[discussion] standard/extended "type 1 decks"

[jpmeyer]

This mostly comes from someone posting in the comments thread on SCG for my article, but he was really offended by the concept of how it's becoming apparent that the much-maligned strategy of "Type 2 decks with Sol Ring" is not only quite viable, but that many of these decks are better than "traditional" Type 1.  With the success of Tog and Workshop Slaver, do people see this as a good thing--something that makes Type 1 a much more accessible format, or as a bad thing--something that makes Type 1 lose much of its "character" as old staples of Type 1 fall by the wayside?

[Methuselahn]

I see it as a good thing.   Doesn't this create more options for type 1 deckbuilders?  The fact that Moxen will always be a huge hurdle into the format coupled by the fact that they always make decks better and thus get them into the t8's more will always keep the formats distinctly different.  I don't see any loss of character as long as the power cards are the best.

[IllusionX]

It is a great thing, in my opinion.  If you look at block/standard/extended formats, you can pull some of the best decks in t1 from those formats.  It does make decks somewhat more accessible, but that is just an added bonus.  You can literally take most of the top level decks from those formats, add moxes, and run with it.  People just need to come to the stark realization that their old favorite t1 deck in most cases just can't handle the newer decks.  The lose of character is negligable, this is evolution in the works.

P.S: Feel the love of cotton.

[Dante]

The way I see it, the constructed formats that these decks come from is more highly concentrated in its testing (both in quantity and quality) than compared to type 1, so taking the themes and skeletons of these decks, which have already been extensively tested and honed, and adapting them to Type 1 is a natural for testing.

The only real problem I have with the new cards and old cards "character" not mixing is the fact that the new card front doesn't mix as well with older cards.  If my Beta Lightning Bolts don't see play in competitive decks anymore, well, too bad for me..  There will always be things like FoW, Drain, power, workshops, swords, etc that are format defining, just new things come along like Tog, fetchlands to add to that character...

[Tempe]

I think part of the reason that this conversion of Type 2 and Extended is because, for the most part, they do a lot more testing and developing. Because Type 1 encompasses all of the cards of Extended and Type 2, and it means almost any deck legal in these other formats is legal here, and can only be improved.

Coupled with the fact that many decks have been "given" to us through mechanics that lend themselves to a deck, and it is plausible that the same deck would show up in multiple formats. This is one of the key things, since mechanics almost always come in one big grouping, and thus are legal in Type 2. If Type 1 wanted to use the mechanic, the best use for it is usually using it with the rest of the cards sharing that mechanic, creating a deck that uses mostly Type 2 legal cards, and probably a viable deck in Type 2 as well. The exceptions are when a Type 1 only card is what makes the deck viable, but that rarely happens as a strategy now adays to create decks is to look at what is viable in Type 2 in the first place.

Now, I don't look at it as a bad thing. If Type 1 were the most popular and supported of formats, some Type 2 decks might be labeled "Type 1 without Sol Ring," as it really comes down to who developed it first.

However, this "Type 2 with Sol Ring" deal is obviously simplified, as I'm sure everyone knows. The only downside to labeling decks like that is that decks become "accepted" for what they are, and people forget about every other card in the format thats _not_ legal in other formats, and a lot of innovation and new deck tech goes untouched. But, there is always someone who will pick the deck up and find that card, with so many people involved in Type 1 now.

At least, that's what I think. I hope I didn't go too far off topic.

--Tempe

[Jakedasnake]

I don't know. This seems like the first time in a while, since GroATog, that a deck has been basically transferred to Type 1, and, well, done pretty good. The only problem I see is that this happens because the card base in Type 2 is so strong, that it can basically transfer right over to Type 1, the 'Broken Format'.

What it means is that Wizards is progressively producing stronger and stronger cards, and this could lead into Type 1 and Extended being Pseudo-Type 2 formats. I really hope this doesn't happen.

However, some skeletons should be transferred, because they're viable and all, but I don't think I'd like to see it too often.

[Tempe]

Since GAT, Tog, FCG, Affinity, and Ravager were all transferred from another format to Type 1. There are probably others I missed as well.

--Tempe

[IllusionX]

You are missing Slaver and Madness, which are two big ones.

It just comes to show that a lot of t1 players need to look elsewhere (outside the box) for decks and deck ideas/skeletons.

[Swanky]

I think it was JP who - in a post a long time ago in a relatively close galaxy - said (To paraphrase): "When I build decks, I want to use the best cards available to me."  In sticking to that dogma, it becomes clear that we should definitely consider the cards in the Type II card pool.  If a certain card is ripping up a format (As Arcbound Ravager seems to be doing a decent job of.), it should warrant some attention.  

That having been said, the constant adoption of "Type II decks with Sol Rings" does affect the inherent stability of the format that so many people like.  I'll rue the day that Type I begins cycling along with Type II. :P

Ultimately, hey- if a card shows promise, it should be tested.  Additionally, I suppose if you want to truly get back to Type I's "roots," you could always set aside your FCG or Tog and play your patented "TurboThallid" deck.  Elvish Farmer is the bomb-diggity, jive turkey.

[Matt]

Aren't most of so-called "Type one staple decks" just 1998's type two decks + Sol Ring? Sligh, Suicide, Stompy, and monoblue were all orginally Tempest-era creations.

[The Atog Lord]

I believe that one of the reasons for this phenomenon is Intra Block Synergy (IBS). People have been complaining – and not without justification – that Wizards has gotten into the habit of building our decks for us. This may be intentional on Wizards’ part, or it may be a larger part of the trend of having “theme” blocks. I’ll use Odyssey block for an example. That was, in many regards, the “discard is good” block, and so that block had many cards which were especially good with self-induced discard.

Does that happen to lend itself to a strong Type Two deck which utilizes the theme of discard? Of course. It lead to the format-dominating (and fun-ruining) Blue Green Madness deck.

In Type One, IBS has a similar effect. If someone is making a deck to take advantage of a powerful mechanic – such as Madness – then that person is forced by IBS to use a large number of cards for which Madness and related mechanics were the theme.

To phrase it briefly, if you’re building a Type One Ravager deck, there just aren’t too many cards outside of the block which are especially useful, because that block was designed to facilitate such a deck.

[BreathWeapon]

Well, you could always go back to the old folks home and play a format dominated by Keeper and decks that can beat Keeper ... i'm sure Rakso is waiting for you there with open arms. Seriously, I think we should simply kick back and see just how much of Extended and T2 can transfer into T1. If we keep seeing a continuous stream of innovation in T1 from Inner-Block Synergy, all the better. T1 has more to gain from being a dynamic format, as it is now, than from being Rakso's old folks home.

[Jakedasnake]

I don't want Type 1 to go back to the Keeper days. All I was saying was that having a Type 1 format that's basically Type 2 just doesn't appeal to me. Hopefully, stuff like this won't happen too much, because why play Type 1 with Type 2 cards for small prizes instead of playing with Type 2 cards in Type 2 for large prizes?

Just my $.02

[defector]

Last I checked type 1 cards and type 2 cards became legal for both formats at the same time.  When I first saw mind slaver, I thought interestuing, but sfw.  It wasn't until i'd played with it awhile that I saw it was worth building a deck around, I even dismissed Toad's first article which was an import from extended, control slaver was born of type 1, played around with wokshops and drains in the same deck even, is it cool.  Maybe, maybe not, still playing.
So I listened to a couple communities, played a lot of games, saw it's power over time through my own experience.  Settled on a design that fit my play experience.  We're all playing the same game here, the distinctions between formats are non-interesting to the effect that we discuss a new card.  Mindslaver appeared in strength in type 1, extended at about the same time with respect paid to the restrcitions of each format because people play both and we all look to the new cards for ways to innovate old strategies or create new ones.  Just because a card is playable across many formats doesn't mean anything in a type 1 vs type 2 debate except that that card, whatever it may be is a damn good card.  Wizards gave us Legions, I don't remember any type one player importing or innovating along the same line as the type 2 crowd for that piece opf trash, Mirrodin block is more promising territory for us, the next may be worse.  The point is that who cares, no one in extened or type 2 could hit a brain freeze for 20 or easily tendrils someone on turn 2, these cards were type 2 legal and only saw play in type 1, were they printed for us?  Maybe, maybe not, did we import them from a block that couldn't use them, or exploit them from a block that couldn't exploit them?
Type 1 does not use cards circa 1993-1994, we use the best cards, you have a type 2 deck you think is neat, I could improve it and beat you or take a card you can't even use in type 2 and smoke you with it, I can do this becuase I own a small number of power cards and can draw from a much larger card pool than yours, your deck is cute, mine is degenerate.  That wilbe the way off it in competitive type 1 for a long time, at least I hope so, these cards are for all of us, except that mine are for me longer.
defector

[jpmeyer]

Here's another thing to consider:

If you're just able to add say Moxes or duals to your Standard deck and have it be competitive, does this help to kill the "Type 1 is cheaper than Standard because you will never be able to use your Standard cards again" claim?

[Ric_Flair]

Good topic.

I have been thinking about this for a while now and I think the answer lies in the fact that Wizards has become better about making cards.  For example, looking at ABU for spells and AN for creatures we see a whole lot of busted stuff (Moxen, Power Blue) and a small core of good creatures (Hypnotic, Kird Ape, and to a lesser extent Serendib) but for the most part the cards were crap.  In essence the scale was skewed.  Lots of garbage and a few absolute stellar (broken) cards but nothing in the middle or even in the great but not broken category.  Flash forward to post Invasion and we see a raft of good but not broken spells and and creatures.  The fact is that we could not afford, as a format, to add more broken stuff.  We need to have more of that second level of stuff--the Togs and the Wild Mongrels and the like.  And this is what we have gotten.  So much so that the stuff dominates in Type 2 (even block) is good enough to make it in Vintage.  I think that this is a good thing.  It forces the format to move and change.    I know that alot of people will bemoan the change and the loss of staples like The Abyss and Morphling, but change is good.  The format is thriving, and I, for one, am pleased to see the sacred cows get slaughtered.  Morphling has sucked for so long it is not even funny.

Finally one more important point--one of the reasons for the porting phenomenon is that, as much as we don't like to admit it, the Pros are much, much better at building decks we, as a community, are.  So much better that they can take a weaker, smaller cardpool and make better decks than we can, even with access to Moxen and the like.  This leads to the ability to port, tweak, and presto a new Vintage deck.  This does not always happen, and there is some innovation, but I often wonder what the landscape would look like if Pros were in Vintage building and testing with all of their collective powers.  Case in point:  PT NO was MORE broken, and faster than Vintage was at the time and Long.dec was legal then.  In NO there were essentially 5 decks that could go off turn 2.  And they had no access to Power.  Imagine what a Pro Vintage event would look like.  

PS:  The Invitationals don't count because no one took them seriously because of a lack of real cash prizes.  Money buys PT quality innovation.

[defector]

Absolutely,
Type 1 is the cheapest format to play if one is going to play for longer than one year or so.  I'm not the economics or statistical expert other members of this site are, but I can claim with some sense of aptitude that the "cost to stay competitive/legal" in type one will always be eclipsed by the "cost to stay competitive/legal" in any other format, except for 1.5.  1.5 enjoys the same benefits of longevity that we have in type one, with our "barrier of entry cards" mainly excepted(obviously workshop/drain escape this, mainly referring to power here), my firends that have played hard type 2 have spent comparable amounts of money on cards trhat were only good for a year or less, and that weren'ty that good tostart with.  Buying a mox is definitely an investment, but it is a stable investment that will improve over time.  Buying four "Mutilates" on the other hand will help your standard balck control deck for some finite time, though they be headed for the discard pile at the point of purchase.  
defector

[Ric_Flair]

@Defector:  

I think you misread JP's statement.  He is saying that this is now proof that Type 1 is more expensive.  

JP:

If you're just able to add say Moxes or duals to your Standard deck and have it be competitive, does this help to kill the "Type 1 is cheaper than Standard because you will never be able to use your Standard cards again" claim?

Yes.  It does kill the claim that Type 1 is cheaper.  At best, with porting, Type 1 is Type 2 plus expensive cards.  In essence with the increased power of Type 2 cards, players are no longer able to build Keeper, put it on a shelf, and a year later play the same deck.  Now you have to not only have the expensive OOP cards, but you also have to get stuff like Chalice, fetchlands, and other chase rares.  In essence, if they keep printing great stuff, Vintage will automatically be more expensive than Type 2.  It will be new chase rares from Standard, like Ravager, plus Moxen and the like.  Excellent point JP.