Questions about Ray's UR Landstill, Hadley 4/3

[firebird365]

I felt there was a lack of "real" Landstill discussion lately, but Ray's first place finish at Hadley was a surprise to me - not that he's not a good player, but the seemingly unorthodox choices that he had in his deck. Previously, using these were seen as bad choices in the deck, but Ray's finish seems to defy those results. Ray, if you could comment, that would be excellent.

Two quick things before I list the different choices:

1) The T8 can be found here.
2) If the card choices were meant to be a joke, inform me ASAP.  

Onward to the choices.

• First off, 5 Moxes. The advantage that the 5 Moxen provide (faster Disk, faster Standstills, faster manland activation) has been written off as a waste of space due to the importance of Disk in Landstill. Is the mana boost worth the space?
• Second, Cunning Wish. It's been suggested before, but also hasn't been given a lot of attention. Most Landstill sideboards are in the 4-4-4-3 setup, without a lot of variation... the toolbox SB here is a big change.
• Finally, 4 Stifles MD (and 3 F/I as the only MD removal). Since the deck seems to have won through a heavy Masknought (wtf?) meta, there are many things that are good Stifle targets, but even so, upping the count to 4 hasn't been done a lot. Relative to the norm, the T8 didn't have a large count of Wastelands, either. I'm an advocate of the 4 Bolt/4 FI setup, but this seems to have worked well.
[/list:u]
Any ideas or suggestions as to why these ideas seem to work well but have been ignored (or tested, then ignored) in the past?

[Zanetanos101]

Just briefly looking at the meta in that tourney, I am not suprised that he would do well with only 3 maindeck removal (minus of course the disks).  I also think that the 5 moxen is good move for several reasons that you have said.  The major one is getting out Standstill faster... turn 1 Standstill due to the acceleration of a moxen is great, just awesome.  Also faster disk (without having to drain into them) is always good even if it annoys your mana base, the idea is probably to get off to a banging start.  

However, I do question the use of the Cunning Wish in this deck, quite odd.  But obviously it worked for him.

[proGaming]

Adding 5 Moxes is rather harsh but Ray probably thought that it would be worth it to accelerate into a Disk which Slavery hates with a passion.  He probably has the 5 moxes just for the Slavery matchup which i'm sure that a good part of the field was running.  

I think Cunning Wish in Landstill is horrible, it's so anti-synergic with Standstill but then again, with all the artifact mana, Wish does become better but I still think -3 Wish, +1 FI, +2 Response is a superior setup.   Another thing I don't like is the inclusion of 3 Fetchlands.  I would definately cut them for 3 Shivan Reefs to smooth out the manabase.   In case anyone was wondering here is my current list:

// Standstill

// Lands
    4 Wasteland
    2 Island
    4 Volcanic Island
    4 Faerie Conclave
    4 Mishra's Factory
    1 Strip Mine
    1 Library of Alexandria
    3 Shivan Reef

// Spells
    4 Force of Will
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Time Walk
    4 Fire/Ice
    4 Nevinyrral's Disk
    4 Mana Drain
    4 Standstill
    3 Misdirection
    4 Stifle
    1 Lotus Petal
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mox Sapphire
    3 Chain of Vapor
    2 Teferi's Response

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 4 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Maze of Ith
SB: 3 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Teferi's Response

My version has ALOT of permission with cards like CoV and Response.  With both Stifle and Response opponents will be very weery of attacking your lands.

[Kushluk]

Wow, what a unique and refreshing build. And I thought we were all Cookie-Cuter T1 players for a second.  Good for him!

I will have to rethink what I play. This is just another lesson to never blindly accept what people tell you is "good", go and discover for yourself.

Anyway, fruity speeches aside, I think he is trying to focus on the two things that make landstil tick -
(1) Blowing Up Stuff (nevinyrall's Disk)
(2) Drawing Lots and Lots of Cards (5 Ancestrals)

He makes those things happen more quickly with Moxen.

Although I think that any random offcolor Mox is probably worse than a lotus petal - since your mox is going to get blown up anyway.

Stifle is a house against Slavery, it's really funney to watch em' when they think they have you slaved (Thanks for wasting 10 mana buddy, especially after I blew up all your welders).  4 Stifle dosen't surprise me at all. I live in what I consider a Combo Meta - I never go with less than 3 MD.

If anyone cares, here is my current (outdated as of now I suppose - must reconsider) Landstill (read it Jazzycat!):

4x Volcanic Island
4x Island
1x Mountain
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Flooded Strand
1x Library Of Alexandria
4x Faerie Conclave
4x Mishra's Factory
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Ruby
4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine

3x Stifle
4x Force Of Will
4x Mana Drain
4x L-Bolt
3x Fire/Ice
2x Misdirection
4x Nevinyrall's Disk

1x Ancestral Recall
4x Standstill
3x Impulse
1x Time Walk

SB - Changes but some general choices
REB, Breath Of Darigaaz (for madness, etc), Artifact Blast , Chalice, Tormod's Crypt, Rack and Ruin, 1x more Stifle, usual suspects

[tehmajickguy]

When asked about his build, Ray says that he built it the way he did to specifically beat Tog. Ironically enough, his only loss all day was to Hulk. 5 Strips and 4 Stifles are there to implement an extreme mana-denial element, it seems to work extremely well.

[Kushluk]

Disks (esp. off mana drain) are an undervalued and underused tool for mana denial in the control mirror. No one notes this, but it is a total truth.

Disking away Tog/control slaver Moxen is both fun and productive!

[jazzykat]

If anyone cares, here is my current (outdated as of now I suppose - must reconsider) Landstill (read it Jazzycat!):

...Oh...you know I did.

I was at the last tournament and I believe I saw the deck in action but not closely. I really don't understand the inclusion of so many moxes and disks but hey disk is so powerful maybe synergy isn't that important.

I am going to ponder if the deck was a heavy metagame consideration or if it has a reasonably strong game against all decks.

[proGaming]

When asked about his build, Ray says that he built it the way he did to specifically beat Tog. Ironically enough, his only loss all day was to Hulk. 5 Strips and 4 Stifles are there to implement an extreme mana-denial element, it seems to work extremely well.

Wait, what?  Landstill > Tog.  The only time Tog stands a decent chance is when they're running the 5 strip version and the Landstill player is not running any Responses and only 3 Stifles.  And yes, I have tested this matchup greatly so i'm not pulling stuff out of my ass

[PandaPokemon]

Dominate the Phyrexian Dreadnought =P  He also dominated my faerie conclave LoL.  (Note the morphling.de decklist is wrong.  It is a dominate which can be Cunning Wished for not a Damping Matrix)

I played versus him in the tournament first round with Landstill, which I never played with before.  (I had no idea who he was BTW)  He absolutely trounced me.  To answer your question about the moxes and Nev disk, the moxes often accelerated him into casting his larger spells like Cunning Wish and Fact or Fiction (which he resolved twice versus me).  

He was also pretty careful with his moxes.  I believe he held back some of his moxes, like put one down, cast a disk, blow the board then put the other two down.  I found that he was always a step ahead of me with the extra mana he had from an off colour mox.

In the second match (it was mirror btw), I remember he boarded out his 4 disks while I left mine in (I have no idea how to play this deck remember?  )  He brought in the two BEB the two REB and the Fact or Fiction as he did not cunning wish for it.

I have some notes from the match which I abandoned as the game wore on as it was tiring to write everything but I can search for specific details if anybody wants.

[Kowal]

The five moxen have, in my mind, always been really necessary.  The boost they give you infinately outweighs losing an extra permanent to disk.

Cunning Wish was key to winning many of Ray's matchups, and was most notable in the Mask matchups he faced (round three, top eight, and AGAIN in finals).  I'm not sure if Womp fixed it yet, but the Damping Matrix is supposed to be a Dominate in his sideboard.  Dominate he disovered months back is really good at stealing Dreadnought.

His high stifle count was definately the play.  Who doesn't use fetchlands?  Landstill can't really win without heavy resource denial.  It's kind of like suicide but the hand rape slots work in reverse.

Also, there was not a large mindslaver presence.  Workshop slaver players played other decks because they were no longer convinced of the workshop's power, and control slaver players would rather play Hulk.

[TheRock]

I have to agree and disagree with some of the points here.

It was only a matter of time before somebody started adding off-color Moxen to the deck and winning with it.  The speed is such a major boost for this deck.

However, I fail to see any reason why this deck ever needed Cunning Wish, regardless of metagame or the increase in Moxen.  The toolbox U/R Landstill provides is far inferior to the options available for Keeper and Hulk to use Cunning Wish with.  It's not like we have Vampiric Tutor or Berserk to dig for in our sideboards, and we can't set up plays with cards like Accumulated Knowledge or Yawgmoth's Will either.

I just don't see Cunning Wish in this deck.  Is this really worth removing a card that can take out Goblin Welder, Goblin Lackey, and any Fish creature for one mana?

[firebird365]

@ Zanetanos101:

His metagame might have been good for it, but don't you think 7 MD removal cards (as opposed to the usual TWELVE) is a drastic change? Personally, I try not to run less than 10 removal cards, but that's due to the aggro-dominated meta I'm in. The Cunning Wishes definately helped during the Mask matchup, but how do you think he handled FCG?

@ proGaming:

Cunning Wish seems unorthodox, but it definately seems to work in Landstill - it may be anti-synergetic, but so is Fire/Ice. If he replaced the Wishes with Fire/Ice and Responses, do you think that his deck would have more trouble against random aggro?

[Edit: Oops. )

@ themajickguy:

So this is essentially an aggressive version of Landstill, that focuses on keeping the enemy down in the beginning? I've sometimes played the deck like that, but never changed the decklist to support that strategy. It's an interesting change.

@ Kowal:

You say that Cunning Wish was key to winning most of his matches; do you think that the advantage of having a toolbox sideboard (and Wish) is better than just siding in traditional hate (like Maze of Ith and R+R, for example).

@ The Rock:

However, I fail to see any reason why this deck ever needed Cunning Wish, regardless of metagame or the increase in Moxen. The toolbox U/R Landstill provides is far inferior to the options available for Keeper and Hulk to use Cunning Wish with.

I don't necessarily disagree with your point here, but what disadvantages do you feel make Cunning Wish not worth it? Landstill is very good for its ability to handle nearly everything in the same way (Disk) and its strategy is centered around using it. Adding Cunning Wish to the mix makes the deck more versatile, even though it takes up the space of Lightning Bolt (or another removal card).

Thanks for the opinions, everyone.

[Grand Inquisitor]

I really hope Ray lets us know the real logic behind his deck choices, but since I did play against him, I'll chime in.  I think Ray's list shows an effort to play a more flexible control strategy, and to focus on the long game.  From what I hear, Richard's deck and playstyle is much more aggressive, and really forces the opponent to overcommit by beating with lands.  Disk takes care of the rest.  His is a much more focused attack.

Since I never saw lightning bolts, I was much more liberal with trading my life for cards or time.  I don't want to speak for Ray, but I think he probably could have stole one of our games if he had been running the more aggressive version.

Ray says that he built it the way he did to specifically beat Tog

Wait, what? Landstill > Tog. The only time Tog stands a decent chance is when they're running the 5 strip version and the Landstill player is not running any Responses and only 3 Stifles

I was also the only person to beat Ray on Saturday, and if you look at my Hulk build, you'll see why; I built it to wreck the control mirror.  My mana-base was built with Landstill in mind, and I used fetchlands with avoiding stifle in mind.  Mostly, though, the day belonged to 4x Duress.  This is certainly the best card to break a standstill.

After a broken standstill, Landstill has a full hand, and is often trying to answer an opponent's threat.  Because the opponent has imperfect information (and this is especially important in the control mirror), Landstill is allowed to answer the threat in an optimal way and conserve their card advantage.  With duress, the tables are turned, which allowed me to duress first, and then play the appropriate threat/counter measure.

I don't want to get into details, but wastelands in Hulk are bad in my opinion.  Wastelands mean that you only have room to run three colors.  This means you can support Back to Basics, and probably should since obviously expect to play a control strategy (since wastelands already slow the momentum of the game).

This was the real back breaker against Ray.  In the middle of game 2, Back to Basics slowed his capabilities and allowed me time to set up the big Yawgwill.  This was the deciding card, even though it was duress which allowed me to get it on the board.

In fairness to Ray, I had Mana Crypt game 1, which allowed me to sick things early with Intuition, and later rolls that may have killed me went my way.

[proGaming]

@ proGaming:

Cunning Wish seems unorthodox, but it definately seems to work in Landstill - it may be anti-synergetic, but so is Fire/Ice. If he replaced the Wishes with Fire/Ice and Responses, do you think that his deck would have more trouble against random aggro?

As for the decklist, why 3 Impules? Some people (like myself) like the extra utility, but the general consensus on search cards is that they're unneeded in Landstill.

FI isn't really Anti-Synergic because you won't cast Standstill if you have a good target for the FI (Lackey, Welder, whatever).  I don't think it would have a lot more trouble with random aggro with FI and Responses.  FI hoses weenies, Response kills they're Strips or Burn and CoV bounces things that you need to stop for a turn.

I did not run 3 Impulse in my deck, it's in the decklist after mine

From what I hear, Richard's deck and playstyle is much more aggressive, and really forces the opponent to overcommit by beating with lands. Disk takes care of the rest. His is a much more focused attack.

This is very true.  I play against Shock Wave on MWS when he needs to playtest and he plays a very aggressive game with Landstill but times he does hold back in order to Drain something and have a very explosive next turn.

[firebird365]

I've been testing a 3-color Landstill (with 3 basic Islands) against a very, very heavy land-denial Sui Black (5 Strips, 4 Stifles, 3 B2B, 4 Sinkhole) and B2B always shuts me down. Ray: Did you face any B2B or Blood Moon during the day? It seems like your 1 basic Island wouldn't do much with regard to that.

[proGaming]

I've been testing a 3-color Landstill (with 3 basic Islands) against a very, very heavy land-denial Sui Black (5 Strips, 4 Stifles, 3 B2B, 4 Sinkhole) and B2B always shuts me down. Ray: Did you face any B2B or Blood Moon during the day? It seems like your 1 basic Island wouldn't do much with regard to that.

Looks at Grand's post.  Ray lost to Duress, B2B.

GI: Where is your Hulk list so I can take a look at it?

[Grand Inquisitor]

http://www.morphling.de/coverages/top8decks.php?id=125

I ran the island sort of as a joke since I didn't know if I'd like Mana Crypt or could support B2B on 4 basics.  If I were to run Hulk today I'd keep the MD the same, and go -1 island, -1 BEB +2 stifle in the board.

[Shock Wave]

First of all, congrats to Ray on the win. He took a different approach to the deck and it worked out for him, which is great. That being said, adding 5 moxes to Landstill is not a good idea, regardless of the possibility of being able to "accelerate". What, may I ask, are you going to be accelerating into? This deck hardly needs an early Disk to beat Slaver, contrary to what people seem to think.

The benefits of accelerating into an early Standstill are far outweighed by the detriments of running a manabase that is counterintuitive with the strategy of the deck. Sure, in the control mirror, you can accelerate into Standstill, but you'll be dropping far fewer lands and holding onto a lot more moxes. Once you have 7 cards, you no longer have an advantage with Standstill on the board in the control mirror. During the time in which you've accumulated those 7 cards, you absolutely MUST have ramped up your mana base, or you've fallen far behind the 8-ball. Moxes do not faciliate this strategy.

Cunning Wish? For what, and against what? Mask? Why not Maze of Ith and Nev's Disk? Those have always been far better tools against Mask than Cunning Wish.