[Discussion] Thoughts about Workshop Slaver

[slicer]

I just played in Dülmen Workshop Slaver and I did quite well.
For reference here is what I played :

// Mana //  -  27
4 Volcanic Island
2 Shivan Reef
2 Polluted Delta
1 Island
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Tolarien Acadamy
4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
3 Gilded Lotus

// Draw //  - 14
4 Brainstorm
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Memory Jar
1 Tinker
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Timetwister
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

// Protection // - 8
4 Force of Will
4 Chalice of the Void

// Prison Components // - 7
3 Mindslaver
4 Goblin Welder

// Beatdown / Utility // - 4
1 Memnarch
2 Pentavus
1 Platinum Angel

SB:
3 Trinisphere
2 Blood Moon
3 Rack and Ruin
2 Gorilla Shaman
2 Triskelion
1 Platinum Angel
2 Red Elemental Blast      

Short report :

1.Round - Oshawa Stompy
Game 1 : Despite a Turn 2 Null Rod I smash face with my Platinum Angel
Game 2 : Chalice for 2 is so good. Infinite mindslaving wins shortly after the game.
1-0,  2-0

2. Round - BUG Reanimator
Game 1 : 1 First Turn Mindslaver and 2. Turn activation is some good.
Game 2 : He plays Akroma and brings me down to 3 live. Then Memnarch arrives and invites Akroma to beat her former Master to death.
2-0, 4-0

3. Round - my friend playing Workshop Slaver  
We draw and go for lunch.
2-0-1, 5-1

4. Round - BUG Grow
Game 1 : I have an average start with chalice 2. He goes crazy with Ancest, Deed and Will - you can't beat God hands
Game 2 : I have 1. Turn Gilded Lotus and play Blood Moon. But he has all the Moxen he needs. I still feel confident when he plays Ground Seal and Damping Matrix  because I sided out all my Welders. Then again he goes crazy with Lotus, Ancest, Walk, Will - You cant beat God Hands.
2-1-1, 5-3

5. Round - Control Slaver
Game 1 : I mulligan an hold a hand with 4 lands Chalice and Brainstorm. The brainstoms shows .... 3 more lands. After Chalice for 2 which is countered I didn't do much more.
Game 2 : I slave him an Turn 4. He just played a Welder and I recur my Slaver Turn by Turn with his Welder. - thanks (I sided out my Welders)
Game 3 : I play chalice for 2 and 3. Later I smash face with Triskelion and Pentavus.
3-1-1, 7-4

6. Round - Keeper
Game 1  : I play threat after threat - he counters some and removes the others. Then I can resolve Memnarch and go in Beatdown/Stealing Modus.
Game 2 : He plays 2. Turn Exalted Angel. I go down to 3 live, then I resolve Platinum. He continues to beat me but can't get rid of my Angel. Then I resolve Blood Moon, Chalice for 0 and Chalice for 3 wich is game, because he can't remove my Angel anymore.
4-1-1, 9-4

7. Round - UR-Phid
Game 1 : I resolve Chalice for 2 but he has Gorilla Shaman. Then I find Pentavus and start beating him. Later I resolve Mindslaver and I am able to screw him while Pentavus is still attacking .
Game 2 : I He has 2 Ophidian and again this pesky Gorilla Shaman, but I have lots of expensive artefacts and 2 Welder. He fires my Welders and destroys all of my artefacts except a Gilded Lotus. I topdeck another Welder and use a saved Mox in my hand to turn it into a Slaver. In his Slaver Turn I use the Ophidians to find Ancestral ......  he scoops.
5-1-1, 11-4

MVP's of the Day:
Chalice 2
Platinum Angel
Memory Jar


thoughts :

The Manabasis is pretty strong, although I really missed the 4. Gilded Lotus. We tested  a Version with 4 bevor the Tournament,  cutting Time Walk, but we decided to stick with the Walk because of the already low count of blue cards to reliably use Force of Will. Now I will probably cut the 3. Mindslaver to include the Lotus.
I feel that this Deck should abuse Workshop as much as it can. Therefore we included 4 maindeck critter to play more often the beatdown role. So either you can play Chalice for 2 or you play Mindslaver or you play a Fattie or you play a Draw7. That puts alot of pressure on your oppenent in the first 3 turns. Often this onlaught he can't handle.
The lonely Island was gold after boarding Blood Moons or against heavy landestruction.

I understand that in field of heavy control decks some of the more controlish cards like Fact or Fiction or Library of Alexandria are superior, but in a broad field it is better to play more threats. I always wanted to do something broken in the first turns and not sit down and draw cards from LoA. Fact just costs 4 Mana wich is pretty bad without Gilded Lotus.

I often read the argument that workshop slaver dies to Nullrod. I did not make the experience. First you still have Chalice. If not, just play a big Guy smash face with him. I didn't even side in my artefact removal against e.g. Oshawa Stompy. Just bring all your fatties let them do the dirty work for you.
Btw -  the Platinum Angel won me 3 games where my life was below 0.
Maybe it is just me, but I see Workshop Slaver as a Aggro Control Deck wich can go Combo. But the Aggro strategie is far more often used.

Some people say that they had to mulligan very often. - again not in my experience. Because of the Brainstorms you smooth your draws and the higher amount of artefacts in our build guarantee the use of all the (workshop) mana you pack.

Regarding the matchup Control Slaver vs. Workshop Slaver :
I cant see why it should be in favour of Control Slaver.
Chalice for 2 hurts them pretty much. They can't counter all your early threats. ( they have to counter or remove Gilded Lotus, Chalice, Welder, and your big Guys). You draw as much cards as they, but you can utilize them earlier, which is a big advantage. After Boarding you bring in more Fatties, Shamans and REBs. I'm always pretty confident to win the matchup.

Future:
I can see dropping 1 Pentavus in favor of a Sundering Titan, although that means altering the Manabasis a bit.
In the Sideboard I will add BEB because of Rack and Ruin and Gorilla Shaman and a Trisklion might become a Duplicant.
Trinisphere will go out, if 2-Land-Belcher dies out in Dülmen.

opinions ?

[Blackest Lotus]

I'm playing a similar build, with these changes:

-1 Island
-2 Polluted Delta
-1 Pentavus

+1 Library of Alexandria
+1 Windfall
+2 shivan Reef

My reasoning for them:

Library is so good. I doubt I would ever cut it. If it is drawn in the opening hand, I play draw go for awhile and just run over decks with the vicious card advantage I achieve. It can be activated in the late game via Draw Sevens.It  sucks up a Waste so thats one less for your Workshops.
 Without it you lose a great source of card advantage, which is traded off for protection from Bloodmoon and to a lesser extent, Wastelands.

I have no random Island so the Deltas would be a waste. More importantly though, is that Stifle is a bitch.  Thirdly, they are not "true" mana sources, and the decks biggest flaw is it's sometimes shaky manabase. I really feel the Shivan Reefs are mandatory. Take the pain, play the Reefs.

Windfall is probably the most iffy inclusion though, it has performed decently thus far, and is a nice way to get stuff in your graveyard, but that hasn't been a problem thus far.  In all seriousness the reason I included it was that is is another Draw-7. If I were to replace it with a spell, it would be Fact or Fiction. If I was going to replace it with a FATTY, it wouldnt be Pentavus. The one Pentavus has been working out well, two are unnecessary though.  Since I love versatility, I would opt for Bosh, Iron Golem. What a freakin wrecking ball.

Random thoughts:

I agree with you on the manabase issue, it is stronger than it looks, Brainstorm is your friend. Its been good with the 4 Volcanic, 4 Reef, configuration.

Mulliganing also has not been a big problem for me as well. The deck has delivered. Really I think people just arent shuffling well enough. Remember, shuffling IS tech.

This deck definitely does not "just scoop" to Null Rod. "The Big Man Plan" popularized by Smennen is a very effective strategy against Null Rod.

The way I view Workshop Slaver is draw dependent. With some hands, its a Prison deck with Slaver recursion, other times its Aggro with a second turn Platinum Angel, and so on. That is really the decks major strength, its amazing flexibility.

I do not know what the future holds for the deck, I have not played with it long enough yet to see the possibilities for improvement. I seriously think Bosh would rule in this deck and I'm going to test him out sometime soon.

[slicer]

You play pretty much the build of Smmenen wich is very good if your Meta shows lots of control. But what I'm trying to say is, that in Metagames with many different Decks ( control, aggro, prison, combo) a different Build is needed.
IMO we should increase the number of threats. If you do this, the playstyle of the whole deck changes as well. You play the aggro role more often. I'm not considering Slavery as a control deck  (at least not my build). Yes, it has control elements, but key play after chalice for 2 is to resolve a critter. The time other Decks need to cope with it you can use to set up Slaver and develope your Manabasis further.
Thats the reason I dont play LoA. In the first turns I try to resolve a threat and after a Draw7 its just not needed or rather you need the mana to cast your new cards. Your argument about sucking up a Wasteland is pretty good, although. But a lot of players try to cut you of your blue/red sources anyway, leaving you your workshops. That means, you still can cast your big guys. You are just not so dependent on the colored manas.

Many people pack artefact hate maindeck. (Null Rod, Damping Matrix). So for me it is most important to be able to play the "Big Man" strategy in the 1 game already.

I'm playing only 2 fetchies, so manasrewing trough stifle shouldn't happen very often. If people stifle my fetchlands so later they can't stifle my slaver or welder. I think thats a waste.

Bosh sounds pretty good to me, especially with 4 Gilded Lotus. I will test it over the second pentavus. ( but beware of stilfe  :lol:  )

I really feel the future of Workshop Slaver lies in a mixture of Triple S 7/10 Deck and the original Smmenen/Toad Build.


@mods
I you feel this threat is redundant with the one from The Hamburgler, than feel free to merge it. thanks.

[InsaneScrub]

While I feel Slaver is a very viable deck, I would even dare say tier 1, I still feel it needs to adress the mana flood issue it suffers sometimes.  Maybe I am alone in this matter, but I have had it happen enough to me that I think the deck needs something done about it.

[Blackest Lotus]

You play pretty much the build of Smmenen wich is very good if your Meta shows lots of control. But what I'm trying to say is, that in Metagames with many different Decks ( control, aggro, prison, combo) a different Build is needed.

I agree with you on this, obviously one can not take a net deck to a completely different metagame than what the deck was designed to comepte in.

IMO we should increase the number of threats. If you do this, the playstyle of the whole deck changes as well. You play the aggro role more often. I'm not considering Slavery as a control deck  (at least not my build). Yes, it has control elements, but key play after chalice for 2 is to resolve a critter. The time other Decks need to cope with it you can use to set up Slaver and develope your Manabasis further.
Thats the reason I dont play LoA. In the first turns I try to resolve a threat and after a Draw7 its just not needed or rather you need the mana to cast your new cards. Your argument about sucking up a Wasteland is pretty good, although. But a lot of players try to cut you of your blue/red sources anyway, leaving you your workshops. That means, you still can cast your big guys. You are just not so dependent on the colored manas.

I think it would be a good idea to add more FATTIES, but I would not go above four total maindeck. Any more and you would run the risk of them clogging up your hands, and slowing you down in matchups where speed is essential, like against combo.
Again, I  usually go for the FATTY after I Chalice.
What I am saying is that an active Library helps you set up your mana base AND Slaver activations. The really great thing about this deck is that it can ignore your opponent, go ahead cast your Wild Mongrel, whatever, Psycha- what now? Thats a threat? All the while you are using your life as a buffer and drawing cards off LoA. True, sometimes you want to just slam out a FATTY and protect the hell out of it, somerimes thats the best play. Other times its better to slow play it and then explode in one turn, and overwhelming your opponent. LoA helps you accomplish this, I have probably  won half my games that way. You would trade free card advantage for some minimal protection from Wastes and B2B and Moon? But the thing is, you won't ever Fetch your lone Island soon enough for it to make a difference, due to our good friend Stifle. An Island is not a suitable replacement for Library of ALexandria. LoA is not a metagame choice.

Many people pack artefact hate maindeck. (Null Rod, Damping Matrix). So for me it is most important to be able to play the "Big Man" strategy in the 1 game already.

Again, I also believe this is important. How many is up for debate.

I'm playing only 2 fetchies, so manasrewing trough stifle shouldn't happen very often. If people stifle my fetchlands so later they can't stifle my slaver or welder. I think thats a waste.

I think any good player will always Stilfe your Fetches before a Slaver activation because waiting to Stifle a slaver is also waiting to be Pwned by Memnarch. You said it yourself, many players will try and cut you off from your Blue and Red sources. The loss of tempo from that play has opted me to stay away from Fetches.

The biggest problem with this deck is what I like to call the "Madness Syndrome" It can get a pools full of mana, but its not always of the right color. This happened to U/G Madness often in Type 2; when the only Blue and Green producing land was City of(Br)Ass Sometimes you get a hand with a Shop and a Mox but blue spells, and vice versa. Running actual Blue and Red sources help aleviate this problem.

Bosh sounds pretty good to me, especially with 4 Gilded Lotus. I will test it over the second pentavus. ( but beware of stilfe  :lol:  )

Stifle? By the time you get out Bosh, Face Smasher, your opponent better hope to god that they have something better than that against a 6/7 trampling beater.

I really feel the future of Workshop Slaver lies in a mixture of Triple S 7/10 Deck and the original Smmenen/Toad Build.

 I am not so sure, the decks appear to be fundamentally different, 7/10 seems more singleminded in its apporoach to winning, Workshop Slavery, however, is nothing but flexible.

The only changes I have made, thus far, have been:
-1 Windfall
+1 Fact or Fiction

[jazzykat]

While I feel Slaver is a very viable deck, I would even dare say tier 1, I still feel it needs to adress the mana flood issue it suffers sometimes.  Maybe I am alone in this matter, but I have had it happen enough to me that I think the deck needs something done about it.

In a similar thought: I have experimented with cutting a land from control slaver to add the fourth brainstorm.

In this build I suggest mixing fetches and real lands until you have enough mana. I am not sure what that would be as I don't know much about the workshop version.

Just a thought though: with all of the mox monkeys running around it may be wise to have alittle extra land.

[cssamerican]

Stifle makes fetchlands terrible in Workshop Slavery; this becomes glaringly obvious in matches against Fish. If your first color land drop is a fetchland and that fetchland gets stifled you have not only lost tempo, but in most cases you have lost the ability to regain that tempo. Since the deck only has eight color producing lands you cannot afford to lose one of them with out so much as a chance to cast a draw spell or a Goblin Welder. It also gives decks like Fish the ability to aim their Wastelands at your Workshops while still attacking your color producing lands. And I know some people say that they will save their Stifles for Mindslaver, but this is absolutely incorrect. They have Null Rod to deal with Mindslaver, not to mention, if they are waiting for you to play Mindslaver then they are waiting for you to play Penatvus. Not exactly a great strategy on their part.

Unlike most people that I have talked to, I have been experimenting with replacing Brainstorm with Impulse. The reason is since fetchlands are not the way to go and the deck can easily produce the additional Impulse requires; Impulse can provide the same ability in smoothing out the deck and still help me dig for what I need. For example, say you have no draw cards other than Brainstorm/Impulse in your opening hand. Then lets say the sixth card in your library is your first real draw card and it is a Thirst for Knowledge. If your going second and play Brainstorm as your opening play it will still take five more turns to get the Thirst for Knowledge, where as Impulse would allow you to grab it turn two. That is a huge difference in my opinion, and so far in my testing it is proving itself to be superior to Brainstorm in almost every circumstance.
Edited: (Before everyone flames me, yes I know that it interfers with a CotV set at 2, but I have played CotV at 1 and 3 even though it affected me. So just because you might put a CotV at 2 doesn't mean we shouldn't look at spells in that casting cost if they make the deck more consistant. You also have to realize that CotV will not always be in your opening hand, it will not always resolve, and if you are casting it for two I am sure it will affect them more than it would you anyway, that is unless you are playing if for 2 without ever thinking every game.)

Library of Alexandria is a great card, if you can’t see that I truly believe you are probably playing the deck incorrectly. Unlike past prison deck Slavery can wait a couple of turns; there is no need to drop every permanent you have in your hand into play turn 1. You can use your life total as a buffer to gain cards the first couple of turns if you have an active LoA, and then use the additional cards to insure your victory. If you look at the facts, this strategy actually speeds up the deck. For instance, If Mindslaver is the tenth card from the top of your library at the start of the game and an active Mindslaver will win the game. For simplicities sake you have no other drawing card, but LoA and you are going second you will draw the Mindslaver turn five, if that Library of Alexandria were an Ancient Tomb you would have to wait until turn ten, in which case you might have already lost the game. Now even if you had draw cards in hand the LoA still ensures that you will reach that Mindslaver faster in most cases than the Ancient Tomb would allow you too.