[Deck Discussion] Fish - Gay/R build & choices

[skecreatoR]

This is an attempt to create some discussion in what, in my opinion, seems as a very viable deck, both powered and without. I will try to cover the mana base, creature base & draw/disrupt base, as that is the core of Gay/R: Mana > creatures > disruption, the second and third changing places depending on the matchup. I will try to cover some aspects of playing the deck and as well try to use my own experience. Without further adeu:

Gay/R skeleton

Mana base

Many players always point out that Gay/R have the worst manabase of the vintage decks. The reason is that the deck relies heavily on non-basic lands. Strip effects have never been that useful casting colored spells, and the man-lands would rather give a beat than throw a Spiketail Hatchling.

Lands[Note: Man-lands & strips have been included, and will be included later also]:

4 x Volcanic Island
3 x Flooded Strand
2 x Island
4 x Wasteland
1 x Strip Mine
4 x Mishra's Factory
3 x Faerie Conclave

21 lands.

The fetch-lands are of open question. I myself haven't found a solution yet. Playing with three usually leaves your red mana deeper in the deck, but playing with four will in some cases lead to too much red mana, instead of a man-land. I personally stick with three, but have lately tried a totally different variant, playing 3 Flooded & 1 Wooded, plus also cutting a Island for a Mountain. This have increased stability in finding red, but also making one a bit more vulnerable to non-basic hate. Playing the 3-1 over 3 & 4 should only be done in a meta without too much nonbasic disruption, as Blood Moon becomes your total nemesis.

Strip Mine is a nobrainer, so is at least 3 Wasteland. The fourth is very viable in a good metagame, where 3 is enough in the rogueish & young metagame. Would recommend 4 Wasteland today, as Nonbasic is as much a part of magic as Moxen these days. Also, against mono-colored/no nonbasics, do NOT side these out. Losing 4 mana sources is way more then this little baby can handle, and at max you should side one out.

Playing 4 Factories and 3 Conclaves have for long been 'industry standard', but I have tested against control with 4 Conclaves, and I must say that I am very content with that change, and against aggro you gain another evasive animal which cannot be counted against.

Lastly, what can be done to improve the base, as this in many cases is my crucifix. I have not tried a single Shivan Reef, mainly because this deck need a colored source every single turn to power its man lands - have anyone tested this with success? I haven't, yet, but against Combo it might fit in perfectly.

Non-land mana:

1 x Mox Sapphire
1 x Mox Ruby
1 x Black Lotus

3 non-land sources, 24 total.

These accelerants of might are especially used to power out some very quick turn one plays, especially dropping a Null Rod, and then rendering your Mox useless, is a powerplay against the artificial decks played today. Few run the Mox Ruby, but in a heavy combo enviroment, I have found it very useful. Give it a shot, but remember it is very metagame dependant.

Recently playing the full 5 moxen in this deck have proved versatile against combo and some aggro, I find that removing precious spots from the deck to fit in the 3 off-color moxen isn't worth the extra speed. The deck have a very stable curve that ends at 5, and in real life ends at 2.
Budget can cover themselves with replacing the Lotus with its little brother, Lotus Petal, and in some cases replacing the Sapphire with a Mox Diamond, 'tho I would rather play two islands, or another Conclave. You rarely have a land to spare, as all lands in the deck work together as a machine.

Creature base

When players realized how many versatile utility creatures there is in the blue part of the magic pentagram, they did all try to fit them into the Fish complex, with varied success.

One version:

4 x Cloud of Faeries
4 x Spiketail Hatchling
3 x Grim Lavamancer
3 x Voidmage Prodigy / Rootwater Thief
4 x Mishra's Factory
3 x Faerie Conclave

14(21) creatures.

I prefer this version over the others because it is mainly both cheap and it packs the utility I want. Faeries are just amazing, powerplay is Land, spells/go, Factory/Conclave > Faerie > Standstill, go. That is 3 dmg a turn, and 3 cards when the opponent is forced to break the standstill.

Spiketail Hatchling has proved useful in many situations and I wouldn't replace them within my version.

The Lavamancers I only run threefold, because packing a fourth often led to entirely emtpy graveyards, giving me non-evasive, non-utility animals. They are both finishers and creature removal, but they require the resource that Fish always have ignored; the graveyard; and mentioned isn't full as often as the Lavamancers need it to be. Debating over a fourth Lavamancer I would only do in a heavy aggro metagame.

Lastly, the Voidmages or thiefs. I must say that I been dissapointed in both, none of them seem to add either the firepower or utility that I need often enough. Voidmage are amazing in the slower game, Rootwater is amazing against some combodecks, but tend to be very weak against aggro, besides being mana heavy. I'm actually not debating for/against these two, as I have found no solution myself. They both have strengths, and weaknesses, that are hard to ignore, but they are a part of the metagaming part in playing Gay/R, a very important part indeed.

The 'merfolk-engine' was especially used in older builds of Fish, I have personally never liked them that much. Surely, Lord of Atlantis is a house when played in multiples, they can speed the deck up with at least 1-2 turns to kill, but the removal of Lavamancers and Faeries have only made the deck weaker against the general field, I believe. This is another thing I would like to have up to debate.

Draw & Disruption base

Disruption is the reason that Gay/R is competetive. Countering and wasting your opponents lands is a way that Gay/R can keep its ingame edge against more explosive decks. Because it is a very reactive base, non-land wise, the deck usually have to counter the threads or hosers, and focusing on the beatdown. Mike Flores wonderful article comes to mind, and reading and understanding that article is one of the most important thing you can do to become a better Fish player; who is the beatdown.

A usually non-powered version:

4 x Force of Will
3 x Misdirection
3 x Daze
2 x Stifle
3 x Null Rod
3 x Fire/Ice

18 disruptive elements.

Force of Will is the glue, and it is like cement in this deck. If you don't play these fourfold, you lose. Simple as that. Don't argue against it. Just don't.

Misdirection is probably the card I switch most between stifle. 3/2 or 2/3 is just an impossible question to answer. To increase the effectiveness of my combination, I run a single Stifle sideboard, to be able to go 2/3 after boarding. A decision im very happy with and surely will stick too.

Some say don't play Daze if you don't play four. I say that is bullshit. Until recent times, I played only 2, and never had a problem. I recently increased to three, mainly because of the smaller creatures that had arrived and the mirror.

Null Rod is as important as the Force of Will, play 3 or you will suffer greatly against artifcial decks. Powerplay is turn 1 rod, with waste turn 2. This can singlehandedly give you the edge to win the game, due to speed.

Lastly, Fire/Ice is one of the best utility cards ever printed. Divided damage, tapping and drawing in one card is just too much for the price paid. Plus it is an effective finisher.

Drawing, I usually use a pencil, but found this to be as good:

4 x Standstill
4 x Curiosity
1 x Ancestral Recall
1 x Time Walk

10 draw.

Standstill is another reason the deck survives and exist. It is one of the meta's toughest locks, and breaking this lock will usually resolve in gameloss due to the amazing card advantage. Ancestral Recall - you have it, you play it. Simply the best card in the game when playing blue. Time Walk is useful, 'tho not needed.

Curiosity is a powerful drawer placed on the right creatures[Note to self: Faerie Conclave is NOT the right creature] and should be played as a four-of, imho. Some people have found the card bad, I guess they just played it one to many times on their Factory, but I honestly don't know.

***

So, in light of recent readings, the complete deck list for a better view:

Ske is GAY.dec[Known also as Gay/R, but always use a name. Always.]:

Mana [22]:
4 x Volcanic Island
3 x Flooded Strand
1 x Island
4 x Wasteland
R x Strip Mine
4 x Mishra's Factory
3 x Faerie Conclave
R x Black Lotus
R x Mox Sapphire

Creature [12]:
4 x Cloud of Faeries
3 x Spiketail Hatchling
3 x Grim Lavamancer
2 x Voidmage Prodigy

Disrupt [17]:
4 x Force of Will
3 x Misdirection
2 x Daze
2 x Stifle
3 x Null Rod
3 x Fire/Ice

Draw [9]:
4 x Standstill
4 x Curiosity
R x Ancestral Recall

That is my most current list, and tested beyond belief against Hulk, Keeper and MD-Slave.dec. I know it does not match my exact notes above, but this was not a exact list, it was suggestions and ideas, especially former ideas, that was changed for this very metaed version. That is the one of many beauties the fish player will find. Metagaming this deck is both fun and very important. This can't be mentioned enough.

Sideboarding:

As essential as the metagame tuning.

Mine:
4 x Rack & Ruin
1 x Stifle
1 x Null Rod
4 x Tormods Crypt
4 x Red Elemental Blast
1 x Daze

This is just my version, feel free to change and not use it all, it is very metagamed towards the mentioned decks.

Some things I would like to have discussed:

The creature base. Voidmage over Rootwater or the other way.

Lightning Bolt over Fire/Ice. Does it have any merits?

Viability of Gay/R against Masque, Dragon, Draw7.

To finish it all, a personal comment. This is not an intended primer or the like, just some ideas of my own build of Gay/R - Fish. I wrote this for myself, but I wrote it first of all to generate some debate over this deck, as I can't really find any good discussions about this both Powered and budget deck. I have given my thoughts on my Decklist and older versions of it, and I would like you to do the same. All kind of wicked ideas is welcome, Hesitation is one I would like to see discussed as well

Thanks for reading.

- ske<3

[Hi-Val]

Goblin Vandal is better than Voidmage or Thief in any metagame with artifacts, which is all of them. Slaver in particular has an incredibly hard time getting past one, especially with so much other disruption.

There are other threads about the deck, so I'll close by saying that anyone who wants the full discussion on the deck should look no further than the search function.

[yodoblec]

I tested out the vandal instead of the Voidmage Prodigy and it did much better than the Voidmage, it was easily able to hit something one or two times. I have not tested out the Rootwater Theif yet, but it's easy to tell it wouldn't be bad against Draw7 or a combo deck.

The 4th Conclave is always nice to draw, I like it being a 4-of most.

[xaos]

I noticed you running 2x mox and a Lotus.  While it may feel 'budget' to cut them, I personally don't think they add enough to the deck.  Have you ever had a Null Rod welded out because you ditched a Sapphire from yer full hand end of turn?  That is the suck- cards that are often useless, but eat precious card space in your hand(they could very well be running Rack and Ruin too-  Don't give them two good targets on your side).   To replace them, I'd up your Island count, as that's pretty low when you stop to think how hosed you could get against Blood Moon. Either way, I think the build is pretty solid.



OK, on to your discussion questions-

Gay/r vs Dragon:  Between Force of Will, Daze, and Stifle you should have the game in the bag.  Good sideboard options include Stifle(mine are all boarded) and Seal of Removal

Gay/r vs Mask variants:  I've unfortunately only been able to play against Kowal and his Ninja Mask build once, and as such I don't think I can really comment too well-  I made some bad play mistakes in the match, and lost pretty bad.  Good sideboard cards to include are Seal of Removal, Maze of Ith, among others.

Gay/r vs Draw7: I'm afraid I haven't even seen anyone play this deck, and really don't know how it would swing.  Though, my educated guess would lead me to believe with 6-8 0cc counters in the deck, and some amount of Stifle for the tendrils- you should be all set.  This deck began it's goodness in the Combo days of 6 months ago, I don't think it should have much problem here, either.

Bolt over Fire/Ice:  Fire/Ice wins this one.  I could only see running LB over it in an aggro driven environment, and you're probably not choosing the right deck for the meta in that case.  Fire/Ice is never dead- It's all been said before, but it can singlehandedly turn off an opponent's Mana Drain EOT, Fry two weenies at once, Kill the opponent, Stall attackers, or if all that fails, just 'cycle' it away anyway-  It's the card that leaves you with plenty of options.

Regarding the Thief/Voidmage slot, I suggest doing some playtesting with Serendib Efreet.  Personally, I think he's quite the man for the slot.

[skecreatoR]

I will most definitely catch me 4 Vandals[for the playset] and check them out. No doubt they are very good, and very overlooked, at least for me.

Xaos, I agree with the lotus actually. It is pretty much only good turn one - the deck don't really need 3 mana lategame, or even midgame. I like the mox so much that I won't take it out, it is always a little more explosive when you open with one of these.

Serendib Efreet, it looks so cool, actually. But I don't know how well the flyer fit into the scenery, it wrecks the already shaky mana, but I guess it really isn't a problem. I will test both and return with some results.

More ideas?

[MooSE]

You said you wanted to discuss hesitation.  It was tried in landstill at one point i know.  I think the results would apply here as well.  It didn't work, all the opponent has to do is play a cheap non threatening spell like brainstorm or something to trigger hesitation and then play their threat.  I guess it would be ok early game to tie up their mana a little bit but i don't think it's too great.

Fire/Ice is definately better than bolt, loads better, it can do so much that bolt just can't do.  I would imagine gay/r would do well aginst mask because all you really need to counter is their masks.  On another note, can mask be stifled?  If it can what would happen?

Some people have played Black Vise.  Under a standstill it's a no win situation which really sucks for them.  It's also good aginst control decks that like to keep a full hand of counters.

Also, one thing i try to keep myself from doing when playing this deck is getting into a counter war.  How do you avoid this situation?  Especially when they have a scepter or something on the table and i need to lay a null rod but can't afford to fight a counter war.  Any suggestions or ideas?

[firebird365]

... can mask be stifled?

You can Stifle the ability on the Mask (X: put a creature into play, etc), but the Masknought player can just pay another and put it into play.   Once it hits play, however, you can't Stifle the "flip-up" ability.

[MooSE]

But, it would ensure they didn't get it first turn off a ritual.  Dreadnaught can also be tapped down with Ice.  I think ice is very overlooked, i don't see it used nearly as often as it can be.  Usually they just use it to cantrip but it can be good for other things.  You can tap down Trinisphere to shut it off, tap down lands like workshops, creatures in order to get other creatures through.  

I think mask is one of those middle matchups, tough but not un-winnable.  In fact, with Null Rod, and Vandal it should be pretty fair.  What would be boarded in?

[Raven Fire]

Goblin Vandal is better than Voidmage or Thief in any metagame with artifacts, which is all of them.

I agree.  I also watched PTW use his mainboard mox monkey to similar effect.

[trotch]

I'm running 24 land including 5 Strips, is this too much?  I find that I am still sometimes mana-screwed, but flooding too much as well.

Also, is Fire/Ice absolutely necessary?  I am running 3 Stifle, 3 MisD, and a Fourth Lavamancer instead.

I am still learning the deck and appreciate any advice that can be given.  Here is my current build:

//NAME: Gay/r
        1 Mountain
        1 Bloodstained Mire
        2 Island
        3 Faerie Conclave
        4 Mishra's Factory
        4 Polluted Delta
        4 Volcanic Island
        1 Strip Mine
        4 Wasteland
        3 Misdirection
        3 Null Rod
        4 Curiosity
        4 Standstill
        4 Spiketail Hatchling
        4 Cloud of Faeries
        4 Grim Lavamancer
        3 Stifle
        3 Daze
        4 Force of Will
SB:  3 Sigil of Sleep
SB:  4 Blue Elemental Blast
SB:  4 Rack and Ruin
SB:  4 Red Elemental Blast

Obviously, the sideboard is terrible, it is just thrown together.  What else needs to be there?  I do love the Sigil of Sleep though.

Edit - I am unpowered

[Swanky]

If you're only going to run 2 Voidmages, you might as well not run any at all.  In general, the card hasn't seemed very useful to me, so perhaps I'm simply biased.  The ability has never been all that impressive to me, and I've rarely ever been in a position where his ability has saved the day.

Goblin Vandal, however, feels like something that should be an auto-include in a world of Spheres of all varieties.  No one enjoys paying 2R for a Grim Lavamancer, nor 3 for a Force of Will.

Serendib Efreets are very good in environments with a lot of aggression, but aren't horribly impressive in other metagames.  A three-power evasion man for three mana is decent, but the slot can be put to better use.

This seems rather facetious, but has anyone tested Frenetic Efreet in a Gay/R build?  My testing with the Frenetic one has been extremely limited, but he's been an enjoyable addition thus far.  I ask that you take this with an elephant-sized grain of salt, as this could simply be "Pet Card Bias."  Regardless, I feel as though the card has promise in that it's a decent evasion man with the ability to cheat death 50% of the time.

[nataz]

well fish is a meta-game deck...so all of my comments should be taken with a grain of salt, however I do disagree with a few of your points.

1) less then three grims
-grims are one of your most potent threats, eating welders and any other problem creatures. Its a one drop, so it comes down nice and early before other decks can do anything about it. Against tog it can ping and eat graveyards, against aggro it can cause headaches for combat math, it is direct damage, and a wizard (read counter spell) to boot! I would never really consider going for less then 4 of these main deck. So many uses, and one of the reasons why G/red is even possible.

2) As far as I knew the standard for conclaves was 2, not three. This is because of the issue of CIP lands, and blue sources. 3 I think is too many, and often times slows you down too much.

3) Ruby and lotus. This deck desperately needs constant blue mana. That ruby would be much better off as an island, and the lotus shouldn’t even be there. it puts an artifact into your graveyard to weld, and 3 mana isn’t the most useful of things when trying to activate manlands turn after turn. Except for turn 1/2 boosts, again, I really like lands instead. This deck really does have mana issues, and it really wants more islands, really all red needs is the volcs in the deck for the splash, anything else is overkill and weakening the base even more.

4) I also think you should toss in at least 4-5 fetches for grim use and color smoothing instead of only using three. Blood moon, if you don’t prepare for it, is basically already game over. Playing one more fetch is just going to help you get out from under it.


5) Really, you should be going 5 strip effects all the time. If strips aren’t good in your meta, you are going to be in trouble with this deck as mana stunting is one of its best modes of offense. 3 null rods, 5 strip, x stifles, 4 spiketails, 3 daze, all take advantage of mana droughts.

6) Although vandal and rootwater are good options, I think in most metas you really want to see a voidmage. Yes, its true there are a lot of artifacts out there but voidmage really does shine in a powered enviro. Combined with grim under standstill its just wrong, not to mention it swings for two. I would much rather have a voidmage against, gat, hulk, dragon, landstill, then the more meta-gameish vandal and thief. That’s not to say they cant be excellent, but only in very narrow metagames where you are facing all artifacts or all combo/control.


Also, some random notes:

Bolt can not be pitched to a force, and has none of the flexibility of fire\ice, I’ve had good luck against mask decks because of my sb artifact hate and counter base, draw 7 has been good to me too but I think that deck is hugely dependant on the person behind it. I also tend to beat up pretty well on dragon b\c of stifle, daze, force, and wastes. As for more discussion, I can’t remember whether it was on TMD 1.2 or 1.1, but there used to be a very good thread on gay red by PTW. It’s the one that he started when he first released it.  


Hope this helps
-Carter

[Hi-Val]

Some points:

1.Anything over two mana isn't worth playing in this deck. It's too slow, and you can get a better threat on the board with it.

2. Try not to cut creatures for spells; they weaken Curiosity, which is one of the strongest threats in the deck.

3. Lotus does NOT have a place in here. The simple reason is because of Null Rod. Not the obvious interaction, the one where you drop a lotus, throw down some threats and then a Null Rod, and the workshop player welds out the rod. That is a game loss right there. Thanks for playing.

[MooSE]

How many faerie conclave should be run in gay/r?  I have seen 2 before and also 3 on many occasions.  I only run 2, it's a nonbasic CIPT land that requires a large investment to run so it really only shines under standstill.  Also, how many islands?  I run 3 but i have seen as many as 5 and as little as 1.  I think 1 is dangerous because if they can destroy your only basic source of land they can really mess you up.  Maybe i'm just paranoid though.

[Tijnie]

1.Anything over two mana isn't worth playing in this deck. It's too slow, and you can get a better threat on the board with it.

Rack and Ruin gets played in almost any built and it stills costs 3 mana.

I just got a second place with my Gay/R. matchups:
Suicide B/R 2-0 win
Suicide mono 2-0 win
Workshop Slavery 2-1 win
Keeper 2-0 win
draw7.dec 2-1 Lost
Urphidian 2-0 win

And i played a 7th round because we were even and both wanted the mana drain

Trinisstax 2-1 Win

I played almost the same as PTW. Only I went 2 Voidmage's, 2 daze's and 2 Stifle's.. no further changes. Sideboard was like this:

3x Maze of Ith (poor today)
2x Sigil of Sleep (poor today)
2x BeB (nice)
2x Fire/Ice (ownage)
2x ReB (nice)
2x Rack and Ruin (never casted, didn;t draw)
1x Crash (secret tech, was nice)
1x Null Rod (important!!)

Crash was cool, I needed that mana right away and this was free. byebye Chalice for 2, hello cloud of faeries and null Rod.
I like this sideboard, though I might need that 3 R&R but the rest felt fine. Normally maze's and Sigils make me feel Fuzzy, I didn;t really needed them this day though, nice matchups =)

[nataz]

I run
2 islands,
4 volcs
4-5 fetches
1 LOA
2 conclaves
4 factories
4 wastes
1 strip

For a total of 22-23 lands

I like the two islands plus the full compliment of volcs for use of Daze and fetch consistency ( I hate having a fetch and nothing to get with it). I could drop to only one island, but that can be dangerous, and I certainly wouldn’t go above 2, 3 max. 5 is way to many.

I think one of this decks greatest assets is it’s SB options.  One of the best threads I ever read was one started by zoneseek back on TMD 1.1 on possible SB options in mono-blue fish. If I have time between today and tomorrow, I'll post my list of possible SB options, and what kind of meta-games I bring them in on. The list is pretty huge, and making a proper SB with this deck is often the factor between making top 8, and scrubbing out.

-Carter

[Tijnie]

I use the same mana-base with 5 fetchies. You forgat the mox I ques?

Anyway, the best thing about this deck is that it can run the way it does. Any deck with FoW, Null Rod and a draw-enige will be a good deck. Serious that Null Rods win you more game's then the rest of this deck. It's so cool all those though guys with fully (Beta) Powered decks playing for 5 years T1 or so. And then you walk in, with a "budget" deck and you can whoop their ass huge. That Null Rod shuts down like 10 cards at least in their deck probebly and they won't have to many options to stop you. At best they can counter back and if they fail.. the story will get a sad end for them.

the sideboard has alot of options.

Graveyard hate: Tormod's Crypt
Artifact Hate: Null Rod, Rack and Ruin, Goblin Vandal, Energy Flux, (Crash   ) are probebly you best shots. Maybe Hurky's Recall.
Agrro: Fire/Ice, Sigil of Sleep, Maze of Ith (Anything Else??) Firestorm??
Controll: Black Vise, ReB

And ofcourse, BeB and Arcane Lab. can take some spots too. (maybe even Rootwater Thief if you got a funny Meta) I could be missing some cards but these are the cards that will see the sideboard in most Meta's.

[Hi-Val]

Obviously I meant maindeck. The sideboard is for bringing in 3-cost cards like Energy Flux that read "I Win". Even in the heights of Long.dec, I never found the use for a fourth Null Rod. With combo as it is now, you'll be better served making that 4th one a REB.

The sideboard that I would run would be:

3 R&R or Energy Flux
2 Fire/Ice
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Sigil of Sleep
2 Metagame spots, likely BEBs

The correct number for Faerie Conclaves is two. Not three, not one, four is right out. The deck needs to get a second turn Null Rod every time, and really needs a basic island out the first turn to stifle fetchlands. Library is also a spot in contention. In a meta where you'll see a lot of Hulk, I can see running it. As it is though, I have found that it's better served as a basic island. You want to have that colored mana, and Fish wants to crap out threats, not hold them for more cards.

[yodoblec]

Against GAT or Hulk Smash you are mostly happy with a first turn conclave mostly because it has flying. That just kills GAT if you can chump or stop the tog for a little bit (beserk is a problem) that little land will always do you good. I currently like 3.

[Chaos Blade]

What do guys feel that is better in the sideboard for aggro, Sigil of Sleep or Sword Of Fire And Ice? Right now im saying Sword as it doesnt rely heavily on your Pingers plus you can muscle up.

[yodoblec]

Sigil of Sleep is way outdated. Sword of Fire and Ice is clunky and slow. I think the better choice would be Propaganda.

I was wondering if Forbid would be a possibility in this deck since it would fuel the Lavamancer. I doesn't seem good enough though at 3 mana which is pretty expensive for this deck.

[MooSE]

I disagree, Sigil of Sleep is very good aginst aggro still.  Most of your creatures have evasion, so you will be able to deal the damage in order to bounce one of their threats.  I would choose Sigil of Sleep over Sword of Fire and Ice.  Swords don't do so well with MD Null Rods, and they are 5 mana to cast and equip then 2 mana for every equip after the first.

Also, how many creatures should there be?  I run 16 personally, some builds only run 15 or 14 though.  It's that last creature...what used to be the voidmage slot that varies in number.  I only ask, because currently i run 3 island, and 4 goblin vandal.  I'm thinking of cutting 1 vandal and 1 island for 2 stifles.  My only worry is that then my curiousities won't be as potent, and i may not draw enough artifact hate over the course of the game.  With this cut, my creatures would go down to 15 and lands would go to 21 are these still safe numbers?

Also, does anyone know the list PTW used to win that tourney recently?  I would really like to see it.  It could serve as a good solid base to the deck.

[Jacob Orlove]

You don't really have to cut curiosity until you dip below 14 creatures. 4 Curiosities and 15 creatures has been fine for me in WTF.

PTW's list is in the tournament forum; one notable addition is Shaman MD and SB.

[MooSE]

k, thanks.  I also came to a small debate while building the deck.  If you (meaning anyone that plays gay/r) had to make a choice between 3 MD stifles or 3 MD fire/ices which one would you choose, or is that more of a metagame type question?

[yodoblec]

Defenitly the stifles, very good most of the time. I always like to deny fetches or wastelands or strips. Fire/Ice is only good vs. sligh and the like.

[MooSE]

Fire/Ice is only good vs. sligh and the like.

I disagree.  Fire/Ice is very good vs most any deck.  At worst it replaces itself and taps down an opponents permanent.  It can do direct damage, ping off problem creatures also.  I actually chose the Fire/Ices in the end because it's never a dead card.  Stifling an opponents fetches or wastes is good, very good but stifle can be a dead card alot of the time.  I'm not saying you're wrong in your choice, it's a good choice but i disagree that fire and ice is only good vs sligh and the like.  Honestly, i think it's another one of those metagame things, Fire/Ice for me can ping welders and Mox monkeys which are in abundance in my area.

[TheRock]

When I look at a Gay Red sideboard and I see all of those 1-ofs, I know who the deck belongs to.

Fire/Ice is great, but you really need the power of Stifle and Daze to assist your mana denial aspect.  Fish doesn't run good cards maindeck, it runs synergistic cards maindeck.  Fire/Ice is best suited to be removal, and we don't need a ton of it maindeck.

Stifle is a dead card against a bad deck.  Fetchlands and Wastelands are everywhere, and Stifle is so good against FCG and combo that "house" doesn't correctly describe it.

[nataz]

@ moose
The fire/ice vs. stifle is really a meta consideration, but in a fairly "normal" powered meta I would choose stifle over fire/ice. nailing fetches to the wall is some good, when your entire deck is based around the idea of mana denial.

I ran two stifle and an annul main deck for stokes tourney a while ago, and was really quite fine with it.

But I wanted to bring up the point that this deck usually has anywhere from 4-5 main deck spots open for "tec-y blue instants" depending on your meta. Fire/ice, stifle, Mis-D, annul, etc all fall into that category. None of them are really "wrong" choices they are metagame choices.

For those who were too lazy to search, he is PTW GPDC deck
: Comments are mine, and I have not confirmed any of this with PTW, these are just my opinions!:

4 grim lavamancer
4 cloud of faeries
4 spiketail hatchling

-notice the 4/4/4 config. In gay red you really have no other choice, please don’t cut these unless you have a really really good reason!

2 voidmage prodigy
-most controversial card in the deck, but it defiantly pulls it weight

1 gorilla shaman
-I'm assuming a meta-choice?

4 fow
-must have

1 misd
2 daze
1 stifle
-four meta-game blue instants (although i would be loath to cut daze altogether, its such a mind fuck)

4 standstill
4 curiosity
1 ancestral recall
1 time walk
3 null rod
-another set of must haves

4 mishra's factory
2 faerie conclave
-this is the standard

5  blue fetch
-grim food and red mana smoothing

4 volcanic islands
2 island
-you kind of need these

4 wasteland
1 stripmine
-5 more must have cards

1 mox sapphire
1 library of alexandria
-the only broken cards the deck can support!

sideboard
2 maze of ith-tog, TnT, mask, GAT and general fatties
3 rack and ruin-artifacts
1 energy flux-more artifact hate
1 null rod-this im surprised at, and I'm wondering if you would bring it in for the control slaver? Most other match-ups you really have better options to bring in...WS slaver is going with the 7 man plan, so its better to have things like R&R. any explanation?
1 firestorm-FCG and annoying small critter decks
2 fire/ice-welder BarBQ/ FCG, etc etc
1 blue elemental blast-WGD?
1 red elemental blast-tog?
1 pyroblast-also tog?
1 unsummon-dragon
1 stiffle-storm/combo/more land kill?

I'd just like to point out that all in all this isn’t as open as a deck as many people seem to believe.

really the only "free" spots are:
LOA or extra island
those 4-5 blue instant meta cards (please please include at least a couple of daze though!)
and possibly the voidmages

Its the SB that has a ton of variation, and really gives the deck a lot of flexibility. Also, a note on PTW's SB. I think it was him on another thread that said b/c fish has so much draw power over the course of the game that having one card was like having 2 or three.  

still working on that SB list,
its pretty big, hopefuly it will be done by later tonight

[MooSE]

I think it was him on another thread that said b/c fish has so much draw power over the course of the game that having one card was like having 2 or three.

This is a very good point, i never really thought about it like that.  I am so used to the rule of at least 3 or none that i forgot singles can be good in some decks.  Most budget decks need alot of any given card for consistency, gay/r is an exception.

Also, if you didn't, and it's not too much trouble i think it would be helpful to have the matchups SB cards are useful in on that list of SB cards.

[Tijnie]

@nataz: Omg that is like my decklist . Only I'm running 2 Stifle and No Mox-monkey.. though it could be a nice choice I've never tried it. Ik looks nice but it IS another RED spell (wich I'm trying to keep down in numbers) and it doesnt do anything more then Rod. So this is a 4th MD rod witch can kick... Not bad actually since it can screw welder by take out the mox in response. Maybe a Lone Fire/Ice is better in this slot. It can take out welder AND screw other creature's. The best part is that it's blue ofcourse  

The sideboard.. well we're very close. Only Unsummon just to screw dragon sounds CRAP to me, Take a 2nd BeB (or STifle). Both screw dragon AND can be nice in other matchups. beB vs Gobbo's and stuf. Stifle vs Draw7.dec or other funky combo   The Energy Flux looks a bit useless to me. 3 R&R, 4 Rods.. I don't like to pay for my own Rods. Maybe THIS can be your mox-monkey afterall..
Firestorm.. have you really been testing this or do you just put it on because PTW has 1 great experience with it.

Tijnie