GAT '04 vs Hulk: Which is the better choice?

[tehmajickguy]

Up until the past several weeks, it was general knowledge that in any given tournament, Hulk was a vastly superior choice to GAT for just about any given tournament. Ever since its introduction, Hulk has been one of, if not THE, deck to beat in power tournaments. With its efficient draw power and overall consistancy, Hulk has been the tool of many great t1 players for t8ing at a major power tourney. But over the past several weeks, Ultima has managed to take home multiple pieces of power with his innovative new take on an old favorite, while boasting nothing short of remarkable win/loss records. Rather than post a comprehensive comparison between both decks, I throw out the question to all of you: Based upon the current meta, what do you believe to be a better choice to take to a large power tourney like the impending Waturbury next weekend: Hulk or GAT?

[Smmenen]

Ultima's list is surprisingly robust.  I have done my own testing with the deck and I'm impressed - something not easily done for a GAT list.

Ultimately however, I come down on the side that a well built Tog list has marginally superior matchups and outweighs whatever marginal advantages you get in running GAT save in specific metagames.  I.e against combo, Workshops, and the like.  Ultima has made huge improvements, but insufficient to make it superior to the best builds of Hulk.

Steve

[Zherbus]

I really only know of two recent GAT reports.

Suicide Black   WIN
Gro             WIN
Gro           TIE
Hulk           WIN
Hulk           TIE
Big O           WIN
U/G Fish        WIN
Hulk             WIN

MonoBlack    WIN
NetherVoid   WIN
Hulk      WIN
Mirror      WIN
Food-Chain   N/A
WelderMud   WIN
Hulk      WIN
Mirror      WIN

What we learn - Nothing really.

Monoblack isn't all that good anyway. Whether it's Dauthi Slayer.dec, Void, or Suicide, GAT will and always has killed it by virtue of running creatures and Misdirections.

GAT does typically beat Hulk and that is the strongest arguement for it.

Take those two archtypes away and you're left with: Mirror, Big O, Mud, Gro, and U/G Fish as usable data. Of those are 1 match each, so there's not alot of analysis to be drawn there. Also, Mud, Gro, and U/G Fish are statistical rarities.

Missing from both of these reports are decks that are very real possibilities of exposure to most people. Examples range from both Slavers, Landstill, Keeper, Madness, FCG (there was no match played out, remember), Stax (though becoming a statistical rarity like Mud), Dragon, and standard Fish.

[Hi-Val]

I've been playing around with GAT for the past few weeks, and it is certainly a robust deck, as Steve says. It usually comes out on top in the Tog match, which alone makes it pretty strong. Part of the strength of Hulk though is that it can play aggro or control, and GAT is pretty much resigned to playing aggro.

What we need are win percentages for both decks when taken to tournaments vs/ T8. I don't know how reliable this data would end up being, but it would show what percentage of decks brought to tournaments make the top 8. Hulk is played so much more than GAT however that it would invariably skew the figures.

GAT suffers from being the quiet kid with a superstar brother. Hulk has been in vogue ever since GenCon last year, bumping GAT out of the spotlight. The deck didn't get weaker at all, it just isn't being played that much. And I find that making huge Dryads is so much more fun than swinging with Psychatog for the win.

On a semi-related topic, I might soon be putting clown rainbow afros on my dryads for superpimp flava.

[Wudil]

I've played different builds of GaT for around 6 month now and thought there couldn't be another good build of "Tog" which could revalise with it as I was even winning against Tog himself!

My weaknesses were againt every Prison.dec (TnT wasn't that easy but putting and pumping a Dryad on the board helped a lot in order to control its fatties until TnT packed Duplicant...) and most of the Combo parts. Since many of the combo decks disappeared (except maybe Dragon) of the field, it became "easier" to play GaT out there (except that Slaver.dec workshop or mana drain builds replaced Combo as bad matchups)

But recently, I tested (thanks to you Toad   ) and adopted HS build which seemed to be sooooo great (Smenen thanks for your job ). Its matchups against Prison are even better with the red splash, same come with TnT (it's still a hard matchup though) because the Tog touch the board only to swing for the game most of the times. Against Dragon, I could pack 3 Purges and with Intuition, it was like GG. And all of the other matchups (Slaver also) are even better!!

This is why I think, even depending upon your metagame (mine is weird in France), Tog is the best build to run between both of GaT and HS.

PS:

And I find that making huge Dryads is so much more fun than swinging with Psychatog for the win.

"Vintage has nothing to do with fun".
I mean that I felt the same about it but YOU have to choose the best deck even if one is coolest than the other if you really want to reach good results which is why we do tournaments, right?

[Ultima]

Well, I cannot disagree with the fact that GAT has some worse matchs than Hulk.

The way I see it in testing at the moment, it looks like this

GAT's bad matchs-

Slavery (workshop)
Food-Chain Goblins (Post-board, it gets aLOT easier but not a cake-walk)


Hulk's bad matchs-

Slavery ( even then its almost about even)
GAT (Hulk has a really tough time winning here)

I should also note that artifact aggro was not in GAT's favor either up until a few days ago when I made new change to GAT that turned out to improve TNT, Slavery, and aggro matchs to such an extent that I was speechless.  I am still testing but right now, it looks like I'll be replacing thirst for knowledge with something else that gives GAT an amazing edge for its bad matchs while keeping its good ones intact.

The way I see it as far as a tourny is that, GAT and Hulk can both beat alot of the tourny regulars without alot of difficulty like Sui, Sligh, Void, Stompy and rogue things.  So when you get to last couple swiss rounds and top 8 it looks like Hulk, Slavery, TNT, Dragon, Control Slaver, etc.  
GAT can win most of those, but you hit Slavery and it falls to pieces.  That's why I told Smmenen that if GAT can find a way to take Slavery reliably, its tier 1 hands down.

Another way of looking at it is, GAT's the best choice for a no to 5 proxy event where Hulk is the most likely deck to play in the finals.  But in a 10-proxy or huge event like Waterbury, Hulk looks like a better choice.

(but in point to fact, GAT has had insanely good records at waterbury including 1st place last time)

[eddavatar]

GAT's biggest selling point is first turn dryads and thus its ability to stop aggro/randromness early. They are unstoppable if casted first turn. But it is a lot worse as a control deck comparing to Hulk. Deed for 2 is a lot worse for GAT.

They are similar enough decks to consider bringing into a tournament, but the less powered it is (aka less workshops), the more it swings to GAT's favor considering the fact that low-powered tourneys usually pack more hate that would cause splash damage against tog. (eg. tomod's crypt)

[Wudil]

GAT's bad matchs-

Slavery (workshop)
Food-Chain Goblins (Post-board, it gets aLOT easier but not a cake-walk)

I shall say that you forgot to tell about all  the other workshop.dec.

GaT HAS bad matchups against every Prison builds (TriniStax, Slavery of course and even W-Mud).
TnT isn't that easy to win for GaT too since it packed Sundering Titan & Duplicant (+ 3sphere MD in place of Blood Moon + Pillars)

I don't really know and I'm maybe wrong but it seems you've not played a lot against workshop.dec in your tournaments Ultima which can mislead your point of view of these matchups

The fact that you rarely play against them and also that there maybe aren't many good workshop players in your metagame let you think that these one aren't sooooo bad matchups but in a 10 proxy tourny or a big big tournament (over 50 players) like Waterbury, this could be a huge mistake to take GaT over Hulk thinking the build has the same bad matchups.

[Hi-Val]

I feel as if I am ruining the deck when I have 4 Oxidize post-board, but they really are clutch in the Workshop match. You can side out Duress to grab something much more powerful.

Ultima, what is your new tech? If you don't want to make it public, at least PM me with it!

And tangentially:

"Vintage has nothing to do with fun".

Any Spike who plays T1 without wanting to have fun is misleading themselves. T2 is where the hardcore Spikes get their jollies because of the larger prizes and stiffer competition. T1 still has a relaxed "kitchen table" feel to it. Besides, if it were all about playing the best decks, why do people play combo when they can play Slaver or Hulk and Just Win? End hijack.

I will be tinkering around with GAT for the next few weeks, I should have some tangible results by then. Should we be focusing on GAT by itself, or also take a look at decks like Dryad Hate that eschew Togs for Damping Matrix and red?

[Ultima]

@Wudil

Actually, in point to fact, I have played and tested alot versus these workshop decks you speak of.  

The real fact of the matter is, is that Stax and other Workshop are inconseqencial to Slavery.  That is to say that Slavery is the primary concern because most people end up playing Slavery if they can play Stax or Mud.  That enhanced by that fact that GAT has a better game against prison then slavery.  With a combination of oxdizes and hurkyl's recall, GAT can sb for prison and win.  I can confirm that from testing.  But slavery is the most resilant workshop deck to Hate and is alot harder to beat.  Additionally, I tend to not worry about it because while Slavery is good, prison is bad.

TNT is not as bad you think.  Like I said before, in the last couple days, it just got a whole lot better, enough to where its not even a bad match anymore.

[LizardKING]

GAT's bad matchs-

Slavery (workshop)
Food-Chain Goblins (Post-board, it gets aLOT easier but not a cake-walk)


Hulk's bad matchs-

Slavery ( even then its almost about even)
GAT (Hulk has a really tough time winning here)

I really agree with that, and I would like to add Dragon to both lists. The differences between GAT and Hulk appears after sideboarding.
Most of the time, the Dragon player will side in Xantid Swarm against Tog (to deal with counters and Coffin purge), and everything will be fine. Nevertheless, against GAT, Dragon has to deal both with more counters (3 MisD on top of the HS basis : 4 FoW+4 MD), Ground Seal and it faces a 1 turn quicker deck than HS. The SB choices are harder to make as far as :

-Deeds seem good against Seals and Dryads, but cannot handle counters.
-Xantids handle counters but is useless against Seals.
-Xantids and Deeds cannot be side in at the same time, as Deeds crush Xantids.

So to my mind, GAT has better sideboard options against Dragon (not mentioning the use of Damping Matrix suggested by D. Hernandez) than Hulk.

[Smmenen]

Well, I cannot disagree with the fact that GAT has some worse matchs than Hulk.

The way I see it in testing at the moment, it looks like this

GAT's bad matchs-

Slavery (workshop)
Food-Chain Goblins (Post-board, it gets aLOT easier but not a cake-walk)


Hulk's bad matchs-

Slavery ( even then its almost about even)
GAT (Hulk has a really tough time winning here)

I should also note that artifact aggro was not in GAT's favor either up until a few days ago when I made new change to GAT that turned out to improve TNT, Slavery, and aggro matchs to such an extent that I was speechless.  I am still testing but right now, it looks like I'll be replacing thirst for knowledge with something else that gives GAT an amazing edge for its bad matchs while keeping its good ones intact.

The way I see it as far as a tourny is that, GAT and Hulk can both beat alot of the tourny regulars without alot of difficulty like Sui, Sligh, Void, Stompy and rogue things.  So when you get to last couple swiss rounds and top 8 it looks like Hulk, Slavery, TNT, Dragon, Control Slaver, etc.  
GAT can win most of those, but you hit Slavery and it falls to pieces.  That's why I told Smmenen that if GAT can find a way to take Slavery reliably, its tier 1 hands down.

Another way of looking at it is, GAT's the best choice for a no to 5 proxy event where Hulk is the most likely deck to play in the finals.  But in a 10-proxy or huge event like Waterbury, Hulk looks like a better choice.

(but in point to fact, GAT has had insanely good records at waterbury including 1st place last time)

I don't agree with your assessment of the Hulk matchup.  It is a close matchup that is probably slightly in GAT's favor.  Hulk being able to run 3 Duress maindeck makes a nice difference and the fact that GAT needs a more specific set of cards to win suggests that whatever advantage GAT has, Hulk can come much closer than you might think.  Most of the games GAT won they won the turn before Hulk would have or had complete dominance over the game which suggests that GAT is putting all its eggs in one basket.  The bottom line problem is that Dryad, while an awesome creature, is inferior to Tog.

You are also testing mostly Aggro/Control/Aggro-Control decks with Slaver.  Combo is a big part of non NE fields and GAT has a much worse game than Tog against Rector and Draw7.

Steve

[Wudil]

GAT has better sideboard options against Dragon (not mentioning the use of Damping Matrix suggested by D. Hernandez) than Hulk

I really don't agree with you here.

Hulk is most of the time packing 2 to 3 Purges in its sideboard in order to fight with Dragon. Intuition on both of them + Duress or 3 Purges and it's game. Xantids can be though but Deed can get use of them. If the HS player really fear them, he can MD another Deed and/or a F/I he had in side.
Btw, I nearly forgot that HS can pack 1 to 2 BeB also in its SB which makes him having more and more options to use against Dragon. After that, the player has to know what to side out in order to get the best options for him.

Any Spike who plays T1 without wanting to have fun is misleading themselves. T2 is where the hardcore Spikes get their jollies because of the larger prizes and stiffer competition. T1 still has a relaxed "kitchen table" feel to it. Besides, if it were all about playing the best decks, why do people play combo when they can play Slaver or Hulk and Just Win? End hijack.

I mean that I felt the same about it but YOU have to choose the best deck even if one is coolest than the other if you really want to reach good results which is why we do tournaments, right?
I shall also say that some players choose to play combo as it can be fun decks but also because most of the best ones (Long in its apogee or Draw7 nowadays for example) are really really competitive.

[Ultima]

I don't agree with your assessment of the Hulk matchup.  It is a close matchup that is probably slightly in GAT's favor.  Hulk being able to run 3 Duress maindeck makes a nice difference and the fact that GAT needs a more specific set of cards to win suggests that whatever advantage GAT has, Hulk can come much closer than you might think.  Most of the games GAT won they won the turn before Hulk would have or had complete dominance over the game which suggests that GAT is putting all its eggs in one basket.  The bottom line problem is that Dryad, while an awesome creature, is inferior to Tog.

You are also testing mostly Aggro/Control/Aggro-Control decks with Slaver.  Combo is a big part of non NE fields and GAT has a much worse game than Tog against Rector and Draw7.

Steve

I don't think so.  While the bottom line is that GAT has the edge over Hulk whether it be big or marginal, the fact of the matter is that it has the edge.  Regarding Rector and Twister, i think that GAT has a good game against Rector while Twister is a different story.

I have played Rector at both tournies and testing, i really don't think its a bad match at all.  It seems like a 50/50, where if rector gets a broken hand with disruption then you lose but if not then you can play the tog game and win or combo out yourself.  Rector is a very inconsistent deck IMO and twister is far more of a threat.

Twister is a much more complicated issue.  Twister is like Keeper in that, in both testing and tourny play it really depends on the player.  You, Smmenen, were actually right next to me when i played and beat twister in the first round of Conn. Its like if there's an experienced player behind the deck then it could be a problem but if not then its not that difficult.  I suspect that the player in Conn with twister was not very experienced with the deck yet so it was alot easier.

Then you always have to take account of the inconsistency of combo in general.  I concede that Hulk may have a better game against Combo but I think its pretty slight and marginal.

[LizardKING]

Hulk is most of the time packing 2 to 3 Purges in its sideboard in order to fight with Dragon. Intuition on both of them + Duress or 3 Purges and it's game. Xantids can be though but Deed can get use of them.

Well, for sure Deed can get rid of Xantid, but to my mind, there is a problem of speed in your point. To beat Dragon with the method you gave, you assume that :

1) You find Deed and play it with a backup.
2) You find Intuition and play it with a backup.
3) At the time you play them, the Dragon player has not gone off.

These three steps can happen, and it really depends on each player's builds (my current decklist has undergone several changes compared to classic builds, that among these, I now have 3 MisDirection MD), but for example, take a look at G. De Luca list at the last Milano tourney : I can assure you will really have a hard time to fulfill your plans.

[Apollyon]

Misdirection is good vs Dragon as well. You change the target to something else in their GY so they don't get the Dragon engine going quite as quickly.

[Smash]

Misdirection is good vs Dragon as well. You change the target to something else in their GY so they don't get the Dragon engine going quite as quickly.

Read animate dead, it don't work like it's printed.

[Dante]

No one posted a farking rules question. Apollyon tried to explain how MisD is good vs dragon. I told him it was not and why.

QED

to explain further for anyone confused:

Animate Dead
Color= Black  Type= Enchantment  Cost= 1B
Text (5th+errata): When ~this~ comes into play, if it's in play, it becomes an enchant creature. Put target creature card from a graveyard into play under your control enchanted by ~this~. ; Enchanted creature gets -1/-0. ; When ~this~ leaves play, destroy enchanted creature. It can't be regenerated. [Oracle 2001/08/24]

Enters play as a global enchantment and then becomes an Enchant Creature as a triggered ability (see Rule 404) upon entering play. It follows all the rules for Enchant Creature cards from then on. [WotC Rules Team 1997/03/14]

So when the spell is on the stack, it's still a global enchantment, so nothing to MisD.  The triggered ability changes it to a targeted Enchant Creature, but that's not MisD'able.

[Matt]

It is Willbender-able, but that's neither here nor there.

[Apollyon]

Ahhh. I thought that it required a target when casting. I had assumed, wrongly, that when it said "target creature card", it meant that a target was required upon casting. The errata is much uglier than the text from RV and 4th editions.

[Smash]

Ahhh. I thought that it required a target when casting. I had assumed, wrongly, that when it said "target creature card", it meant that a target was required upon casting. The errata is much uglier than the text from RV and 4th editions.

Yes, it is very ugly

But... the game doesn't like you enchanting stuff not in play directly from your hand. That is the main reason I know of for the change.

[Apollyon]

They should have written it instead:
When ~ comes into play, if it is still in play, put target creature from your graveyard into play. ~ becomes a creature enchantment that enchants that creature.

The whole line break thing is awful. I don't see why they write a whole section on rules for Mindslaver, yet, they don't allow a very simple mechanic like this to just be Enchant Dead Creature.

[DavidHernandez]

Ultima said:

GAT's bad matchs-

Slavery (workshop)

I don't find this to be the case.  With my build, I have beaten Slavery 100% in tourneys.  This includes both builds (Workshop and Mana Drain).

GAT is a house.  I love it.  I still think it can run 2 Togs, and leave the Fastbond out.  

Ultima's build and my build differ by 2 cards (I removed Fastbond in favor of a second Basic Island, and I run 1 DA and 1 FoF instead of 2 DA).  Our sideboards are completely different because I run a RED splash.

GAT vs. Hulk I also find to be a good matchup for GAT, though it can be extremely tight.

Dave