[Discussion] Replacing the AK engine in Hulk with TFK

[Jhaggs]

I would first like to preface this post by acknowledging a post started by Ultima in which this idea was first presented to me:

http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=16511

It seems as if Ultima, Dave Hernandez, and others were the first to pioneer the idea of utilizing Thirst For Knowledge in GAT builds. Props. I must admit I think it’s a pretty great addition to that deck. For this thread, I would like to explore the possibilities of Thirst For Knowledge inside Hulk. Can Thirst For Knowledge (TFK) replace the Intuition/Accumulated Knowledge draw engine to enable Hulk in combo-ing out faster? The AK engine: 4 Accumulated Knowledge 2 Intuition 2 Deep Analysis The TFK engine: 4 Thirst For Knowledge 1 Sol Ring 1 Mana Vault 2 Deep Analysis Here are some thoughts from Ultima and Dave on their experiences with

TFK inside GAT Ultima Writes:
 

Regarding draw engines, thirst is what you want, trust me. As I have said many times before, GAT cannot effectively beat Hulk by playing AKs. GAT has to be aggressive in all its aspects, threats and draw. Thirst draws cards now; ak takes time outside of intuition. FOF is a great card advantage card but thirst makes me play another DA for their synergy with each other. FOF I see as more a SB card for a control meta and I feel its inability to be pitched sometimes makes it too expensive.

HiVal Writes:

And Thirst For Knowledge/Deep Anal is so good I will never look at AKs again for GAT. To make full use of them though, you really do need Psychatogs to make use of the juicy graveyard.

Dave Hernandez writes:

As for Thirst's, they are surprisingly good! You can rifle through your deck quickly, get cards you need, and then fill the graveyard for the Tog and YawgWill.

The ability to rifle through the deck and get what I need at instant speed (while pumping Dryad's) makes them worthwhile for me. I almost look at it as a mini Fact or Fiction. When you FoF, you're going to throw cards away, but I never hear anyone complain about that because you get what you need NOW.

Arguments against the TFK tech in GAT can be shown through Grand Inquisitor’s remarks:

As for Thirst for Knowledge, the card has actually been pretty average for me. Sometimes its ok, but sometimes its down-right lousy. Ultima, you described AK as an expensive cantrip; Thirst fits that description even better in my opinion. Dropping artifacts has no synergy with the deck, and their are only two other cards in the deck you may want to discard.

So far I haven't been convinced. I also play in a control-heavy metagame, and LoA is awesome, even for an aggressive deck like GAT. The only reason why I can see it being weak is because you're throwing your hand away to Thirst, which I also think needs to go (or # of DA needs to increase) if this deck is to evolve

I realize that these comments were made in the context of a completely different deck, however I strongly feel that this debate can be carried over into a discussion of a "potential" new engine for Hulk. The typical AK engine is obviously successful but in my recent testing I think that the addition of TFK can not only be made more efficient inside Hulk than GAT but it can also garner necessary cards into your hand much faster.

Efficiency
On average, GAT runs around 5 artifacts (6 if you include Mox Ruby). Hulk on the other hand runs 7 artifacts and 2 Deep Analysis. Plus with this new engine, you can tack on Sol Ring and Mana Vault, which brings your total to 11 cards that you can potentially discard to TFK. (*Note* This number in practical purposes is 10 because if have never discarded Black Lotus to a TFK effect.) Recent GAT builds have included 1 DA bringing their potential discard total to 6. Even still, Hulk can include more cards that can be used to maximize TFK draw capabilities.

I am currently running with Sol Ring and Mana Vault for two reasons.  They are artifacts and Mana Producers that can help alleviate with the mana curve.  In my initial testing I wasn't using the DA's.  Instead I opted for Fact or Fiction and Gush.  I chose these cards because I felt that with Ring and Vault the FOF would be easier to cast and 1 DA seemed much more random than 1 Gush.  I have since cut these cards and am now MDing 2 DA'a due to the synergy that DA has with TFK.


Card Advantage
 Hulk is a combo deck. I feel that the quickest route is the best route for a combo deck to operate under. Not only is Hulk great at obtaining its needed cards quickly it also packs a nice control punch. The best of both worlds. I feel the TFK digs for these "needed" cards at a higher rate. Having 9 blue spells that allow you to draw into 3 cards is an awesome ability worthy of debating. TFK does increase the mana curve somewhat; I think this can be negligible with the addition of two additional artifact accelerators (Ring & Vault). Further, with cards like Trinisphere that even out the casting cost of everything under 3cc, TFK can be a great equalizer.  TFK does have some inherent risk with the discarding but with a higher list of cards that you have available to discard you can dig for your "business" spells at a great rate.  Plus being able to obtain Yawg's Will with greater ease knowing that your moxen can come back into play when you need to "just win" is a nice security blanket.

Here are some thoughts on some of my recent playtesting that have had a positive reflection on the TFK engine. First, using brainstorm to dig through the deck is a great way to setup a TFK. Second, a resolved Tormand's Crypt can at times cripple the AK engine. TFK in this situation can draw into more cards right away and it can also rebuild the graveyard for Tog to combo out. Third, a resolved Null Rod, a resolved Shaman, or a resolved Trinisphere can often make Moxen or other artifact accelerators "dead" in your hand. TFK is a great way to give these cards an additional benefit as they can serve as catalysts for the TFK discard effect. Currently, this third reason has been a driving force for me to shy away from the AK engine and going with the TFK engine.

I would like to get some feedback on this idea for an upcoming tournament that I am going to be playing in.  Is this a practical new engine?  Or is the AK engine a much better option?

[eddavatar]

Why fix something if something's not....grr....malfunctioning?

If you think Thirst interacts well with deep anal, look at intuition/AK/Deep Anal.

More, Hulk and GAT operate on different principles. Hulk wants card in hand since drawing cards is hulk's win condition. GAT on the other hand put a lot more emphasis on growing the dryad. Thirst at a lot of times is just dead weight if you have to discard 2 while being mana light.

[Machinus]

Intuition interacts far more favorably with deep anal than tfk does. With tfk, you have to discard two cards, meaning you have just spent 3 mana to replace one card. Given, you dig three deep, but even if you have the DA in hand, you are still dropping another card with it. This is really too expensive for this kind of effect. Intuition gives consistent draw power, allowing you to choose between da and ak and taking advantage of whatever position the opponent is in. It is therefore more reliable as an engine unless you are playing slavery, and can act as one of the better tutors blue has if its really necessary.

[monstre]

I would just like to point out that Ultima is no longer using thirst for knowledge in his latest GAT incarnation (see this thread).
What that says about thirst in hulk, I'm not exaclty sure...

[thecapn]

It's my understanding that GAT ran TFK for two reasons: the first, because it doesn't have the room for intuitions because it uses more slots for creatures which makes Accumulated Knowledge weaker.   The second, and more important, is *because Tog runs the AK engine* and GAT doesn't have the tools (probably intuition) to win the AK mirror.

[Toad]

[sarcasm]
TFK is awesome in GAT because you can go turn 2 Quirion Dryad, turn 3 TFK, swing with a 2/2 Dryad. Savage, eh?
[/sarcasm]

I thought GAT was a "Gro" deck. Then why run 3cc cantrips in there? Because TFK is "in the mood"?

[WildWillieWonderboy]

TFK: 2U, draw three discard 2 (more costly brainstorm)
AK: 1U draw alot, then yawg will for more
Hulk has so much brokeness that the best plan is to draw cards that draw cards and so on, thus having a large hand for tog and possibly library.
You should not be looking for ways to discard cards, this isn't madness. Although tog can use cards in the yard, it can use cards in hand better, namely by playing them or discarding them to tog. Only decks with welder should play TFK because then it reads 2U: draw three, make your deck ridiculous

[Hi-Val]

I'll state it again: TFK is run because you cannot run AK. Hulk gets too much of an advantage against GAT if the latter runs AK, taking away all the advantages of the matchup. If Hulk can run AKs, it should. It has better uses for Mana Drain mana, and the Intuition for AK is one of the best uses of it.

The TFK/DA engine is probably the strongest second to AK that GAT can run. It's a less-than-ideal engine but it stops Hulk from winning the mirror as easily. Hulk is more likely to have a Tog in play than GAT, and it just eats up the AKs in its graveyard when the opponent casts his AK.

To sum up: AK > TFK.

[BreathWeapon]

I'm not even sure I agree with the premise for which TFK was included into GAT. Who says GAT can't win the AK mirror? Slow rolling the AKs makes Intuition a liability in HULK, not a strength. So long as you are willing to build a GAT deck with the AK Mirror in mind, 4 Duress MD and 2 Scepters, and your lucky enough to play against Ubg Tog (Ubgr is the better deck) and you have the Red Splash you should be good to go.

[InsaneScrub]

I just love TFK, I fear though that it might get restricted eventually.  In all consideration, if your gonna be pitching artifacts to the grave, maybe you could use cool artifacts in the deck that would be a situational win, like null rod or something.

[MartinMM]

[sarcasm]
TFK is awesome in GAT because you can go turn 2 Quirion Dryad, turn 3 TFK, swing with a 2/2 Dryad. Savage, eh?
[/sarcasm]

I thought GAT was a "Gro" deck. Then why run 3cc cantrips in there? Because TFK is "in the mood"?

Try it. Im not much of a theory guy, but TFK works extremly well in gat, at least when i use it.

[Master Grinder]

I don't see the point of running TFK in Hulk instead of the intuition/AK engine....Like most people said, Hulk has the upper hand in the AK/mirror vs GAT,  so why change it....

TFK might be good for GAT....But for Hulk,  the main goal is to actually Draw cards....that is why Hulk is running 2-3 intuition (3 in the latest smmenen build),  The Hulk player will rarely play an AK for 1,  He will first play 1 for 3 and the next for 4.   TFK is an expensive cantrip for hulk and won't replace the original engine IMO.

Speaking of GAT, I'm still not a big fan of the TFK engine,  too clunky and mana hungry for me.  I don't play in a Heavy tog environnement so I'm still able to play AK without to much risk. But since the goal in GAT is to "gro" the dryad playing as many spells as you can,  I think I'll be playing serum vision as a 4of as soon as it is legal.  paired with brainstorm, this card will be awsome (check the type 1 forums for more explanations).

[Matt]

TFK certainly has synergy with the AKs and DAs in Hulk, but the problem is that it doesn't have MORE synergy than what's already there (Intuition), so it's a dead end. It's like replacing Lightning Bolt with Hammer of Bogardan - sure, it still fits the deck's strategy, and does it well enough...it just doesn't do it as well as what was originally there.

[Jhaggs]

I purposely waited several days to respond back to this thread becuase I wanted to digest some of the comments written back to me and to run my new Hulk build in a round-robin test session I had with numerous friends this past weekend who all ran powered builds.  After NUMEROUS changes I made with my HUlk build I finally went with the following:

Thirsty Tog

Mana Sources 24
2 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
4 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
3 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Mana Crypt
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire

Kill 3
3 Psychatog

Control 11
1 Pernicious Deed
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
1 Duress
1 Mind Twist

Draw and Search 22
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish
3 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Accumulated Knowledge
1 Intuition
3 Deep Analysis
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will

The Sideboard 15
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Artifact Mutation
1 Berserk
1Coffin Purge
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Fire (Fire/Ice)
1 Hearth Charm
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Vampiric Tutor
2 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Nevy's Disk

Deck Notes

* 4 Fetchlands
* No Mystical Tutor
* Nevy's Disk was a meta game sideboard call.  It was used when facing artifact decks that used artifacts whose casting cost went beyond the reach of Deed.
* Hearth's Charm was used as a meta game call.  It was interesting but not that great.

Hearth Charm R
Instant
Choose one — Destroy target artifact creature; or all attacking creatures get +1/+0 until end of turn; or target creature with power 2 or less is unblockable this turn.


Over the course of 30 games [7 hours  :shock: ] the deck preformed phenomenally well.  I really took to heart what several people wrote back to me in PM's and in this thread.

Hi-Val writes:

To sum up: AK > TFK.

Matt writes:

TFK certainly has synergy with the AKs and DAs in Hulk, but the problem is that it doesn't have MORE synergy than what's already there (Intuition), so it's a dead end. It's like replacing Lightning Bolt with Hammer of Bogardan - sure, it still fits the deck's strategy, and does it well enough...it just doesn't do it as well as what was originally there.

Both statements caused me to ponder whether or not TFK was better than the AK engine.  I concluded that both engines on their own performed equally.  In my soliatre testing through Magic Workstation both decks won at equal rates against a gaunlet of top builds.  So I went back and re-evaluted the other card choices in my build to see if I could make a decision one which engine to use.  Knowing that HUlk is most often played as a combo build I decided to try to make both engines work.  I felt that getting to your combos through the most direct route made the most sense.  I basically decided to just out race my opponents.  I cut the following:

-2 Duress
-1 Mystical tutor
-1 Intuition

I added:

+3 Thirst for Knowledge
+1 Deep Analysis

The engine of 3 Thirst for Knowledge, 4 Accumulated Knowledge, 1 Intuition, 3 Deep Analysis has incredible synergy.  Not only does it enable you to race through deck, it can also allow you to rebuild your hand in one or two turns when you may have a low card count in hand.  Having the option to drop DA's in the graveyard through other cards outside of Tog and Intuition is amazing.  TFK can become an engine by itself with a full set of AK's and 3 DA's.  

I feel that at some point Hulk players are going to have to take a serious look at the addition to TFK in the maindeck.  I think the current meta convinces me to opt for a Hulk build that draws at a much higher rate.  Quite frankly, I like it much better than Intuition because often times it can net you more cards.  I think that through this much more agressive draw engine you can get away with dropping your duress count simply from the standpoint that you'll be drawing into alot more FOWand Drains.  You'll also grant yourself access to Will and Twist with much more frequency.  Finally, Mystical Tutor's days are numbered in Hulk.  There are now much better choices for this slot.  TFK or Mystical...for me the choice is clear.  Drawing 3 now is so much better.

Thanks for all the feedback.

[Machinus]

2 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
4 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
3 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Mana Crypt
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire

3 Psychatog

1 Pernicious Deed
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
1 Duress
1 Mind Twist

1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish
3 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Accumulated Knowledge
1 Intuition
3 Deep Analysis
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will


Having the option to drop DA's in the graveyard through other cards outside of Tog and Intuition is amazing.

One duress? How does that make any sense. Two duress is better than one duress and one twist.

Also, what is the point of having ONE intuition if you are going to run 3 DA AND 4 AK ?! You need to get one set of them in the yard, intuition is much better than TFK for that. The chances that you will have 2 DA in hand, or 3 AK are really ridiculously small. You don't run mysical even though you keep 4 BS and 4 PD, which means you cant grab the third or fourth AK. TFK is only good when you are discarding one artifact to it. If you need more draw, keep the existing engine and add a couple of thirsts, the deck can't support MORE 3cc draw.

Is this deck four colors? Two basic islands? What?

[Jhaggs]

Machinus,

Twist is too powerful to cut.  It can just win you games on its own.  The duress count can be lowered because of the agressive draw power of the build.  I am actually thinking about removing duress entirely.  I leave the one duress in the MD because it still proves useful in clearling a way to combo out.  When I need it, I know I can draw into it.  It is important to note that this draw engine is trying to bully its way towards victory.  On the surface it appears to be going away from control and more towards combo with the added draw but I think this build allows you to draw into more FOW & Drains if you need them.  I would rather have more draw cards than a few more duress cards under this premise.

The deck can support more 3cc draw cards.  I am absolutely convinced of this.  TFK is a great way to drop DA's into the graveyard.  I view them as castable Fact or Fictions by turn 2.  Rarely are you hurt by having to drop 2 cards in the graveyard from TFK where you can't further abuse them for more draw effects.  The intution/TFK ratio can be adjusted to a 2:2 count.  I prefer running only 1 intuition and 3 TFk, because I just like TFK digging ability.  I find it much more useful.The statement of, " TFK is only good when you are discarding one artifact to it" is wrong in my opinion.  For something like slavery this statement makes sense.  However, the design of this build shows that it can have other uses inside other decks.  Again, they are like castable FOF.  They have been incredibly useful in many of my matchups.

The two basic islands are needed.  Losing to Back to basics in a 3 color Hulk matchup and blood moon in side other builds just sucks.  Just having one island isn't enough to play around these enchantments.