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Author Topic: [Report] Rico's revenge with BFD  (Read 5734 times)
Rico Suave
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« on: April 25, 2004, 10:36:55 pm »

So a long time ago, someone stole my cards.  That sucked, but I saved up, and recollected power, some duals, etc, and today was my first tourney in a long while, so I was totally pumped.

It was a 5 proxy tourney, and I was going into this place needing about 6 cards that people told me they'd hook me up with.  I got none of those cards.  So, I did my best to collect what I could, and ended up after proxying to be 4 cards short of what I wanted, so that will explain questionable choices in the decklist.  Here is what I played:

BFD (Big Fat Deck) (Originally posted here)

Mana (29)
4 Mishra's Workshop
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Volcanic Island
4 Shivan Reef
1 City of Brass
7 SoLoMoxen
1 Mana Vault
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland

Critters (13)
4 Goblin Welder
4 Sundering Titan
3 Triskelion
1 Memnarch
1 Platinum Angel

Utility (12)
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Tinker
1 Memory Jar
1 Time Walk
4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Brainstorm

Disruption (6)
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Trinisphere :( :( :(

SB:
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Rack and Ruin
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Gorilla Shaman

What I wanted to play, assuming people followed through with being able to help me out, would've been:

-1 Ancient Tomb
+1 Academy

-1 Trisk
-1 Titan
+2 Trinisphere :( :( :(

-4 SB Gorilla Shaman
+4 SB Damping Matrix

-1 Brainstorm
+1 Mana Crypt

That last change will come up later.

Round 1 vs. Jay w/ R/G

I lose the roll, he goes first.

Game 1: He plays Kird Ape, I play Welder, he plays something I don't remember, I play Thirst and Weld back Titan.  He can't deal with it.

SB: nothing

Game 2: He plays first turn something I don't remember, I play first turn Chalice for 1, he puts Naturalize on Isochron Scepter.  I strip some of his lands, and eventually hardcast Titan, leaving him without mana for Scepter.

Games: 2-0
Matches: 1-0

Round 2 vs. Brian w/ R/G

I lose the roll, he goes first.

Game 1: He drops Kird Ape, I play something or other, then he Land Grants revealing a hand full of 1cc spells, ripe for my next turn Chalice for 1.  He keeps swinging, but Trisk/Titan leave him without many options.

SB: nothing
 
Game 2: He plays Grim Lavamancer, I play first turn Trinisphere.  He strips my Shop, and draws 2 more strips for my next few lands.  He gets me down to about 10 life, and I eventually pull through with Titan leaving him fully locked.  

Games: 4-0
Matches: 2-0

Round 3 vs. Pepe w/ Vengeur Mask

I lose the roll, he goes first.

Game 1: He plays first turn BoP, I play first turn Chalice for 2.  He scoops later on with 3 Masks in hand.

SB: I never saw any SB cards

Game 2: He goes first turn Brainstorm, I play Chalice for 2.  He is once again stuck, but he manages Shapeshifter + Quirion Ranger to my 2 Wastelands.  I make a few mistakes with stacking effects, but nevertheless I keep his Shapeshifter under control long enough for Trisk to wipe out his x/1 dudes and turn his Shapeshifter useless.

Games: 6-0
Matches: 3-0

Round 4 vs. Nick w/ Tog?  

I win the roll, and go first.

Game 1: I mull into a first turn Trinisphere.  I keep him off 3 land with Wastes for a while, but he eventually Brainstorms and Duress, but I play Welder when he can't stop it.  When he passes the turn, I untap and bring in Titan for the win.

SB: -1 Trisk, -1 Time Walk, -1 Brainstorm, +3 REB

Game 2: He plays first turn land, Sapphire.  I drop Emerald, Ruby, Shop, Trinisphere, REB his Drain.  He misses a 2nd turn land drop, and it only goes downhill for him.  He eventually tries to AK, but he can't keep up.  Titan seals the deal.

Games: 8-0
Matches: 4-0

Round 5 vs. ??? w/ Keeper

We ID into top 8, I'm first seed.

Games: 8-0
Matches: 4-0-1

Top 8, round 1 vs. Coony(spelling?) w/ Control Slaver

I win the roll, and go first.

Game 1: I keep a hand with 5 land, Chalice, and Brainstorm.  I play Volc and pass.  He drops LoA.  I eot Brainstorm, into 2 land and another Brainstorm.  I Waste his LoA, and Brainstorm into 3 land.  I can't really keep up, since land don't do anything he gains too much of an advantage before I can fight back.

SB: -something, +Gorilla Shamans (remember, I wanted Damping Matrix too)

Game 2: I keep a hand with 3 Wastes, Tomb, Chalice, Trinisphere, and the altered art Brainstorm that should have been my Mana Crypt.  I play Chalice for 0 first turn, he Forces, and I'm left saddened because I can't play first turn Trinisphere due to not having Crypt.  He plays first turn land, mox, walk, then land, Crypt, Memory Jar.  I do my best to keep up with Trinisphere to stunt his Jar, and when he passes the turn back I keep stripping stuff.  For a while I'm stuck with Shop, 2 colored land, and a hand with Welder, Brainstorm (that should've been Crypt), and Gorilla Shaman (which should've been Damping Matrix).  Eventually we both begin to stabilize around the same time, with him playing Welder and me replying with Shaman.  The next turn he plays Mindslaver, and activates it.  I am saddened, because Matrix is good and Shaman isn't Matrix (not to mention I would've cast the Matrix a long time before that, since I had shop).  He takes over my turn, and does so multiple times but can't finish me off.  He keeps Jarring and stuff, but I somehow manage to keep with it.  I lose control when he Slaves me and takes that Brainstorm that should've been a Crypt and puts back all my threats in hand only to Jar them away.  He has counters for everything else while Welders beat me down.

Games: 8-2
Matches: 4-1-1

So after rocking the swiss undefeated, I then lose after getting into the top 8.  Yay!

I would like to think I would've done better if I had the right cards, but I won't complain.  I'll just do better next time. ;)

Oh well, it was fun, and there was a lot of diversity there.  I saw Keeper, Landstill, Tog?, Belcher, FCG, Control Slaver, Vengeur, B/U Mask, R/G, and other cool things.  I also noticed a lot of power cards that weren't proxied, which is always good to see.  

So with that in mind, I'd like to reopen this deck for discussion.  If I were to play this again tomorrow with all the cards, I would do something like this:

BFD

Mana (30)
4 Mishra's Workshop
2 Ancient Tomb
4 Volcanic Island
4 Shivan Reef
1 City of Brass
1 Tolarian Academy
7 SoLoMoxen
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland

Critters (11)
4 Goblin Welder
3 Sundering Titan
3 Triskelion
1 Platinum Angel

Utility (11)
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Tinker
1 Memory Jar
1 Time Walk
4 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Brainstorm

Disruption (8)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere

SB:
3 Red Elemental Blast
4 Rack and Ruin
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Damping Matrix

I'm not too satisfied with Brainstorm, though.  I wanted to try it in an effort to improve consistency, but it sucks with so few ways to shuffle.  It also means you're not dropping a threat on the board, and this deck LOVES to drop threats.

I'm not sure what to replace it with, though.

Memnarch only came up once, and I really wanted it to be Trisk (against Control Slaver, when I was trying to gain the upper hand).  The activation cost is painful, so I think I'm gonna cut it.

The deck is brutally powerful with lots of bombs.  It's also amazingly consistent, in that I never lost a game to mana screw despite 3+ Wastes under Trinisphere, and I only mulled twice the entire time - once because of mana flood.

I wanted to post this here instead of the Tournament Report forum for general feedback on the deck and not just as a report.  So please, tell me what you think.
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« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2004, 10:50:34 pm »

Neat deck! I like it a lot. It seems a little like 7/10 split, but with a more controlling feel to it. I also like the damping matrices in the sideboard, which I suggested in a thread might be good in a workshop deck (you probably thought of it yourself though). I noticed that you lost in the top 8 to a slaver deck; how is this deck's matchup against it? (drain and workshop)
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« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2004, 10:58:55 pm »

As far as we can tell, Reflection and Short Bus developed this deck independent of each other (see the link at the top of the report). There are some differences, however. BFD plays Volcanic Islands and more mana denial elements.

As for the Control Slaver matchup, BFD usually wins. As for the drain slaver matchup, well, I have no idea.
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« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2004, 11:08:01 pm »

Quote from: The Atog Lord
As far as we can tell, Reflection and Short Bus developed this deck independent of each other (see the link at the top of the report). There are some differences, however. BFD plays Volcanic Islands and more mana denial elements.

As for the Control Slaver matchup, BFD usually wins. As for the drain slaver matchup, well, I have no idea.

Wait, what? Shouldn't one of those be workshop slaver?
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« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2004, 11:09:38 pm »

Oh yea, and I forgot to mention that this tourney was for a Time Walk.

Quote from: Alfred
Neat deck! I like it a lot. It seems a little like 7/10 split, but with a more controlling feel to it. I also like the damping matrices in the sideboard, which I suggested in a thread might be good in a workshop deck (you probably thought of it yourself though). I noticed that you lost in the top 8 to a slaver deck; how is this deck's matchup against it? (drain and workshop)


Thanks.

This does have similarities to 7/10, but it plays out entirely different.  I'd also like to take this opportunity to say Gilded Lotus is a liability in this deck.

Control Slaver is very favorable, and in testing BFD would smash it, but things just didn't work out in the top 8 match.  It happens.

Shop Slaver isn't a pushover, but still very manageable.  That's generally pretty even, on the whole.

And Drain Slaver is an autoloss.  Ever since it's name changed, I have been unable to touch it.
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« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2004, 02:04:02 am »

I really like this deck. Particularly, the idea of locking the game by sundering the opponents lands, and also having the strip effects.

Questions:

Taking into account how important it is to resolve welder or first turn sphere, why not keep the brainstorms and add FoW? Have you tried fetches? You can put them out, weld the titan, and then grab a volcanic. Also, if you are looking for alternate draw, have you tried intuitions and DA? If you keep the lands that make 2 colorless, intuition could be some good.

You don't run gilded, so why 4 chalice? Does chalice for two come out soon enough?

Gorilla shaman taken out of the board? Why?


I would very much like to see a sphere/titan deck test favorably.
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« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2004, 08:05:01 am »

I'm glad to see other people using Titans.  Several builds are floating around right now, and I think its fun to see them go in different directions.  There is just something really fun about playing a huge guy...
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« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2004, 09:12:39 am »

Why didn't you tell me like two weeks ago that you were missing some key cards?  We could have worked something out.

Congrats on your finish, although I know you wanted that Walk.

This deck has so many weapons that adding FoW really wouldn't do much good for you.  Protection?  Nah, just throw the bombs.  Smile
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« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2004, 09:20:20 pm »

Quote from: Machinus
Taking into account how important it is to resolve welder or first turn sphere, why not keep the brainstorms and add FoW? Have you tried fetches? You can put them out, weld the titan, and then grab a volcanic. Also, if you are looking for alternate draw, have you tried intuitions and DA? If you keep the lands that make 2 colorless, intuition could be some good.


The reason I don't use Force is threefold:
1) Nothing to cut.
2) Bad synergy with Trinisphere.
3) I have a low blue spell count, and I don't want to be pitching those crucial blue spells to Force anyway.  

If you can solve those 3 problems, I'd be more inclined to use it.

Fetch vs. Reef is mostly a matter of mana screw.  Using a fetch means you are less likely to draw more land, which is crucial if you're facing mana denial.  Also, keep in mind that Stifle sees play in a lot of decks, especially those same mana denial decks.  I will say though I'm not overly concerned about my mana sticking around if I Weld in a Titan, so I'm not sure that makes a difference.  Fetches do deserve more attention with Brainstorm, I'll admit, but I don't think the lack of shuffling was the biggest mark against Brainstorm.  On thinking about it more, it's more like you would rather just drop something on the board instead.  This deck is all about impact.  

I'm not going to be running Intuition/DA.  I already have plenty of spells at the 3 colored mana slot, and with Trinisphere all my spells cost 3 mana.  Draw-7's don't work for this reason, since if you get to 3 mana you cast Thirst, and then you have plenty of stuff to do with your colored mana that you don't want to draw-7.

Quote
You don't run gilded, so why 4 chalice? Does chalice for two come out soon enough?


Um.  Anytime you've gotten Gilded Lotus out means you've already had the ability to play Chalice for 2, unless you meant something else.

But yes, Chalice for 2 comes out quite frequently.  It happened in two games, but there were other times I could've done the same thing if it weren't for my love to play first turn Trinisphere instead, or in one case I played Chalice for 1 that could have been a 2.

Quote
Gorilla shaman taken out of the board? Why?


Because Damping Matrix is better.  An example of this in my report where Shaman did nothing but Matrix would have clearly swung the game heavily in my favor.  

Let me take this opportunity to explain how I SB against Shop Slaver:

-4 Goblin Welder
-4 Trinisphere
-3 Chalice of the Void

+3 REB
+4 Damping Matrix
+4 Rack and Ruin

Following this SB plan, Matrix hits 1 of my cards (Jar), and nullifies 8 of my opponent's primary cards (4 Welder, 3 Mindslaver, 1 Jar) or more if they bring in Shamans.  It also takes Trinispheres slot in keeping the artifact count up for Shop to still be very effective.

REB is useful for stopping card-draw or at being a 2:1 against Force.  The best part is, it usually stops both since Slaver can't pitch much aside from card-draw to Force.

Now this may look bad in that I'm siding in 11 cards, but I don't want to convey the impression that Slaver is a difficult match.  In fact, this deck has a very good game against Slaver.  The reason I SB in that many cards is because I have nothing better to do with my SB slots.  I'm dead serious too.  

Quote
I'm glad to see other people using Titans. Several builds are floating around right now, and I think its fun to see them go in different directions. There is just something really fun about playing a huge guy...


Not only is it fun, but perhaps there's also something game-winning about playing a huge guy...

Quote
Congrats on your finish, although I know you wanted that Walk.


Thanks.  

Well, I already have a Walk so it wasn't too important for me to win that specifically.  I didn't care what the prize was, I was really hyped and excited since it took a lot of time and effort to get all the cards back again, and finally get a chance to play them in a tournament.
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« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2004, 10:04:15 pm »

I did forget to congratulate you on 'rocking the swiss,' the report was enjoyable. The lack of half your spheres didn't seem to stop you.


I can see how matrix would be superior to shaman for the problems it addresses; I was just curious how you felt about losing the shaman. I haven't played with titans so I don't know if my instinct is correct that they are sufficient disruption.

Also, the fetch issue is not really an issue. You were complaning about brainstorm so I wanted to see if you had tried this. Avoiding stifle is a good idea. I also meant to suggest that you could simply find space for one intuition - I actually don't know why you haven't fit one in already, it seems like it would be a very solid addition to the maindeck.

The FoW issue is the only one that I have trouble with. The issue of deck space is trivial compared to the other two you mention. There are going to be a lot of scenarios where you won't resolve turn 1 sphere. This could be due to not drawing it, not drawing enough mana for it, it getting countered, or going second. FoW can either push through your key threat when you are up against a deck thats packing forces (lots of hybrid control decks), or deny your opponent theirs when you are going second. Going second is a weakness that can be addressed well with force. I don't know if SBing FoW is sacreligious or what, but in a power saturated metagame they will really be useful. You went second against 3 aggro decks and win, but first against slaver and lose. It might seem to you that brainstorm was crap, but you would have drawn an addional land in a row without it. With +4 force, +1 Intuition or whatever configuration you wanted, there would be enough blue to support it. I want to bring attention to this possibility, not necessarily suggest that you should change the decklist, but I really do think it is worth considering.
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« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2004, 09:11:54 am »

Thanks.

Quote
I can see how matrix would be superior to shaman for the problems it addresses; I was just curious how you felt about losing the shaman. I haven't played with titans so I don't know if my instinct is correct that they are sufficient disruption.


For the most part, I usually don't play the mana denial game after sideboarding against Slaver.  I tried to focus on making the sideboarding technique as effective as possible when going second, and mana denial is a very difficult role to play when your opponent goes first.

Going first is a completely different matter, however, and I've been known to keep in Chalices to throw off my opponent's line of thought.  Going first, and without Welder, a Chalice for 0 or 1 are both quite strong.  Throw in Wastelands, and you can definitely play the mana denial game then.  I think Chalice does everything here you'd want Shaman to do, in that instance.

Quote
The FoW issue is the only one that I have trouble with. The issue of deck space is trivial compared to the other two you mention. There are going to be a lot of scenarios where you won't resolve turn 1 sphere. This could be due to not drawing it, not drawing enough mana for it, it getting countered, or going second. FoW can either push through your key threat when you are up against a deck thats packing forces (lots of hybrid control decks), or deny your opponent theirs when you are going second. Going second is a weakness that can be addressed well with force. I don't know if SBing FoW is sacreligious or what, but in a power saturated metagame they will really be useful. You went second against 3 aggro decks and win, but first against slaver and lose. It might seem to you that brainstorm was crap, but you would have drawn an addional land in a row without it. With +4 force, +1 Intuition or whatever configuration you wanted, there would be enough blue to support it. I want to bring attention to this possibility, not necessarily suggest that you should change the decklist, but I really do think it is worth considering.


I understand where you're coming from, but I don't think I subscribe to it.

What I was aiming for with this deck is to have a lot of bombs.  Having lots of bombs enables you to keep playing things, and if your opponent cannot deal with them then they lose.  Adding in Force means you must take out other bombs in your deck, which disrupts the flow of dropping bombs.  That is why I feel the deck space issue is a very important one, since what game-winning spell do you cut for Force? ;)

It should be noted that if I go second in a SB'ing game Trinisphere oftentimes comes out, so I don't think SB'ing Force is that bad of an idea.  But even when going 2nd, Trinisphere is still game-breaking.  At the very least it's usually a Time Walk.  I'll try and fool around with some ideas though.
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« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2004, 09:22:18 am »

Could Standstills replace the Brainstorms?

You are, after all, typically bringing the Titan in from the Graveyard via Welders...

Dave.
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« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2004, 10:13:18 am »

I doubt it, because Standstill doesn't fit the deck's proactive nature or help smooth out opening draws like Brainstorm does.
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« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2004, 10:35:48 am »

What's with cutting good cards for putting bad cards instead?  Confused
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« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2004, 02:03:29 am »

Congrats on the tourney!

We must have some kind of psychic resonance because we were looking into the same three things for 7/10:

1. adding trinispheres
2. adding wastelands
3. changing brainstorms for something else, or cutting them entirely

Damping matrix is an interesting sideboard choice.

I was also considering gorilla shaman main deck although karn serves the same purpose.

I'd really like to hear your reasoning behind why gilded lotus is bad.

Also was volcanic island ever a liability due to titan? I really hate playing some combination of 4 cities/gemstones/glimmervoids, but the potential for dis-synergy with titan seemed to override that. How bad is it?

It appears our decklists are converging towards an optimal workshop-titan build. It will be great when this deck is finalized and a tier one competitive archetype.
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« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2004, 07:31:38 am »

I don't see how the Gilded Lotus could be sub-optimal. It helps out your color you need so badly and gives you a huge boost to help play that Titan.
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« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2004, 10:22:58 am »

Quote
Could Standstills replace the Brainstorms?

You are, after all, typically bringing the Titan in from the Graveyard via Welders...

Dave.


In addition to what was said before, Standstill also is a 2cc spell.  Considering there's only one card in the deck at 2 mana, 2 is Chalice's favorite number which is a strike against Standstill.

Quote
I was also considering gorilla shaman main deck although karn serves the same purpose.


Well, going first you have both Trinisphere and Chalice set for 0, which effectively do the same thing as Shaman.  

Going second.  I wanted to start a discussion on this subject but never got around to it, so how effective is mana denial when going second?  You're not only behind on tempo from the beginning, but you just don't have enough resources to overcome that loss of tempo and still manage to attack their mana base.  Anybody have any thoughts on this subject?  I find it interesting and would like to hear what other people think about it.

Quote
Also was volcanic island ever a liability due to titan? I really hate playing some combination of 4 cities/gemstones/glimmervoids, but the potential for dis-synergy with titan seemed to override that. How bad is it?


It didn't come up in the tourney, but in testing I oftentimes end up nuking my own land with it.  With that being said, my basis for comparison is how often do I lose because of a missing Volc after getting Titan on the board vs. how often do I lose because of City/Gemstone/Glimmervoid.

I think Titan alone goes a long way towards winning, and a missing land isn't really going to mean much at that point.

Quote
I'd really like to hear your reasoning behind why gilded lotus is bad.


Alright, I saved this for last because it's probably going to be the most controversial.

In order to include Trinisphere, it is best to include Strips to further increase the lock.  A lone strip makes it such that they need 4 land to recover, and the jump from 3 to 4 land is pretty far especially considering they don't have an out like Brainstorming into more land.  I don't see where Gilded Lotus would fit in the mana base if Strips were included.

Wastelands are also dangerous.  Trinisphere and Gilded Lotus both compete for a Workshop's first use.  Due to Wasteland, you generally can only count on getting one use.  Let's say you are a deck using Trinipshere.  You play first turn Shop, Trinisphere, and they waste it.  Your Gilded Lotus is looking pretty bad right about now.  Compare that to 7/10, which would do something like land, 2nd turn Mox, Shop, Lotus.  But that situation also eliminates the possibility of a turn 1 Trinisphere.  In other words, I think the two cards are at odds with each other, and I don't think it's safe to put them in the same deck.

Another thing to note is that Gilded Lotus gives your opponent more ways to mana screw you.  Lotus is generally a 2nd turn play, so you have to take into account that Tog would possibly have UU up, or that Fish has Null Rod, or that the other deck can untap and Rack and Ruin your mana.  

This is more of a synergy issue, but 7/10 can play out by dumping a ton of mana, then drawing more and going to town.  Trinisphere means you can't dump your hand after a draw-7, your draw is more expensive, and since Trinisphere takes up the slots of other draw spells, it means you're less likely to combo off.  This means Gilded Lotus's ability to power a combo hand is very minimal.

It should also be noted that this deck likes to take an aggressive stance, and playing a spell that nets you -2 mana the turn you cast when you would rather be dropping impact spells means it is still not exactly a mandatory inclusion.

Lastly, I think if Brainstorm is cut for some other card, that would also reduce the color requirements making Lotus's color fixing less attractive.

Of course, I could be wrong, but whenever I sit down and do a comparitive analysis with the card, the issues I layed out above come up and frequently cost games.  While the individual reasonings may not be overly convincing, the number of reasons to not run Lotus do add up, in my opinion.
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« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2004, 12:17:55 pm »

I play Workshop Slavery and I have done absolutely zero testing with the Titan, so please take my advice as such.
Quote from: Rico Suave
In addition to what was said before, Standstill also is a 2cc spell.  Considering there's only one card in the deck at 2 mana, 2 is Chalice's favorite number which is a strike against Standstill.
Brainstorms were supposed to make Workshop Slavery consistant, however without fetchlands it becomes painfully obvious that a hand optimizer does not dig through your deck. How many times have you played a Brainstorm looking for a draw spell to only realize it will be at least three turns before you see one?  I can't think of a worse feeling in a game than knowing that I can't do anything relevant for two turns, it is just a downright sickening feeling that was coming up way to often in my Slavery deck. Of course I thought the fix would be fetchlands; however, there are just to few color producing lands for this to be an option. A timely Stifle could be a game ending play, not to mention, thinning your deck of lands that tap for colored mana is the last thing the deck wanted to do. So, that meant that Brainstorm had to be replaced by another deck smoother, but whatever it was replaced by must be able to dig though the deck. This is when Impulse came on the scene. It did exactly what I wanted, it smoothed out land drops, and dug for draw spells. It's only drawback was that it cost {1}{U}. While this is not really a problem in casting, it did interfere with the famous Chalice of the Void for two, but thankfully I didn't let this stand in my way of testing. After testing I found that Impulse was awesome in Slavery. Most times you have a clear choice if both cards are in your opening hand as to which is the better play, and every once in a while a turn one Impulse can find that turn two Chalice you were desperately hoping for. I have found in the games in which I did resolve a Chalice of the Void for 2 it is such a bomb having a couple of dead cards (Force of Will fodder) was irrelevant. Now I realize you are playing without Force of Will, but even still, in the games you want and resolve a Chalice for two having a few dead Impulse will mean very little. In the games you do not want or are unable to resolve a Chalice for two, Impulse will speed up your deck and make it very consistent.

I agree with Rico, in this deck Gilded Lotus is not needed because there is no Pentavus or Mindslaver that will require mana.(This is the man reason why I question Memnarch in this build) Wastelands are superior because you just want to ensure you can resolve spells against control decks. That is why the deck runs them in conjuction with Trinisphere. The deck's plan is not to grow a mana base so it can control the game, but rather it's strategy is disrupt its opponent so it can get a Titan into play ASAP and win.
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« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2004, 10:27:33 pm »

Completely agree with the above post.  After having constructed, fishbowled, tested and then played this deck in my local T1 tournament I definitely both love it and have some feedback.  First a mini-report:

My build of this for a ten proxy tournament (I own no power or 'shops, I r poor):

Land:
4 Mishra's Workshops
4 City of Brass
1 Shivan Reef (The number of Cities and Reefs would be switched but I don't own that many reefs)
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
2 Ancient Tomb
1 Tolarian Academy

Broken Mana Stuff:
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Lotus Petal (Would be off-color mox)
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault

Phat:
4 Goblin Welders
4 Sundering Titan
2 Triskelion
1 Platinum Angel

Draw:
1 Memory Jar
4 Brainstorm (Honestly one would be the other off color mox but I r poor)
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker

Other stuff:
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void

Side board:
3 REB
4 R&R
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Damping Matrix

Round 1 vs. Workshop slaver with Colossus and Jester's Cap (It's janky but it gets the job done)

Game 1: We do stuff and I eventually thirst into a Trisk and Titan with welder on the table.  Like an idiot I think hey, he won't waste my Workshop and I'll simply hardcast the big guy and proceed to throw Trisk in the yard.  Next turn he wastes my Shop and I eventually lose to Karn + Mind's Eye beatdown.

Side: -4 Welder -1 Titan -1 Brain Storm -1 Trinisphere -1 Chalice +4 R&R +4 Damping Matrix

Game 2: He gets the nut draw and completely ignores my first turn Matrix.

Results: 0-1 0-2

Round 2: I get the bye, I swing with boredom for the win

Results: 1-1 0-2

Round 3: vs. B/U/r Daggron

Game 1: Trinisphere + Chalice for 2 with two land in play = Trisk's go for the win.

Side: -2 Trisk -1 Time Walk -2 Chalice -1 Brainstorm -1 Titan -1 Trinisphere -1  +4 Tormod's Crypt +4 Damping Matrix

Game 2: His first turn he goes for the Buried Alive instead of the Duress.  I then proceed to play my Crypt that happened to be in hand and eventually go nuts, winning with no permanents on his side of the table.

I end up 4th but am satisfied with the deck's and my performance.

I chose this deck over the Meandeck and 7/10 split that I could have played for two reasons.  The first of which is that I have really bad luck with draw7's.  After playing Draw7 and Meandeck Slavery and continually losing to my opponent simply drawing better cards than me off my own draw7 I was already looking for something like this deck.  To me, this deck is what a Titan deck should resemble.  Not only does the additional land destruction from the wastelands and strips add to the disruption but the synergy between it, trinisphere and Titan were just too much for me to pass up.

A few thoughts:
- Brainstorm:  Since this deck does not run the fetches to shuffle after an unpleasant BS, it can sometimes be a somewhat underwhelming card to play.  However since this deck cannot really afford the possible disruption of its mana base by stifle and the like, I can't really justify their addition.  Cards such as Impulse, AK or other card drawing instants would be just as useful but either end up costing too much mana or simply not being as good as Brainstorm.  The only card I could see adding is Impulse but even then probably not as it conflicts with my desire to Chalice for 2 and is harder to cast than good ole brainstorm.  Conclusion: It might not be the greatest, but nothing's better.

-Trinisphere: Mainly I'm wondering what to do with this in the Workshop Slaver match-up, be it Meandeck, 7/10 or even the mirror.  I've done some testing with other workshop decks and haven't decided if all of these go out in favor of R&R or whatever else I want to bring in.  I definitely understand its role in the deck but with Workshop and tons of free artifact mana it never seemed to be as effective as I wanted something in that slot to be in this match-up.

-One card I keep on wanting to toy with is Lightning Greaves.  This is mainly because I like bad cards but would love to hear other people's thoughts on the card in this deck.

Otherwise I thoroughly enjoyed playing and building this deck and it will likely remain my preferred deck until I move out of my proxy 10 environment.
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« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2004, 01:36:33 am »

Quote
It might not be the greatest, but nothing's better


You could try Cunning Wish.
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« Reply #20 on: April 30, 2004, 03:27:52 am »

Cunning wish? How does that play a similar role at all to brainstorm? Brainstorm is for redundancy and flexibility early on in the game, NOT for answering threats or casting brokenness.

Besides, what are you going to wish for, fact or fiction? Brainstorm costs 1, Cunning Wish + target costs at least 4. He mentions that he feels that AK and Impulse are too expensive...and they are not tutors.
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« Reply #21 on: April 30, 2004, 08:07:42 am »

In my mind cards such as Impulse, Cunning, even FoF are way too mana hungry, but with Gilded Lotus are highly playable cards.  The idea behind this deck is that it doesn't need the lotus because it doesn't run said mana hungry spells to be able to attack their mana base even more with strips and then hose with Trinisphere.  I might try Impulse, it's the only card that I can think of that does what I want my Brainstorms to do.
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« Reply #22 on: May 03, 2004, 12:28:59 pm »

Quote
-Trinisphere: Mainly I'm wondering what to do with this in the Workshop Slaver match-up, be it Meandeck, 7/10 or even the mirror. I've done some testing with other workshop decks and haven't decided if all of these go out in favor of R&R or whatever else I want to bring in. I definitely understand its role in the deck but with Workshop and tons of free artifact mana it never seemed to be as effective as I wanted something in that slot to be in this match-up.


If going 2nd, board it out.  If going 1st, you can either side it out like normal OR you can keep them in depending on how you wish to allocate your SB slots.

Quote
-One card I keep on wanting to toy with is Lightning Greaves. This is mainly because I like bad cards but would love to hear other people's thoughts on the card in this deck.


Well, you can toy with it but it's not a threat by itself, costs 2 (Chalice's fav number), and there isn't anything worth cutting to put Greaves in.

Quote
Now I realize you are playing without Force of Will, but even still, in the games you want and resolve a Chalice for two having a few dead Impulse will mean very little. In the games you do not want or are unable to resolve a Chalice for two, Impulse will speed up your deck and make it very consistent.


I strongly disagree with the use of Impulse.  I don't care how you rationalize it, but running 2cc spells in combination with Chalice for 2 just doesn't work.  

Also, I've said this before, but the reason I don't like Brainstorm is not because of it's inability to shuffle, but because it has no impact.  Impulse has no impact, and this deck is all about impact.  

At anyrate, to best solve this Brainstorm issue, let me introduce you to the latest version of the deck:

Creatures (11)
3 Sundering Titan
4 Triskelion
4 Goblin Welder

Disruption (8)
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void

Utility (12)
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Memory Jar
4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Serum Powder

Mana (29)
4 Mishra's Workshop
2 Ancient Tomb
4 Volcanic Island
4 Shivan Reef
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
8 SoLoMoxCrypt
1 Mana Vault

SB:
3 Open
4 Rack and Ruin
4 Damping Matrix
4 Tormod's Crypt

Firstly, the REB's have been cut from the SB, since they are unnecessary against Tog.  This means you can SB in something else against Shop Slaver, or whatever.  

This build is a lot tighter than any previous build.  The latest addition has eliminated any random 1-of's (like a lone City of Brass, Memnarch, etc) which is very nice.

That latest addition, Serum Powder, looks exceptionally janky.  I'll admit, I thought it was janky too when it was first suggested, but I love it now.  Let me rationalize why it is used:

-This deck absolutely loves first turn Trinisphere.  Serum Powder makes that happen much more frequently.  
-This deck is about impact.  Powder is useful in giving you instant impact, since you don't even need to spend mana on it to optimize your hand like Brainstorm would require.
-It increases the deck's consistency.

Here is how it is used:

When examining your opening hand with Serum Powder, you are faced with 2 options.  Either you cream your pants looking at so much brokenness, or you don't.  If you have a broken hand, you keep because you have a broken hand.  If you don't, you mull and thereby reduce your deck of 7 non-broken cards, increasing the likelihood that you will draw your broken cards.  

A common arguement against the use of Powder is "if you keep a hand with Powder in it, you may as well have mulliganed."  While this is true in something like Belcher or Dragon, the difference here is that because of Workshop and Trinisphere, you can actually make use of Serum Powder.  Imagine this scenario:

First turn- Mox, Shop, Trinisphere.
Second turn- lay land.
Third turn- lay land.

You now have 3 mana to get around Trinisphere for your colored spells.

First turn- Mox, Shop, Trinisphere.
Second turn- tap Shop, Powder, lay land.  

The difference here is that Powder accelerated your mana development by a turn, which is crucial if you wanted to do something like 2nd turn Welder, 3rd turn Thirst, weld back Titan to fully lock them as opposed to 3rd turn Welder, oops too late.  Powder is also useful when trying to reach the 8 mana mark for Titan, even without Trinisphere on the table.

In other words, not only is Powder's mulligan aspect very effective, but it is still useful even in actual play.  It is exactly what this deck wants.
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« Reply #23 on: May 03, 2004, 05:29:04 pm »

One thing to note is that you gotta have big balls and mull aggressively.  Once you start to notice that you are mulling 4-5 times in a game and still starting off extremely broken, you will understand why:

Serum Powder >>>>>>>>> Brainstorm with this Workshop build as far as consistancy is concerned.
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