Hulk 2k4, Or More Appropiately; SmmenaTog > KerzAtog

[JuJu]

It's unfortunate I cannot post on the Closed Forum Cause I had alot of questions that I would've liked being answered, except you answered most of them on IRC, and thank you. Anyways...
Back to the point. First, Great deck. I love the new mana base, the deck seems to be relying on red much more now, to beat both Madness, Fish and the like along with Slaver(Both Versions). I know this has been went through a million times and I'm thinking that perhaps it may be another question to ask. Would Fling be better then Berserk? This is most probably just an idea of how making the mana base EVEN better gets to me, and the possibility of adding a few strips. There are a few reasons not to play Fling and one big reason that's rather new. First, geting it countered is a huge loss. The newer reason is Chalice for Two. Versus Workshop Slaver Fling seems like a dead card. However, Steve brought up a very, very valid point in that Shamans, along with Artifact Destruction and driving Welders into the ground, make Slavery such a better matchup.
Another thing about the New tog and it's mana-base that attracts me so much is the possibility of Strip Mine. I'm not entirely sure Strip Mine is the right choice, but against random Maze of Iths* and Opposing Libraries along with the chance to screw with the fragile mana-bases like Slavers and Madness' in the early game makes it so very attractive. Would cutting the second island for a Strip Mine be a possibility? One other thing I've been thinking about is the inclusion of the basic Swamp that others have been using. I'm not quite sure about it though. The only matchup it's really needed is against Blood Moons(which most people are cutting) in Slaver, where you would usually side out the Togs.

That's about it for now, great job once again. Oh and remember Smenna(insert random card syllable) > *

EDIT: For My stupidness I didn't mention why Maze of Ith isn't really a problem
Maze of Ith isn't as bad as everyone thinks, though many people think it stops Tog in it's tracks, it's alot like Xantid Swarm, you have to play better and make your decisions better along with using your cards to it's maximum effect. For These reasons Maze of Ith is very easy to play around, using Will, Walk, Fire/Ice(Usually SB) and Multiple Togs

[Klep]

With this build of Hulk your metagame is an incredibly important consideration.  My meta, for example, is light on wastes and has no Blood Moons.  Therefore, it is safer to run the lower mana count and more non-basics.  In addition, I have to run up against Draw7.dec, which is rare in Smennen's inbred meta of Slaver, Hulk, and U/G.  This means that Duress is much more important to me than it is in a meta where most of the decks either use the graveyard anyway or abuse discard.  I am going to test the third Intuition though, as it seems a potentially powerfull change to the deck.

EDIT: Fling is not good for Hulk.  There are better options available, and unblockability is more important than sheer damage.  The better alternative to Berserk is Ensnare, which not only get's Tog's damage through, but also increases your hand size.

[JuJu]

With this build of Hulk your metagame is an incredibly important consideration.

That is so true. I'm basically faced alot like Smmenen's meta without the Madness and instead with Dragon and Aggro. I loved running low mana sources for more business spells, but it kinda crapped out when wastes hit me and Shamans were everywhere. I'm going to miss the third Duress(I was running 4!) and hopefully the long matchup will be few and far between. I'm beginning to think Fling is a bad idea too. Green is really too important for the deck. Berserk and Artifact Mutation are GAME openers/finishers.

[Kerz]

Kerzatog and Smmenenatog are like 4 cards off. Here is my take on the controversial choices:

In my opinion, the 3rd Intuion is absolutely not needed. Adding it will obviously increase how early and how often you see it, but I think #3 puts it over the edge to just too much. You don't want to cast Intuiton for AKs in the mirror (normally), so you want to see ONE of them, grabbing 2 Deep Analysis. After you resolve the first, the rest of the Intuiton draws are pretty much dead, aside from funky stuff like Demonic/Tog/Deed and the like.Intuition is also three mana, making it on the somewhat clunky side, even with all the acceleration. Against Aggro, you only want to get AKs. If you draw 2 AKs, all THREE are dead (sans the odd choices, but thats really a moot point). Once you get your AKs, you really don't want to see the other two, increasing your dead cards. There are a lot of matchups where you want to intuiton for AKs and DAs, but there are also many where you don't, including the ever popular mirror.

Cutting down to 2 Duress is also not the play in my eyes. Having just two means that you simply will not see them early enough to matter versus combo like Draw7 and Belcher, in addition to not being able to stunt control with them. You will see duress a lot less frequently in the early game, preventing you from doing plays like duress --> Intuition versus control, which just wins, but you can Sub Intuition for any one of your bomb spells, which Tog is packed with. Going to two defeats the pourpose of running the card at all in my eyes, because it really is an early game card by nature.

No Mystical Tutor? I think this is another mistake, influenced by the fact that too many people are stuck on tog going off on turn 4 every game. Mystical is such a fucking bomb card, it fetches all the best cards in your deck, including the situational Wish to Zerk over or deal with a threat. It can also get DA versus control, or Intuition... and the list goes on. It really is just another draw spell when you are already maxed out on AKs and DAs. The sacrificing of one draw is obviously offset by the sheer power of the card it is fetching, whether it is drawing cards to make up for it, or just winning the game (will, wish).

Two Blue Elemental Blast in the SB  is a good call. It lets you board them in versus slaver as silver bullets to kill welders and moon, among other awesome utility uses.. against dragon, lackey, or random red.

One Shaman main and Two Board is an acceptable configuration, but I think that in a big-tourney metagame (especially with proxies) , you might need more than one shaman in game one because of the obvious large amount of slaver that will appear there. If a mediocre matchup of yours is definitely going to be in force (which it definitely will at this time), why not preemtively take action and MAINDECK the second shaman? I think thats the play, at least it is at this point in time. Shaman just wrecks slavery, its a fact. I go with two maindeck- for big metagames like Waterbury, at least. For smaller ones like Hadley or Cape Cod, I'd play them BOTH in the sideboard.

Also, I'll breifly address Wasteland This card is OK in 3 Color Tog that can support it well, but when you try to cram it in to the 4 color deck, it sucks. Also, it doesn't go at all well with the "combo" theme.

Without further ado, here is the pinnacle of my work on tog, which isn't very different from Smmenen's list, but how different can two 4c-Togs get?

Aaron Kerzner - Kerzatog 4/21/2004

//Win
3 Psychatog ( you lose )

//Draw
1 Ancestral Recall
2 Deep Analysis
4 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge

//Tutor
3 Cunning Wish
2 Intuition
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor

//Counter/Disruption
3 Duress
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will

//Other
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Time Walk
1 Mind Twist

//Utility
2 Gorilla Shaman

//Land/Mana
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Library of Alexandria

//Sideboard
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Oxidize
1 Artifact Mutation
1 Naturalize
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Firestorm
1 Berserk
1 Fire/Ice

Kerz

[Klep]

I think the third Intuition stands a good chance of being strong in the deck, and I'm going to test it in place of Mystical whether you like it or not  

If your concern is that you don't want it in the mirror, you can always board it out.  One problem I've noticed is that I often don't get Intuition as early as I want it, and a third would go a long way towards resolving this issue.  Mystical has been rather lackluster for me in Hulk anyway.

I agree, going down to 2 Duress is a bad idea.  However, Smennen's meta may call for it.  Personally, I sometimes wish I had a fourth.

[JuJu]

I think Kerz brings up a very good point in not including Mystical. I've liked Mystical alot in control decks like Tog and Gat and Keeper(Although both Tog and Gat aren't only control). I think what Steve was getting at by removing Inuition was that Hulk wants cards in hand, and really can't stand to lose card advantage, even if miniature. Loking at Tog without that third Duress really makes me miss it. I'm wondering if cutting the Deed would be the right idea since Wishes and Shaman basically deal with whatever Deed does. Of course, that is speculation so I'm not entirely sure on the matter.

EDIT: My Grammer is horrible

[Klep]

I'm wondering if cutting the Deed would be the right idea since Wishes and Shaman basically deal with whatever Deed does. Of course, that is speculation so I'm not entirely sure on the matter.

Cutting the deed is a very bad idea.  It is a vital card in so many matchups, from random aggro to Draw7 to Slaver itself.  The ability to wipe the board clean and follow up with Tog is too important to consider losing.

[JuJu]

I'm wondering if cutting the Deed would be the right idea since Wishes and Shaman basically deal with whatever Deed does. Of course, that is speculation so I'm not entirely sure on the matter.

Cutting the deed is a very bad idea.  It is a vital card in so many matchups, from random aggro to Draw7 to Slaver itself.  The ability to wipe the board clean and follow up with Tog is too important to consider losing.

True. However Deed is there as a panic button and Shaman along with the wishes might make the panic button have a small effect on the game.

[FireFall26]

Ive been running gush over mystical tutor.  Gush is good almost anytime, or atleast when u have 3 lands down, or some moxen.  WIth the gush, I have found you draw enough cards to not need mystical tutor, usually drawing into the will.

[Klep]

True. However Deed is there as a panic button and Shaman along with the wishes might make the panic button have a small effect on the game.

While Shaman can handle a lot of things like Moxen and small cc troublesome artifacts, it cannot handle Xantid Swarms and Welders.  These problem permanents must be dealt with if they aren't countered, and Deed is one of the best ways to do this.

[jpmeyer]

Inutition is always good.  Here are three uses for it:

1) Draw spells
2) Tog
3) Setting up Will

[BreathWeapon]

Man, it really is just unbelievable how much changing a few cards around in HULK makes all of the difference. Personaly, i'm in the 23 Mana Source camp + Gush, Crypt>Sol Ring. I really do think cutting Gush for Fetch #5 is a mistake, you trade vulnerbility to Stifle over Wasteland security? I'm also a 4 Duress advocate, call it a crutch if you want to, I love the card and hate combo. I've had a really good showing with 2xPernicious Deed MD instead of the Shamans. The Gorilla seems way too precise for my tastes, and Deed is soo much more flexible. I'll also never cut Mystical Tutor, cards that find Yawg Win are the tech.

Anyway, thats what I have come up with for HULK. The one card i'm not playing that everybody else seems to love is Deep Anal. Is this card really the bomb? I've hated it vs every deck other than the Tog Mirror, and i've got 4 Duress, 4 REBs in the SB, the extra Deed and I can Wish for FoF. Do we really need DA for The Mirror?

Hmm, I hate to go list happy with this thread, but I think it would make things clearer if I did.

"BW's HULK"

Disruption 12
4xForce of Will
4xMana Drain
4xDuress

Board Control 5
3xPsychatog
2xPernicious Deed

Bombs 3
1xMind Twist
1xYawgmoth's Will
1xTime Walk

Draw 10
1xGush
4xAccumulated Knowledge
4xBrainstorm
1xAncestral Recall

Search 7
2xIntuition
3xCunning Wish
1xDemonic Tutor
1xMystical Tutor

Mana 23
1xLibrary of Alexandria
4xFetch Lands
4xUnderground Sea
3xTropical Island
3xVolcanic Island
1xIsland
5xMoXeN
1xBlack Lotus
1xMana Crypt

Sideboard
1xBerserk
1xFirestorm
1xFact or Fiction
1xVampiric Tutor
4xRed Elemental Blast
1xBlue Elemental Blast
3xCoffin Purge
1xRack and Ruin
1xArtifact Mutation
1xOxidize

The only non-conservative choices in the list are Mana Crypt and Gush. I like to tighten my grip on the early game with 4 Duress and secure the late game with 2 Deed. I don't think going nutz with 3 Intuition and trying to aggressively Combo out is worth losing Control over.

[Klep]

I really do think cutting Gush for Fetch #5 is a mistake, you trade vulnerbility to Stifle over Wasteland security?

I live dangerously, running both.  I only have 22 mana sources, which hasn't been too much of a problem because there aren't many Wastelands and no Blood Moons around here.

I'm also a 4 Duress advocate, call it a crutch if you want to, I love the card and hate combo.

I've made my thoughts clear on Duress. I don't blame you for having 4.  I wouldn't go below 3 if there's threat of combo in your meta.

I've had a really good showing with 2xPernicious Deed MD instead of the Shamans. The Gorilla seems way too precise for my tastes, and Deed is soo much more flexible. I'll also never cut Mystical Tutor, cards that find Yawg Win are the tech.

I can assure you Shaman is a house.  He's just amazing.  Mystical Tutor, frankly, is probably the weakest card in the deck.  If anything is to be cut, it's Mystical.  The more I goldfish, the more I'm happy that I have a 3rd Intuition instead of a Mystical.  Getting off the AK train earlier and more consistently is worth the loss of the tutor.

Anyway, thats what I have come up with for HULK. The one card i'm not playing that everybody else seems to love is Deep Anal. Is this card really the bomb? I've hated it vs every deck other than the Tog Mirror, and i've got 4 Duress, 4 REBs in the SB, the extra Deed and I can Wish for FoF. Do we really need DA for The Mirror?

DA is really good.  It's your secondary draw, what you get off the second Intuition.  They really are good draw for this deck, and though they get sided out in a lot of matchups, for the ones they stay in you need them.

I don't think going nutz with 3 Intuition and trying to aggressively Combo out is worth losing Control over.

I like drawing cards.  The third Intuition ensures I do that more consistently and earlier.  This is the best and most important of the changes Smennen has proposed.  I love it so far.

[colebert]

Due to the meta in my area my deck runs 3 wastes and 1 strips and some 5 islands(B2B is crazy around here sometimes). It has no land problems and the waste/strips kill most deck around here. I would like to see more Hulk decks run stips. On another point.. Intuition is too good.  It makes my head hurt. It gives you mad draw and and sets up the kill. Hell how many times have people conceeded to you after inution #2? Quite a few for me. This is a pretty good point for 3 in the deck. Hell with all of the draw in the deck i've had people conceed at the sight of tog even when I couldn't deal lethal damage.

[Klep]

Due to the meta in my area my deck runs 3 wastes and 2 strips and some 5 islands(B2B is crazy around here sometimes). It has no land problems and the waste/strips kill most deck around here.

What kind of meta are you facing where you can run 5 strips? And how are you running 2 Strip Mines?  How many mana sources do you have total?

[jpmeyer]

Yeah, I've found that I can run like 4 Strips and maybe 2 Islands if I'm only 3 colors, but unless you have like no Moxes in your deck I can't see that.

[cssamerican]

My Hulk deck I use is three colors with 0 strip effects and 4 Islands. This is because it is much more likely for me to run into Gay Red or Mono-Blue Fish than Workshop decks. This keeps the mana base very solid, and with Ground Seal and Blue Elemental Blast in the board I still have very good solutions to Slaver if I run into one. And the more I play three color Tog the more I like it because of the added stability it gives the deck; however, I will admit that if you see a ton of Slavery or Workshop based decks than you are probably better off with the red splash with the Mox Monkey maindecked. I am just not sure how many people can say that they see Slavery or Workshop decks more than Fish in their metagame.

[PucktheCat]

One more version for people to consider, my Tog is Smmenen’s with these changes:

-1 Island
-1 Volcanic Island
+1 Duress
+1 Sol Ring

Right now I am extremely torn between the third Intuition and Gush.  I switch about every other game.

I don’t see why people run either Sol Ring or Mana Crypt.  Regardless of whether you think one is better than the other they are both a huge speed boost.  Sol Ring increases your chance of getting three mana first turn as much as another Mox would.  

The argument that it somehow gives the deck “too much” mana is, to be blunt, nonsense.  This deck loves fast colorless mana and should play all the good sources of it that it can.

Everyone keeps comparing Sol Ring to Mana Crypt and Sol Ring.  They should be comparing it to either an Island or one of the weaker maindeck cards (Mystical Tutor, Duress come to mind).

I could throw out some statistics to support my position, and if people are interested I will, but the best way to decide is to test it yourself the same way Smmenen suggested testing Mana Crpyt.  Draw a six card hand and add Sol Ring to it then play a test game or goldfish.  They do the same thing with the card you are considering cutting for Sol Ring.

Leo

[Klep]

I don’t see why people run either Sol Ring or Mana Crypt.  Regardless of whether you think one is better than the other they are both a huge speed boost.  Sol Ring increases your chance of getting three mana first turn as much as another Mox would.  

I too would love to fit in Sol Ring, but cutting a blue source is not the place to do it.  The only card I would consider replacing with Sol Ring right now is Mox Pearl, and I'm not sure if that's worth it.

[PucktheCat]

I don’t see why people run either Sol Ring or Mana Crypt.  Regardless of whether you think one is better than the other they are both a huge speed boost.  Sol Ring increases your chance of getting three mana first turn as much as another Mox would.  

I too would love to fit in Sol Ring, but cutting a blue source is not the place to do it.  The only card I would consider replacing with Sol Ring right now is Mox Pearl, and I'm not sure if that's worth it.

We have people running 24 mana sources with 17 U sources and people running 22 sources with 15 U-sources.  While I would never suggest going to 14 blue sources or going up to 25 mana sources these builds show fairly conclusively that it is possible to pay the colored costs of the deck with 15 colored land and equally show that the deck can have enough business spells with 24 mana sources to be competitive.  With that in mind a mana base like this . . .

23 Mana, 15 blue
5 Fetchland
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt

. . . or this . . .

24 Mana, 16 blue
5 Fetchland
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt

. . . seems quite reasonable.

Leo

[JuJu]

The Third Intuition is really good. It gives you more consistency to get that 3rd AK online. Mystical, Merchant Scroll and the like are only going to be good to get the 4th ak. Getting the 4th AK is going to happen often enough with the 3rd intuiotion anyways so there's no big deal.
Sol Ring doesn't need to be added to the deck however. Mana crypt took it's place and there's nothing I'd want to cut for the Sol Ring. tapping out first turn to play more mana isn't what this deck wants. I've been missing the 2nd Duress alot actually. Something Windfall mentioned in the Closed T1 forum is very valid to the argument of it. Mind Twist is more controllish then Comboish, something this deck wants to pull off more often. Duress on the other hand helps this deck pull off the combo win. For these reasons Duress #3 might be better then Mind Twist, however I'm not sure.

Off-Topic: Congrats to Klep for Full Member Status

[BreathWeapon]

Cutting Mind Twist for Duress is simply non-sensical, how many games have we all won from a broken Drain into Mind Twist?

I also think this 2 Tropical Island 2 Volcanic Island set ups I keep seeing is way too unstable. You can't support Red with only 2 Volcanics and Green is really questionable with only 2 Trops. Seriously, you don't need the 5th Fetch Land if its going to cost you Trop or Volcanic #3.

[JuJu]

The reason for cutting Mind Twist for the third Duress is so that you get a better shot at beating Combo. Read next time.

[Klep]

Having seen my local meta sport 44% combo tonight, I am more resolved than before that I must stick with at least 3 Duress.  The third Intuition seems to be Gold, however.  

I'm still not decided one way or the other on the Pearl v. Sol Ring debate, though right now I'm leaning toward Pearl.  I suppose it's something I should test if I get the chance.  Oh well, I at least will be forced to if I go to the June tournament in Raleigh.  Proxy 7 is just a couple cards short...

[PucktheCat]

Sol Ring doesn't need to be added to the deck however. Mana crypt took it's place and there's nothing I'd want to cut for the Sol Ring. tapping out first turn to play more mana isn't what this deck wants

I keep hearing this assertion.  I haven't really seen it backed up with anything more than repetition.

Statistically the chances of Sol Ring interfering with your first turn play are fairly small.  In any hand that has another fast colorless source Sol Ring doesn't slow you down at all.  Similarly, in any hand that has no one-drops you can cast Sol Ring without a problem.  Between these two, that is about 80% of possible hands with a Sol Ring and six other cards.*

In the remaining 20% you will have to make a choice between 1st turn Sol Ring and another one drop.  That is bad, but not as bad as it has been made out to be.  If the one drop is a Brainstorm it may be a better play to wait until you have played a fetchland so you can shuffle anyway.  If the one drop is something you feel it is essential to play first turn (Duress against combo or something) you can wait to play the Sol Ring.

If you can't play the Ring first turn then it has been observed that playing it second turn could interfere with Mana Drain.  This is true, however, only when you have a Mana Drain in your hand, which is less than half the time.  Since 80% of the times that you draw it you can play Sol Ring first turn without a meaniningful disadvantage and half of the remaining 20% you can play it second turn without a meaningful disadvantage, 90% of the time Sol Ring's casting cost will not affect your deck's development.

In exchange for the disadvantage of the casting cost** you get very good acceleration.  First turn Sol Ring makes it possible to second turn Cunning Wish for and cast 1cc spells second turn, or cast two second turn spells (Demonic Tutor and Time Walk, for example).  It also second turn Deep Analysis possible, and second turn Mind Twist much stronger.  Even in the rare games where its casting cost is annoying the payoff will often outweigh the cost.  All through the rest of the game Sol Ring will generate two mana without costing your anything, and give you a substantial advantage in casting your mana intensive spells.

Sol Ring was argued against again and again in the early days of Hulk's development, but in the end it was added at the expense of the last Strip Mine in the deck.  The reasoning for this was that Hulk is the deck that makes the best use of its mana in the format.  The fact that a new accelerator has been found for the deck  (Mana Crypt) doesn't mean that it doesn't want more.  I think this deck would play 10 Moxen if it could.

Edit:  One additional point.  The casting cost of Sol Ring only becomes a relevent disadvantage in hands with no other acceleration.  Even if the hand does meet the other requirements discussed (re one-drops and Mana Drain) it may be worth it to take a hit first turn to get some acceleration in a hand that otherwise is probably weak.  As jp often says, this deck isn't viable without power.  The reason that is true is that it is entirely dependent on fast mana to power out its most important spells.  The hands where Sol Ring's casting cost is relevent are those that most desperatly need acceleration.  If the deck isn't viable unpowered then the hands Sol Ring affects would be very weak hands anyway - Sol Ring might make them impossible, in which case you have lost little, or might make a bad hand good, in which case you have gained a lot.

Leo

*This calculation, as always, involves a bit of fudging.  It is based on a deck that has 9 one drops (3 Duress, 4 Brainstorm, 1 Gorilla Shaman, 1 Ancestral Recall) and 5 colorless sources (Mana Crypt and the non-Sapphire Moxen).  Jet and Ruby are obviously sometimes useful for casting one-drops, but by the same token Sapphire is often not.  When you take into account the fact that in hands where Ruby and Jet cast the one drop you would need to have two one drops to make Sol Ring's casting cost relevant, I am confident that this is a reasonably accurate assertion.

**Which, as argued above, is only really relevent in about 10% of opening hands that have a Sol Ring - those hands where you have no other acceleration, a one drop and a mana drain.

[DEA]

why is this man still a basic member?

Because we missed his last 8 posts
-Jacob

[Ultima]

I think the ironic thing is that the same argument for the inclusion of Gush is the exact same arguement that one could use for NOT including the 3rd intuiton.

That is to say that the original argument for Gush was - Singletons are amazing in Tog because Tog sees every card in its deck by turn 5.  

Therefore, the inclusion of the 3rd intution seems unnecassary unless your playing the deck wrong.  As well as the argument that after the 1st intuition, tog wins most the time anyway unless there's a dire threat on the board or you don't have the Tog yet.

The real question that should be asked to the players that know Tog best like JP Meyer, is do you ever find difficulty seeing intution before turn 3-4?

[JuJu]

I think the ironic thing is that the same argument for the inclusion of Gush is the exact same arguement that one could use for NOT including the 3rd intuiton.

In My mind Steve's choice was in between Gush and Intuition. I'm questioning it now because Gush is really missed. On a different note. Would the 3rd Intuition put into the sideboard be good? I'm seeing it as a sort of bigger Vampiric Tutor and that's certainly some good.

There's been alot of talk whether people should run Mox Pearl or Sol Ring. There's a few things that I've observed while playtesting that makes free mana better. First, the deck is more mana hungry then it ever was before. The deck is relying more on red for the sb, still needs Green to combo over. Black to win. And of course that's not even counting the Wastelands that will be sent your way. Being able to cast free mana is always good. Always. Cutting Mox Pearl for Sol Ring is almost the same as cutting Sol Ring for Grim Monolith. It's just not a good idea. I'm not going to say test it yourself but the reults that I've had demand mana early, not later.

I've think Togs toughest matchups now are Fish, U/G Madness and the like along with Draw7. Slaver has gotten alot better of a matchup with Gorilla Shaman. It's far from easy. But it's much better then what it was. What do people side in/out against Draw7? I have no idea other then the Shamans, and that I miss the Duress' alot

[PucktheCat]

There's been alot of talk whether people should run Mox Pearl or Sol Ring.

I don't know whether this was directed at me or not, but I certainly didn't say you should run Sol Ring over Pearl.  I said you should run it in addition.

Leo

[colebert]

Due to the meta in my area my deck runs 3 wastes and 2 strips and some 5 islands(B2B is crazy around here sometimes). It has no land problems and the waste/strips kill most deck around here.

What kind of meta are you facing where you can run 5 strips? And how are you running 2 Strip Mines?  How many mana sources do you have total?

Sorry I meant 3 wastes and 1 strip(oh and I actually only run 4 islands). I should pay more attention to my posts. I also should mention that my metagame is kinda small. I do see Keeper, Mono-Blue, EBA(style decks), Welder(non Slaver so far), combo is rare but I have seen it all, and some random stuff(mostly aggro. I am currently running for mana:
4x Underground Sea
3x Tropical Island
3x Volcanic Island
4x Island
5xFetchland
3xWasteland
1xstrip mine
1xMox Diamond(now comence with the WTF?!?! i know you are thinking it.)
1x Sol Ring
Ok.. Yes this does obviously mean I have no power, not even mana crypt. As far as the mana goes, its working for me. I know nobody likes Mox Diamond, but it works for me. If you know Psychatog, you know it does not need power to win. Im not saying I wouldn't put it in if I had it, im just saying that I am not missing it right now. I am still crushing decks around here with this list, even fully powered ones. Aggro is obviously a little rougher, but I have a strong winning record against it.