay restricted, but I don't think it would get much action if it wasn't. (@DCI: Academy isn't played any more.)
Voltaic Key - This is an excellent card. It is simple and useful, and provides a fair exchange of resources. Candelabra is UNRESTRICTED, and thats more abusive. I think this and fork are the strongest candidates for parole.

There is a key observation to be made about the B&R. Truly powerful cards get played in fours (Gush), threes (FoF), twos (Intuition), and ones (Walk). Broken cards get played even when they are restricted. It is a measure of how weak a card is in the current environment when it is not good enough to be played in a deck as a single copy.


While I am unsatisfied with the amount of analysis T1 gets in regards to B&R, errata, and so forth, I do think the restricted list is pretty fair. The cards that ought to be unrestricted do not have profound implications but rather provide players with convenience, ease of play, and satisfaction that they get to play some of their favorite cards (Hurkyl's Recall has been reunited with the part of his family that is not incarcerated, and is doing just fine.)

[MuzzonoAmi]

Time Spiral - Haha. Okay maybe this should stay restricted, but I don't think it would get much action if it wasn't. (@DCI: Academy isn't played any more.)

It's still a 'free' Timetwister. Diminishing Returns may be better, but even that is debatable. Even at 6 mana, this is too dangerous in combo.

[johnstown713]

IT is safe to say that the majority agree on what should be unrestricted.  I really don't think library should be unrestricted.  There are tons of wastelands and strip mines running around and it can still win games.  The card is awsome.  Then again if you have multiple and can only use it if there is seven cards in your hand then it is not as good.  Once you use the first one then you have eight cards and can't use the others.  IMO it just survives multiple wastelands.  

UNRESTRICT EARTHCRAFT:   LONG LIVE THE SQUIRRELS!!! :lol:

[Machinus]

Time Spiral is crap. First of all, combo doesn't really use lands for mana anymore. Second of all, if you are casting this instead of Mind's Desire, Returns, or one of they many other cheaper draw spells, you are probably not going anywhere. If you cast this early in the game, there isn't much land to untap, and you have just wasted six mana that you could have spend on better cards. Second, if you are playing this late in the game...and you are playing combo...you lose. That being said, it is a Timetwister, except you pay twice as much and can't get it back later. It can be wished for, and it says draw seven, so that might be enough to leave it on the list. It's one of my personal favorite cards though, I have a lot of them, haha.

[Zw4liki]

UNRESTRICT MOX EMERALD!!!!11111

sorry, couldn't help making fun of stok

I think he wrote an article about that

somebody should link it ...

  uhh just so I don't get flamed for having an unsightful post, unrestrict chrome mox. negative card advantage is bad?

[johnstown713]

I doubt they would unrestrict chrome mox plus the mox diamond is much worse IMO.  I would like to see that link.

[RoadTrippin]

UNRESTRICT MOX EMERALD!!!!11111

sorry, couldn't help making fun of stok

I think he wrote an article about that

somebody should link it ...

  uhh just so I don't get flamed for having an unsightful post, unrestrict chrome mox. negative card advantage is bad?

I think it was Ruby, but either way it doesn't really matter.

While I don't know if Stok was serious or not, I'm actually a big fan of that article. It raised a lot of good points if you realize it's not actually about playing with 4 of a mox as much as it's just about T1, community, inflation, and theory/logic.

[Dr. Sylvan]

UNRESTRICT MOX EMERALD!!!!11111

sorry, couldn't help making fun of stok

I think he wrote an article about that

somebody should link it ...

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=5490

[Diakonov]

I would just like to slide off-topic for half-a-second to point out something about Stok's article.  Personally I think unrestricting the real Moxen is ludicrous even if Academy is banned.  Imagine Big O running four of those, or workshops running eight moxen!  I like Andy, but you also have to keep in mind that he's a bigtime dealer.  He would have a lot to gain from an unrestriction like that.

[MasterIth]

i really think that spiral is not restriction worthy, it is not seeing any play whatsoever, so now lets have a deck with 4 of a card people aren't willing to play 1 of.

[Shock Wave]

The thing that really shocks me about all this restricted list talk is how anyone could recommend unrestricting Library of Alexandria. Sometimes, it really doesn't matter how you "rationalize" restricting and unrestricting certain cards. While it may seem important that certain cards get restricted, you'll find upon testing that the restriction was not warranted and vice-versa. The whole LOA scenario is of that nature.

Whoever disagrees with me can try playtesting a control deck with multiple LOAs in it. It is absolutely retarded.

[BouncingBeeble]

Is it just me or is this a quarterly event at TMD? I remember starting this kind of thread only to have it closed, and that was after I had seen a similar thread a while before. To me, this topic is not worth discussing. Debating what should or should not be on the B&R list will not change it. What we need is another opportunity like the one Aaron Forsythe gave us a while back to voice our opinions to the people that matter: those at wizards who can actually alter the list. When Wizard's is actually listening to us is when our opinions actually become relavent.

[xaos]

i really think that spiral is not restriction worthy, it is not seeing any play whatsoever, so now lets have a deck with 4 of a card people aren't willing to play 1 of.

combo decks do not need another draw seven. sure, they dont play it now, but what if they could add four?  i think they'd adapt to it- fastbond comes to mind.  Desire for 3 or 4 would be even more dangerous.  I just dont think giving type one more massive draw will encourage a broader metagame, once the unrestrictions take place.

Fork I've wanted to see unrestricted for a long time.  Maybe I just like the flavor of the card too much-  "Hey, whatever you're doing over there looks pretty cool,  I'll try it too!"  Monored needs some more good reactive spells-  this one's broken, but at double-R its difficult to splash for, and you can't always know what it's going to end up being.  I think this would give some of the budget sligh players more enjoyment out of their decks, being able to Recall once in a while will help them continue to play t1


  I'd say Geyser is OK for an unban, as a sorcery, but spiral and stroke shouldnt. Fork gets the go as well

Edit: oh yeah, almost forgot:  Unrestricting LoA would be one of the dumbest things wizards could do.  I'd believe, that with 4 libraries, everyone would have to play some form of counter-control, 4 LoA, 5 strips, to be able to compete.  A must-have 9 cards that all produce colorless mana would just make decks far from fun.

[jpmeyer]

If people actually played Standard,  they would know that the Dream Halls deck in Standard, which couldn't use Academy, still ran 4 Dream Halls, 4 Mind Over Matter, and 4 Time Spiral.  And that deck never untapped more than 3 lands with Spiral.

That deck killed on turn 2 all the time.

[Jacob Orlove]

This thread is actually terrible. Closed.