Basic Questions

[Nyce]

I have some gaming questions that I need answered.  Mucho Gracias!

1.  Can alternitive casting costs be countered?  Such as madness, flashback,  or  cycling?

2.  Can you cast a spell which has no viable target; such as a creature enchantment when there are no creatures in play?

3.  If two ablities are happening at once and you control both sources, you get to pick the priority right?  

4.  Can you respond to abilities that say "At the beginning of your [or opponent's] upkeep...." by casting your own spells or activating the abilities of your permanents?

5.  Let's say  my opponent and I each have a wasteland in play.  He sacrifices his wasteland to kill my Underground Sea, can I sacrifices my wasteland in response to prevent my underground Sea from hitting the graveyard?

[gashole]

My Judge certificate (that I never actually got, *cough*DCI*cough*) is getting a little rusty, so I'll take a stab at these.

1. You can't counter a spell when it is played using madness. You can counter a flashed back spell, as it goes onto the stack as normal. Cycling is not a casting cost at all, it's an activated ability of a card in your hand.

2. No.

3. I think you're confusing the meaning of the term "priority." If two abilities trigger at the same time, you place them on the stack in APNAP (active player/non-active player) order. First, the active player puts any abilities he controls onto the stack in any order he wishes, then the non-active player does the same.

4. Yes, this is a triggered ability that will go on the stack and require priority to be passed in order for it to resolve. When you are given priority, you can respond by casting instants or using abilities.

5. I assume you mean you want to use your Wasteland to destroy your opponent's Wasteland before it can target your Underground Sea. In which case, no you cannot. Your opponent activates his Wasteland's ability, and when he pays the cost for that ability, his Wasteland is sacrificed. When you receive priority, you are certainly able to activate your own Wasteland, but your opponent's will no longer be in play for you to target.

[Suckamouf37]

1.  Madness: Yes, with either normal counters or Stifle and probably with Bind.  I'm not entirely sure about it, but I'm almost positive Bind will work here.  Also, because of stack rules, if it is Stifled, it gets removed from the game.
Flashback:  Yes but only by regular counters.
Cycling: Yes but only with Stifle or Bind.  Also note that when you use Stifle Decree of Justice or any other similar card, you must choose whether to counter the draw or the make tokens part.

2.  No.  A spell has to have a legal target(s) in order to be played.

3.  Yes.  That is what makes Tangle Wire-Smokestack good.

4.  Yes, those abilities use the stack and therefore you may respond to them.

5.  No.  Once a Wasteland has been activated, all you can do to stop that land from being destroyed is Stifle or Bind the Wasteland or bounce your land.  Think of this one in war terms:  A guy throws a grenade at you, then you shoot him.  The grenade will still explode in you're face unless you do something to stop it.

Also, in the future, stuff like this should go in the rulings forum.

[Nyce]

So:

Madness and Cycling can be stifled.  Cycling can't be countered by regular counters like Mana Drain.  Flashback can't be stifled but can be countered by Force of Will, etc.

Thanks Suckamouf37 and gashole. Everything's clear except whether Madness can be countered by regular counters (Mana Drain, Force of will, etc.) or not.  You two tend to disagree on that point.

@Suckamouf37 Didn't see the rules forum, you may move it

[Jebus]

Just to confirm this, you can counter spells played via Madness just like any other spell.

[FORCE-OF-WILL]

Jebus is right on this one....

Jebus- a good frind of mine is a level 3 judge and I get to hear some good ones? You for some floor rules trivia?

[gashole]

Yeah that definitely should have been a can counter spells played using Madness. What a horrible place to make a typo. Sorry for the confusion.

[DEA]

the madness ability cannot be countered by spells or abilities that counter SPELLS
madness can however be countered by spells or abilities that counter triggered abilities
ie bind doesn't work because bind works on activated abilities

[Toad]

the madness ability cannot be countered by spells or abilities that counter SPELLS
madness can however be countered by spells or abilities that counter triggered abilities
ie bind doesn't work because bind works on activated abilities

No, you are wrong. The keyword "Madness" reffers to two distinct abilities. The first one is a static ability that allows the player to remove the cards from the game instead of discarding it to the graveyard. This action triggers the second ability, which says that until next time the player passes priority, he's allowed to played the card he removed from the game for its madness cost.

Spells that counters triggered abilities (Stifle) can counter the triggered ability while it is on the stack. Spells that counter spells can counter the spell played for its madness cost (ie once the triggered ability hass resolved).

[Matt]

the madness ability cannot be countered by spells or abilities that counter SPELLS
madness can however be countered by spells or abilities that counter triggered abilities
ie bind doesn't work because bind works on activated abilities

No, you are wrong. The keyword "Madness" reffers to two distinct abilities. The first one is a static ability that allows the player to remove the cards from the game instead of discarding it to the graveyard. This action triggers the second ability, which says that until next time the player passes priority, he's allowed to played the card he removed from the game for its madness cost.

Spells that counters triggered abilities (Stifle) can counter the triggered ability while it is on the stack. Spells that counter spells can counter the spell played for its madness cost (ie once the triggered ability hass resolved).

I think he means that the madness triggered ability can't be countered by Counterspell, which is correct but misleading.

[Ged]

Cycling: Yes but only with Stifle or Bind.  Also note that when you use Stifle Decree of Justice or any other similar card, you must choose whether to counter the draw or the make tokens part.

Can someone confirm that this is correct (countering the draw or the tokens)?


Also, when you cycle a card (for example DoJ), you first pay for the cycling cost (2W) and then, if it's not stifled, pay the mana for tokens on resolution?

[DEA]

I think he means that the madness triggered ability can't be countered by Counterspell, which is correct but misleading.

that is correct
which is why i put "spells" in capital letters to distinguish the ability from the spell

[Toad]

Can someone confirm that this is correct (countering the draw or the tokens)?

Also, when you cycle a card (for example DoJ), you first pay for the cycling cost (2W) and then, if it's not stifled, pay the mana for tokens on resolution?

When you cycle DoJ, two triggers go on the stack, the draw one and the soldier one. You have to choose which one you want to Stifle.

You are correct about your point concerning the soldier ability.

[Jebus]

Can someone confirm that this is correct (countering the draw or the tokens)?

Also, when you cycle a card (for example DoJ), you first pay for the cycling cost (2W) and then, if it's not stifled, pay the mana for tokens on resolution?

When you cycle DoJ, two triggers go on the stack, the draw one and the soldier one. You have to choose which one you want to Stifle.

Actually, only one trigger goes on the stack. The Draw is not a trigger, it is an activated ability.

[Kowal]

mmm, thread necromancy.

Eric Wilkinson told me that when you cycle decree, you pay your 2W, draw your card, and then decide how much you'd like to pay to make soliders.  Can Jebus or someone else with a certification explain exactly why that works? (or why it doesn't, which is my initial reaction)

EDIT:  Looks like I found it on my own.  Wilkinson is a lying cheater.

#  502.18.Ruling.4 - Effects that trigger on "when this card is cycled" trigger when the cycling ability is played. The triggered ability will resolve before the card is drawn during the resolution of the Cycle ability. [Onslaught FAQ 2002/09/24]

[Jebus]

mmm, thread necromancy.

Eric Wilkinson told me that when you cycle decree, you pay your 2W, draw your card, and then decide how much you'd like to pay to make soliders.  Can Jebus or someone else with a certification explain exactly why that works? (or why it doesn't, which is my initial reaction)

EDIT:  Looks like I found it on my own.  Wilkinson is a lying cheater.

#  502.18.Ruling.4 - Effects that trigger on "when this card is cycled" trigger when the cycling ability is played. The triggered ability will resolve before the card is drawn during the resolution of the Cycle ability. [Onslaught FAQ 2002/09/24]

Heh, looks like you found your answer, but just to reiterate.

You play the Cycling ability, and put it on the stack.  This triggers any abilities that trigger off this event.  In the case of DoJ, the soldier trigger goes on the stack.

Since it went on the stack on top of the Cycle, it will resolve first.

You don't determine what you will pay for X until the Soldier trigger resolves.  When it does resolve, you pay X and get that many tokens.

Then,  you draw a card.

[lilmidget]

Does that mean that you won't know how many tokens your opponent wants to make until it's already too late to stifle?

[Jebus]

Does that mean that you won't know how many tokens your opponent wants to make until it's already too late to stifle?

Correct.

[LotusHead]

So begining of upkeep triggers simply go on the stack, and then you can respond with fast effects.  That is what I'm hearing/reading.  

If someone has a Myr Servitor (the ones that put graveyard Servitors into play), and one in the graveyard, can they:

Put "put graveyard Servitor's in play" on the stack, sacrifice it to Shrapnel Blast, put another one into play, put it's trigger on the stack and sacrifice it to a second Shrapnel Blast?

Hopefully I made my question clear.  If not, I will try to rephrase tomorrow.

In short, "At the beginning of upkeep" stuff is triggered only by stuff actually in play at the beginning of upkeep (not created during the beginning of upkeep).

[Limbo]

"In short, "At the beginning of upkeep" stuff is triggered only by stuff actually in play at the beginning of upkeep (not created during the beginning of upkeep).

This is correct.

[Jebus]

So begining of upkeep triggers simply go on the stack, and then you can respond with fast effects. That is what I'm hearing/reading.

Correct.

If someone has a Myr Servitor (the ones that put graveyard Servitors into play), and one in the graveyard, can they:

Put "put graveyard Servitor's in play" on the stack, sacrifice it to Shrapnel Blast, put another one into play, put it's trigger on the stack and sacrifice it to a second Shrapnel Blast?

Some problems here.  You can put the ability of the Myr in play on the stack, and then sacrfice it, but then its abiltiy will do nothing when it resolves.  This is because the Servitor specifically says it must be in play for its ability to work.  This is what is called an "intervening 'if' clause".

Also, if you didn't sacrifice it and brought another into play, the new one would not trigger as it was not in play at the beginning of the upkeep.

In short, "At the beginning of upkeep" stuff is triggered only by stuff actually in play at the beginning of upkeep (not created during the beginning of upkeep).

Unless it specifies otherwise, the card must be in play when the upkeep starts in order for its "at the beginng of upkeep" triggers to trigger.

[Matt]

In short, "At the beginning of upkeep" stuff is triggered only by stuff actually in play at the beginning of upkeep (not created during the beginning of upkeep).

A good way to undertsand this is that there is only one "beginning of upkeep" and if you're in the middle of the upkeep, the beginning has already passed.

[lilmidget]

If someone has a Myr Servitor (the ones that put graveyard Servitors into play), and one in the graveyard, can they:

Put "put graveyard Servitor's in play" on the stack, sacrifice it to Shrapnel Blast, put another one into play, put it's trigger on the stack and sacrifice it to a second Shrapnel Blast?

Some problems here.  You can put the ability of the Myr in play on the stack, and then sacrfice it, but then its abiltiy will do nothing when it resolves.  This is because the Servitor specifically says it must be in play for its ability to work.  This is what is called an "intervening 'if' clause".

Also, if you didn't sacrifice it and brought another into play, the new one would not trigger as it was not in play at the beginning of the upkeep.

The trick with that is you have to have 3 servitors in play and 1 in the grave. Each servitor has its own separate trigger. At the beginning of your upkeep, each one triggers. When the first trigger resolves, the servitor in the grave returns to play. Then in reponse to the second trigger on the stack, use some kind of sacrificing effect (last time I drafted, I used this trick with [card]Blasting Station[/card]) and sacrifice the servitor that's trigger had already resolved and the servitor that came back to play from the grave. Then those 2 servitors come back into play when the second trigger resolves. Then before the thrid trigger resolves, sac the other 3 servitors. When the trigger resolves, the 3 servitors are returned back into play.

It's kind of complicated, but with this little trick I was able to do 6 damage a turn with [card]Blasting Station[/card].

[Jebus]

I am aware of that trick, but it has nothing to do wtih the previous scenario.