[Deck Discussion] Fish - Gay/R build & choices

[cssamerican]

I am assuming the lone Gorilla Shaman is for Chalice of the Void. Which is a metagame decision since PTW knew half his team was playing 7/10 and assumed some people would show up with Workshop Slavery.

[TheRock]

I am assuming the lone Gorilla Shaman is for Chalice of the Void. Which is a metagame decision since PTW knew half his team was playing 7/10 and assumed some people would show up with Workshop Slavery.

I can also imagine that you would want to be taking away Hulk's Moxen and Crypt as soon as possible, which saw a ton of play as well.

Blue Elemental Blast hurts FCG as well, and FCG is a very tough matchup for Fish.  Having the extra push from Stifle and BEB can make that matchup much more breathable.

REB and Pyroblast are for any opponent that runs blue.  You will want the extra counters.

I don't really see Unsummon being that great though.  I can't see why this card would be better than Tormod's Crypt or Sigil of Sleep (depending on what you plan to use the Unsummon for).  Wouldn't the removal of Crypt be more versatile when you need something for Dragon and Hulk at the same time?  Wouldn't Sigil of Sleep be a more permanent source of removal for the deck just like Maze of Ith?  

Somebody might need to explain this choice to me a little bit.


nataz:  PTW did mention that statement that you made, you are right on the ball.

[wuaffiliate]

Fetchlands are VERY good, they feed lavamancer, and help with consistant red mana. you should run no less than 4 ever in this deck.

I've been less and less impressed with voidmage, shaman is a stronger threat right now, that cannot be argued. with slavers and tog everywhere shaman is just a better choice. voidmage is slow. slow is bad.

Stifle is so good, i would run 4 if i could but i like my lone misD right now.

SB:

Reb is a 3-4 of imo, its just so damn good right now. i run a 4th as pyroblast in case of the odd mage and just for kicks.

Beb this was my choice over fire/ice to deal with welder, its got a wider use in hitting bloodmoon, welder, opposing lavamancer, Reb. id rather deal with problem permanents than tap a land or kill a creature.

Crypt is just used because there really is nothing better for the slot. it works.

RnR better than flux, card advantage, it works well enough for its use.

my 4 aggro slots are 2 sigil and 2 SoFaI, sigil is just so good when it gets in play and active vs aggro and most people still dont figure fish using it. SoFaI is just so damn good, just read the damn thing i dont care if its 3cc its better than maze by far.

and the current list:

//NAME: FaggroStill
        4 Grim Lavamancer
        4 Cloud of Faeries
        4 Spiketail Hatchling
        3 Gorilla Shaman
        4 Force of Will
        1 Misdirection
        3 Stifle
        4 Standstill
        4 Curiosity
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Time Walk
        3 Null Rod
        4 Mishra's Factory
        2 Faerie Conclave
        1 Strip Mine
        4 Wasteland
        1 Library of Alexandria
        1 Mox Sapphire
        4 Volcanic Island
        2 Island
        1 Flooded Strand
        4 Polluted Delta
SB:  4 Red Elemental Blast
SB:  2 Blue Elemental Blast
SB:  3 Tormod's Crypt
SB:  2 Rack and Ruin
SB:  2 Sword of Fire and Ice
SB:  2 Sigil of Sleep

[mongrel12]

Having played this deck a fair amount i would say that the most number of monkeys you want to have is 2, and only if you have a VERY heavy slaver/7/10 meta.  i think more than 2 monkey+null rod is simply overkill. Frankly the biggest issue in running 3 (or even 2) is that without volcanic island they are simply dead cards, and with no basic mountains in the deck...
This deck is entirely based on synergy and in 'conventional' (sligh, etc, fcg) you will have 5-6 dead cards--a significant problem in already bad matchups.
That being said i would say that 1 mox monkey is the ideal number simply because it wastes slaver and 7/10. Although i have not tested it, one monkey in the board could be viable.
I was wondering if md fire ice is really viable, and whether LoA is really necessar (it just weakens your already TERRIBLE mana base)

[nataz]

@ the rock

The unsummon is great in dragon matches because they don’t see it coming. Stupid stack tricks means you win. Crypt on the table gives dragon time to deal with it. I played dragon for a while and can say that although a pain in the ass, crypt is certainly not the end of the world. It is MUCH easier to come back from a crypt then from a dragon gone bad.

not to mention unsummon is fun with decks that use unconventional ways to crap out fat men. Think of slaver, which often uses TKF to put a fatty in the yard vs fish, and then weld it into play. You respond by putting it back in their hand when the are taped out EOT. *evil grin* This works for all kinds of nasty big things like tog post pump, stupid juggies and broostar fat, TnT guys, etc. I think the unsummon, like a lot of many fish SB options is good because it has many very useful roles in different matches.

-

as for the monkey, eh, I think it was more of a meta-game singleton that helps to wreak slavery pre-board. The thing is pre-board you already nail them to the wall. 7/10 doesn’t seem much different. So I would only add a monkey if I was expecting lots and lots of welder decks, where you null rod doesn’t stop a mox from becoming a 7/10 land D fatty.

@mong

The maindeck fire and ice is certainly doable in the right meta. I played GayRed a while ago at a really scrubby venue, and knowing that I was going to have to face tons and tons of stupid small aggro I main decked two and never looked back. I could pick off small creatures 2 at a time, or ice early fatties, it was great. The question you have to ask is whether or not its worth it in your meta, not if its doable all the time.

as for the LOA, you will have to kill me and pry it out of my cold dead hand...or well, deck. standstill draw (aka stupid opponents) and cloud of faeries make sure you use Library way more then you should be allowed too, even early game. LOA card advantage flat out wins games,  and to me is worth butchering the base a little more. You wont catch me saying that I wouldn’t love to have another Island in the deck, but I just cant bring myself to take out the LOA. Cards drawn = soooo gooooood.

@wu

I will say that I love maze in this deck, but I have to admit that often times it is a crutch. SoFaI wouldn’t be anywhere near as good if it didn’t have pro-tog…but it does, so I guess I’ll go back to testing. The question I have for you is what do you bring it in on other then FCG and O-Stompy (I assume)? Pro tog is great, but I think I would rather have null rod, and I cringe using both at the same time (dead cards makes baby Jesus cry). Same with artifact aggro, again rather have null rods.  

and as a pet peeve of mine, on to a comment about standstill

Ok, I know it is situational draw that you do not get to control, but three cards is still three cards.

*Quick, all non-fish players put on earmuffs, I wouldn't want you all actually learning how to break standstill*

Yes, the proper (and annoying) play against standstill is to make sure that when you break it, you do it EOT on their turn, with something stupid and not counter worthy like brainstorm. yessssss, make the fish discard cards and just use the standstill as a kind of uber hand optimizer. Don’t let them draw onto an empty, or mostly empty hand, for no reason other then to break it. Then that IS card advantage. I cant tell you how many times I have played against opponents who break my standstill at very silly times.

*okay, earmuffs off*

Now, don’t get me wrong, standstill is a HUGE part of the deck, and often times you can keep your hand size down with you psudo spell (man lands, and strip effects) so your game keeps going while the other person stalls out and is forced to break. I’m just saying people should think before they break, and remember standstill is really in your hands.

-That is all-

-Carter

[TheRock]

@ the rock

The unsummon is great in dragon matches because they don’t see it coming. Stupid stack tricks means you win. Crypt on the table gives dragon time to deal with it. I played dragon for a while and can say that although a pain in the ass, crypt is certainly not the end of the world. It is MUCH easier to come back from a crypt then from a dragon gone bad.

not to mention unsummon is fun with decks that use unconventional ways to crap out fat men. Think of slaver, which often uses TKF to put a fatty in the yard vs fish, and then weld it into play. You respond by putting it back in their hand when the are taped out EOT. *evil grin* This works for all kinds of nasty big things like tog post pump, stupid juggies and broostar fat, TnT guys, etc. I think the unsummon, like a lot of many fish SB options is good because it has many very useful roles in different matches.

-

as for the monkey, eh, I think it was more of a meta-game singleton that helps to wreak slavery pre-board. The thing is pre-board you already nail them to the wall. 7/10 doesn’t seem much different. So I would only add a monkey if I was expecting lots and lots of welder decks, where you null rod doesn’t stop a mox from becoming a 7/10 land D fatty.

Your argument suggests that Unsummon is a cute trick.  I don't want to waste important and must-be solid SB slots on such tricks, and that's exactly what I was getting at.  

Any Dragon player is good enough to see Stifle coming.  How is Unsummon much different?

Any good Hulk player just walks right through Damping Matrix, Maze of Ith, Swords to Plowshares, etc, when they are ready.  How does Unsummon do any better?

A protected Sigil of Sleep is a never-ending Unsummon.  Why do we need a one-time spell when we can do it over and over again?

With Mana Crypt becoming the new thing, Shaman is a better card overall.  If you can't stop the Moxen and Crypt in Hulk and can't stop them from drawing cards, you get smashed.  Shaman isn't the best of answers but it is a help.  Don't mistake what I said earlier by believing that I implied that Shaman was only for Hulk.

[wuaffiliate]

playing 2 monkeys means i wont draw them early consistantly enough, playing 3 improves my chances, its a good threat that needs to be delt with asap unless they want to play slow, which is all right by me, thats my game plan, if they want to play by my game plan all the power to them. early monkey good, late monkey not as good. i also run 5 fetch so i have much less trouble than the average gayr build to get red mana.

i also find your argument that its dead without red mana pretty pointless, secondary colours are always dead if the mana isnt draw and this can happen to ANY deck. i also dont care if he is dead vs crappy decks such as sligh and sui, i should take them out anyhow, plus when hes a 3/3 pro red/blue, pings for 2, and draws me a card i dont complain.

LoA isnt a must, but it draws card, i liek drawing cards, and if it goes unanswered for long enough, well you know the deal, i hope.

fire/ice is a choice, but i perfer BeB, it deals with thing you cannot normally deal with, and you have grim and SoFaI to ping shit. the tempo from running 2 fire/ice would also be quite small.

maze is ok, but reb is better, i dont need sword vs tog it does little to nothing since most of my threats already have evasion vs tog (read: flying, direct damage). ostompy, madness, FCG and friends are hurt much more by sword than null rod, its for those types of matches.

all good players know how to minimise the advantage standstill gives their opponent anyhow, its kindof an obvious thing that everyone should know.

[yodoblec]

Fire/Ice is dying out because of tog. Goblin Vandal is a good choice to stop their crypt of moxen, even though shaman is used more often it can be too much mana vs. Slaver.

[MooSE]

I like vandal much better than Shaman.  Granted...Shaman doesn't need to attack.  It's 6 to 1, half dozen to the other.  Would say...a 2 to 1 ratio be good?  Or have some in the SB?  They both have their merits.

[mongrel12]

@nat: forgive me for my stupidity--LoA is just sick (although i find it a lot less sick in the absence of gush, which clearly cannot fit in this deck). also, it may not have been clear in my post but fire/ice is obviously a metagame card, i was speculating more (quite pointlessly, rather) about it as a 1-of that just hoses random aggro.

@wu

i also run 5 fetch so i have much less trouble than the average gayr build to get red mana

it would seem to be obvious that five fetches is the right number, as they fuel lavamancer, thin deck, etc.

[mox monkey is] a good threat that needs to be delt with asap unless they want to play slow

right. so what matchup are you talking about? granted, turn 1 monkey completely hoses slaver and 7/10, but generally null rod>monkey. it seems like in a lot of matchups, the monkey is a sub-par 1/1 for R that can't be pitched to force. Another reason not to run the monkey is the mirror: with the recent success of gay/r, more people will be picking it up, and the mirror (in my limited experience) comes down to hosing the other player's red mana as to make lavamancer inactive. And beating down with man-lands, wasting them, etc.

i also find your argument that its dead without red mana pretty pointless, secondary colours are always dead if the mana isnt draw and this can happen to ANY deck.

frankly, this is a somewhat invalid point, as you must take for granted the fact that fish has one-of, if not THE worst mana base in type one. running 10 colorless sources and 2 CPT lands in a deck with 22-24 mana=not so good for a mana base.

[Chaos Blade]

What Artifact removal creature you guys think is better? Goblin Vandals (which im leaning to) or Mox Monkey. The Monkey seems more mana dependant in my understanding.

[wuaffiliate]

you would be surprized as to how many people run less than 5 fetches in gayr.

im not concerned about the mirror at all, i have rebs and sofai to deal with them. running only 1 shaman really doesnt improve the match any.

the fact that fish has a solid yet easily disruptable mana base is overshadowed by how well it can disrupt the opponent's mana base to be honest.

im going to try playing with 2 shamen.

[MooSE]

What Artifact removal creature you guys think is better? Goblin Vandals (which im leaning to) or Mox Monkey. The Monkey seems more mana dependant in my understanding.

It really depends on what decks you play against.  Do you see more random moxes, sol rings, mana crypts etc.  Or do you have alot of stax, Mud, Slaver and other mono brown decks.  One thing that is cool about vandal though is it can kill creatures, where mox monkey cannot.

[wuaffiliate]

correction, it kills creatures vs complete retards who cant play worth shit.

firestorm is quite good vs a horrible matchup in FCG, its also a solid finisher at times.

[MooSE]

correction, it kills creatures vs complete retards who cant play worth shit.

What are they supposed to do if they only have 1 creature and you have 2 vandals on the board?  Or if they already attacked?  How about if you Ice their blocker?  It's not a matter of their playing skills, it's all about yours.

[TheRock]

Gorilla Shaman is a very useful card in Fish.  Just play with Oxidize in Worse Than Fish for a minute and you will instantly see the results.

Taking away Moxen is good stuff people.  Goblin Vandal is far too slow to do that.

Against Slaver, I would rather have Shaman maindeck.  I want to be all over their mana base right off the bat, not wait until turn 4 to have artifact removal that can, at best, only mirror what Null Rod does.  That is, if I'm still in the game at that point.

I'm still not cutting all of my Voidmages from my build.  I'm just running Shaman in my 15th creature slot from now on (keeping 2 Voidmages).


Running less than 5 fetchlands in Gay Red?  Sacrilege!  

[wuaffiliate]

correction, it kills creatures vs complete retards who cant play worth shit.

What are they supposed to do if they only have 1 creature and you have 2 vandals on the board?  Or if they already attacked?  How about if you Ice their blocker?  It's not a matter of their playing skills, it's all about yours.

what a useless argument lol.

you will be running 2 vandals at most. if you play vs tnt, mask, 7/10, slaver, you will likely not have more than 1 vandal out before they get more than 1 threat out. their threats out number vandals so the odds of them lettign a vandal go unblocked or stay on the table long is very little.

atleast shaman WILL hit their mana base and slow the production of any other threats they want to produce.

you will likely have maybe 2 fire/ice and 2 vandal right? so what are the odds of getting BOTH in hand at the same time when the opponent only has ONE threat out? thats pretty fucking low.

i run 14 threats now, 4 spikes, 4 cloud, 4 grim, 2 shamen and i added another daze/stifle.

[NoYuo]

I've played Gay-R in a few tournaments and have to agree it's a strong deck. What I like the MOST about the deck, is how easily it can adapt to each individual metagame. For example here is how I would run it for my meta.

4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Cloud of Faeries
3 Rootwater Thief
3 Spiketail Hatchling
2 Razorfin Hunter

4 Force of Will
4 Curiosity
4 Standstill
1 Misdirection
3 Stifle
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
3 Null Rod

1 Mox Sapphire
4 Flooded Strand
4 Volcanic Island
3 Island
4 Mishra Factory
2 Faerie Conclave
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Sideboard:
3 Sigil of Sleep
3 Gilded Drake
2 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Rack and Ruin
1 Energy Flux
1 Stifle
1 Null Rod
1 Misdirection

Rootwater Thief
In my opinion, can just wreck decks that have just a few win conditions. Often times I find that if I can swing 3 times against against keeper, it results in a scoop. I've tried Voidmage Prodigy, and dislike needing to keep UU open for counter ability. I'd much rather "go fishing", or swing with man-lands.

Razorfin Hunter
Brings the "pinger" count up to 6, wich helps deal with welders and the like. It also has good synnergy with the sideboard Sigil of Sleep.

Daze
Or lack there of. I've tested this card, and must have terrible luck with it, as I've only had it be usefull once.

Stifles 3 (+1 in side)
Fetch land use is at an all-time high where I play, and cancelling one out fits all too nicely with the 5 strip effects.

Gilded Drake
This guy almost always fits into my sideboard. It can steal critical creatures: welder, arrogant wurm, sundering titain, even psychotog if you're lucky. It is also possible to fit in the Sigil of Sleep (again coupled with the heavier "pinger" count) to recur Drake and steal several creaturs against heavy aggro decks.

[Chaos Blade]

The main debate is thatin my enviroment ( Hulk Control and tons and tons of Workshop decks) Im leaning towards Vandal as it doesnt take much mana to pump out. Also with an underpowered build I can run 3-4 Islands 4 fetchs  Volcanics,plus a Mountain. Shaman seems to mana hungry but I am currently really confused. Please help out a brother.

[Fuzzedball]

If by underpowered you mean without Volcanic Islands, I would say that would not be a good idea. The deck already skimps on mana, as has been stated many, many times before, and runnings without duals you would have to cut into the wastes or manlands to make room for additional red sources. If you are really set on building the deck without duals you could run Reefs/mountains, but you would have even more mana issues.

[Fuzzedball]

If by underpowered you mean without Volcanic Islands, I would say that would not be a good idea. The deck already skimps on mana, as has been stated many, many times before, and runnings without duals you would have to cut into the wastes or manlands to make room for additional red sources. If you are really set on building the deck without duals you could run Reefs/mountains, but you would have even more mana issues.

[wuaffiliate]

NoYuo, i really recomend you try Sword of Fire and Ice over some sigils,  i run 2 sword 1 sigil, sword is just better in many situation.

i also like razorfin, the 2cc pinger is quite good and i run him in a mroe aggro environment actually and he works very well. my build is more for a waterbury like environment. i really do suggest using another fetch in place of an island because you have a higher need for red and fetches make red better than islands do .

like i said this is my build for waterbury.

//NAME: Gayr
        4 Grim Lavamancer
        4 Cloud of Faeries
        4 Spiketail Hatchling
        2 Gorilla Shaman
        1 Magus of the Unseen
        4 Force of Will
        1 Misdirection
        2 Stifle
        1 Daze
        4 Standstill
        4 Curiosity
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Time Walk
        3 Null Rod
        4 Mishra's Factory
        2 Faerie Conclave
        1 Strip Mine
        4 Wasteland
        1 Library of Alexandria
        1 Mox Sapphire
        4 Volcanic Island
        2 Island
        1 Flooded Strand
        4 Polluted Delta
SB:  3 Red Elemental Blast
SB:  3 Rack and Ruin
SB:  2 Tormod's Crypt
SB:  2 Blue Elemental Blast
SB:  2 Sword of Fire and Ice
SB:  1 Sigil of Sleep
SB:  1 Stifle
SB:  1 Earthquake (trying it as a finnisher vs control, and to help deal with FCG, 3cc should wreck their board)

[Covetous]

Where does Crucible fit into this whole plan?  Is it good enough to MD, considering the dirty things you can do with it?  If so, how many should you MD, one or two?  What should come out to put the CoW in?  Should it be SB'ed instead, or not at all?  It seems to me that this card can be ridiculously powerful in your favor, or it can hose you horribly when an opponent resolves one.  So, should you run it to not only increase your own sickness, but also to combat the potential threat of having the CoW own you?  But, that also brings up the question of whether a 3cc spell can fit into fish's MD.  I don't think cards like Suq'ata should be run in Fish due to the 3cc for a card that is good in the mirror and few other relevant matches.  

A couple of other comments:
Who wouldn't run LoA in Fish?  It's restricted for a reason, you know...

If you need to MD Fire/Ice as more than a random one-of (and I still don't think there's room for that), then play something other than Fish because your meta is too aggro for Fish to be a good choice.

Firestorm in the board is Tech...with the cards you can draw from Standstill/Curiosity, it can break games wide open vs. some of those aggro matchups that are not normally in Fish's favor.

Mox Monkey sometimes just wins games.  However, in many cases, those games are vs. decks that you already do well against, like slaver, etc.  So, having the random one (or possibly two in an artifact-heavy meta) for occasional ownage is good, but more than 2 is excessive.  Goblin Vandal/Tinkerer is pretty cool, but generally unnecessary.  What do you expect to kill that monkey cannot and null rod won't nullily?  Trinisphere?  Well, that's about it and countering or R & R-ing a 3sphere is your main gameplan anyway.  Think about it--how does vandal/tinkerer shore up your bad matchups?  They are good vs. decks you should already own anyway.

Please don't cut Grim--he's about 50% of the reason this deck exists.  The other 50% is effective artifact and creature removal in the form of mox monkey/R&R and fire/ice.

Tormod's Crypt seems to work at odds with null rod--they are good in the same matches and don't work together.  Thus, alternatives to deal with dragon such as stifle, BEB or unsummon are probably better.  The fact that those three other cards can be useful in other matchups means that they are probably better choices.  

The good thing about a fish SB is that you can run 1 or 2-ofs that are similar, on the idea that some of them are better in some matchups and others are good in other matchups, but many of them accomplish the same purpose.  For example, fire/ice and firestorm both are good vs. aggro.  However, fire/ice is also good in matchups other than aggro, such as where welders or large fat things might ruin your day.  So, in some cases you bring in all three, while in others you might only bring in the f/i.  Same goes with R&R and EFlux--EFlux shines vs. prison, while R&R has many uses.  The same goes with stifle/unsummon/BEB vs. dragon--they all can smack the dragon up but have additional uses in other matches.

Anyway that's enough of my random musing--but if someone could enlighten me about the Crucible issue I would appreciate it.

[Mr Pink]

I was going to start a new thread on u/r fish, but this since this thread is already up I'll reply here. First, my decklist.

R Library of Alexandria
R Mox Sapphire
4 Volcanic Island
3 Island
4 Mishras Factory
2 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

4 Grim Lavamancer
3 Flying Men
3 Cloud of Faeries
4 Spiketale Hatchling  
1 Gorilla Shaman

4 Curiosity
4 Standstill
R Ancestral Recall

R Timewalk
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Null Rod
2 Stifle

4 Force of Will
2 Daze
 
SIDEBOARD

2 Maze of Ith
1 Crucible of the Worlds
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Energy Flux
3 Fire/Ice
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Stifle

My build differs from the original versions a bit, but all changes have been made as a result of a lot of playtesting in tournments and with friends. I cut the conclaves completely because they just weren't getting it done for me. Most of the time they set me back a turn because of the comes into play tapped ability. When I had it in play they seemed to be just too mana intensive to be effective. I put in more fetchlands in to fuel my lavamancer, and get me the colored mana I need. Other changes include the 1 md Crucible of Worlds, but I'll talk about that a bit later. I also cut a Cloud of Faeires and 2 Voidmage Prodigies for 3 flying men, which has been working pretty well for me. (I recieved this suggestion from David Ochoa btw) Not only are they still pitchable to Force of Will, they can come out turn one, and begin the beats turn 2 (hopefully with a curiosity). Other than those changes the deck is pretty standard. Now, to get to some specific points from covetous;

Where does Crucible fit into this whole plan? Is it good enough to MD, considering the dirty things you can do with it? If so, how many should you MD, one or two?What should come out to put the CoW in? Should it be SB'ed instead, or not at all?

As reflected in the decklist I have tried one Crucible in the main, and it has done wonders. It has won some games for me all by itself, and definately warrants at least 1 md slot, if not 2. In my build, I simply cannot cut anything else, but if I could it would be for another Crucible most likely. Having 1 md and 1 sb has been fine for me. it usually goes in for the mirror, and versus other slower decks, ie. tog. It isn't too good versus fast decks because fish isn't fast enough to use it effectively.

Who wouldn't run LoA in Fish? It's restricted for a reason, you know...

Haha, maybe he just doesn't have one?

If you need to MD Fire/Ice as more than a random one-of (and I still don't think there's room for that), then play something other than Fish because your meta is too aggro for Fish to be a good choice.

Yea, I totally agree with you here, actually the one md Fire/Ice is the card I cut for crucible. however, I do believe it merits a sb slot, because it is absolut house in the mirror, and it's effective in the FCG matchup as well.

Well that's all for now, I'll check back later to see what's new in this thread.

[BreathWeapon]

When did Voidmage fall out of favor in U/r Fish? I play WTF/r and the single card I miss from U/r Fish more than anything else is Voidmage. Hard Counters are broken.

Also, is the RU Merfolk Pinger better than Suqata Firewalker? A Pro Red Pinger is the bomb in the Fish Mirror.

[nataz]

I dont think that I would ever play Gay/R without the Kai's

Its more then just a hard counter, its a super-hard counter (as in the only thing an opponent can do is stifle!), AND it beats.

As for taking out the conclaves, I'd suggest testing more. Man-lands are one of the reasons why this deck exists. Standstill needs the manlands to work.

[Mr Pink]

I dont think that I would ever play Gay/R without the Kai's

As for taking out the conclaves, I'd suggest testing more. Man-lands are one of the reasons why this deck exists. Standstill needs the manlands to work.

I don't know about that. Call me ignorant, but I believe man lands aren't necessary they have good synergy with standstill, but usually I only lay down a standstill when I've got a lavamancer on my side, or enough beats. Conclaves are good in the deck, yes, I do not deny it, They just seem to be more of a hassel than not. Hmmm, I just never liked Kai. I tried him but it just didn't work out. I may still put him in, but as of now, he's out.

[Cross]

I'm with nataz on this one, the faster you have a standstill lock going, even if its just supported by a few beats, the better.

I also have a hard time cutting the voidmage completely, hes really good. My only problem iwth him is that he is so mana intensive and they are so many other more inexpensive options that one has when playing the deck. Personally I cut one to make space for echoing truth, which is something I am trying to champion as much as possible because it has so many answers that u/r fish normally doesnt have.

@ covetous I would love to find a place for crucible because its so good against literlally any deck but combo, and as a one of, against combo it can be sided out and you're probably not going to see it. My major issue is that fish's mainboard is so tight that it's really difficult to sideboard with the deck as is. Making space for new mainboard spots is near impossible.

@Mr Pink you cut ancestral and timewalk????????? I can see timewalk almost, but ancestral is so amazingly good that it would be ridiculous to cut such a card.  Or do you just have 59 cards mainboard and forgot to add that? misdirection is also an interesting card to cut, even as a 1-of it has its merits. Ancestral and mindtwist are big things to misdirect but theres little situational things that are easily thrown around, it even works as a counter against your opponents counters.

[Mr Pink]

@Mr Pink you cut ancestral and timewalk????????? I can see timewalk almost, but ancestral is so amazingly good that it would be ridiculous to cut such a card.  Or do you just have 59 cards mainboard and forgot to add that? misdirection is also an interesting card to cut, even as a 1-of it has its merits. Ancestral and mindtwist are big things to misdirect but theres little situational things that are easily thrown around, it even works as a counter against your opponents counters.

LOL, Yea I forgot to write that in. I edited the list to reflect the changes and yes my decklist is 61 cards. On MisD, The only reason I cut it is because there aren't too many targets nowadays especially where I play. Mindtwist is in tog and 4cc, but that's already a good matchup. Ancestral is a nice target, but I don't know if that merits the inclusion. I may cut it for something but the decklist is sort of tight at the moment. One idea I had was cutting one daze and making it a one of. I know this may sound like a bad idea but all the good players I play assume that daze is in my deck and that I have it in my hand so they play around it. Most of the time I don't even have it! It's just a thought, but suggestions are welcome.

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