[Deck] WelderMUD - Can it be viable again?

[Corwin]

I am an avid WelderMUD player, and have Top-8'd at the last 2 Dream Wizards Vintage Tournaments (had to judge for the GP:DC Championships), but I am worried as I am not seeing anyone playing, or even talking about WelderMUD anymore.  The past 2 tournaments, my only "Bad" matchups have been in the mirror, and vs. Gay/R Fish.  Not to say that I beat everything, but those are the only 2 I consistantly lose to.  I have tested MeanDeck Slaver, and enjoyed the deck, but it doesn't quite fit me, even though I have always run 3x Mindslaver in my SB.  

I have been testing out some fat in the SB specifically against Fish, and had pretty much settled on Sundering Titan before GP:DC and the break-out performance of 7/10 Split.  I had even toyed with Maindecking them in place of Karn, but hadn't quite pulled the trigger.  Now with the upcoming release of Fifth Dawn, and the ideas of adding Crucible into WelderMUD, now is the time to start resurrecting this great deck.


WelderMud - Post Fifth Dawn Suggested Deck List:

//Creatures - 10//
4x Goblin Welder
4x Metalworker
3x Sundering Titan (or 2x Sundering Titan, 1x Karn, Silver Golem)

//The Lock - 17//
3x Sphere of Resistance (or Trinisphere, depending on your preference)
3x Chalice of the Void
4x Tangle Wire
4x Smokestack
3x Crucible of Worlds

//Card Drawing - 5//
3x Mind's Eye (or Grafted Skullcap, depending on your preference)
1x Wheel of Fortune
1x Memory Jar

//Mana Sources - 26//
1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Emerald

1x Mana Crypt
1x Mana Vault
1x Sol Ring

1x Tolarian Academy
7x Mountain
4x Mishra's Workshop
4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine

//Sideboard - 15//
4x Rack and Ruin
4x Tormod's Crypt
4x Red Elemental Blast (or Ensnaring Bridge, if you run Grafted Skullcap)
3x Mindslaver

--I know some people prefer Mind's Eyes to Grafted Skullcap (+ Ensnaring Bridge in the board), and some prefer Trinisphere to Spheres.  I wrote the decklist the way I prefer it, with the caviots to the options.  I think that Adding the Titans, gives some FAT to battle Fish, or any deck once the Null Rod comes down, and the Crucibles make the LD portion a bit stronger, to enchance the lock.

Any thoughts?

[Jacob Orlove]

You have no way to kill any Welders. Since this is a post-5D build, I'm not sure if Trike or Razormane Masticore would be better, but you should at least have something in the side that kills Welders. Razormane also helps the Fish matchup a ton.

Now, you obviously seem to like the SB slavers, but I never found it to have any synergy with the rest of the deck.

3 Chalice is almost certainly one less than optimal.

I never really liked Mana Vault. It's like a colorless ritual, although you can later weld it out. Have you tested Ancient Tomb?

Actually, if you're running Crucible, City of Traitors would be even better than Tomb. It might even be worth it to run a fetch or two, just to be able to get out all your mountains under the Crucible.

[jpmeyer]

Mud is like Slaver, except that it needs multiple cards to do what Slaver does with one card.

[Corwin]

Opposing Welders are a problem.  But Razormane Masticore isn't a viable option, because if their Welder is active, they just weld the Masticore out before upkeep, and no 3 damage.  I played Trikes for a while, but didn't feel I was getting the bang-for-the-buck out of them.  

-3 Mindslaver
+3 Fire/Ice

on the board - Not that I can regularly cast the Ice, but splittable damage is good.... and will help vs. Fish

I have tested Ancient Tomb, and I thought it was in there.  
-1 Mana Vault
-1 Mountain
+2 City of Traitors

[Corwin]

@jpmeyer - True, and that's why I have been running 3x Slavers on the board since Mirrodin, and long before the Slaver decks became popular.  But they are also somewhat dead vs. some decks, which is why I prefer MUD to Slaver.  Slavers vs. Fish or O.Stompy are mostly dead cards, unless you completely slaver-lock them out of another turn.

[jazzykat]

You are right that slavers aren't that hot vs. big o and fish but then the workshop slaver deck just runs lots of bigger dudes and runs their asses over. Oh and chalice for 2 vs fish almost equals GG right there.

Drain slaver has real problems with those decks actually and doesn't really have much of an answer except to rely on the brokeness of the deck and the fact that workshop slaver and tog (fish is a little harder for tog) normally beat them.

The best option I have seen to kill welders in workshop decks are obviously trikes which smash little dudes. Or to turn so many big creatures sideways that they have to block :B

[Corwin]

True, but under Null Rod, Trike is an over-costed 4/4 with no abilities.

As for Turn big creatures sideways... that's my question... what is the good Fat to battle those decks?

Corwin

[Suckamouf37]

Yes, but you're running 4 Workshops which makes Trike a reasonably costed 4/4 with no abilities.

Razormane Masticore and FTK would be my suggestions.

[Toad]

Thirst of Knowledge > Mind's Eye or Grafted Skullcap.

If you don't use good cards, your deck can't be good.

[jazzykat]

As for Turn big creatures sideways... that's my question... what is the good Fat to battle those decks?
Corwin

Well I like razormane masticore of course Mu ha ha, 5/5 first strike bolt a creature. I also have a spot in my heart for pentabus, you can do welder tricks to, and block fish's stupid flying creatures, and last but not least  sundering titan. Juggernauts also amuse me in that they can come down first turn off a shop and mox. You have lots of options find a mix that works for you and just make sure you have plenty of beat sticks.

Watch out for your mana though, with titan.

[Smmenen]

If you are going to make MUD, why don't you make it with Possessed Portal?

Steve

[Corwin]

@Suckamouf37 - Problem with Masticore is the upkeep, and that it is a bad choice in the mirror, as your opponent will weld it out before the bolt happens.  FTK could be good, but 4 non-workshop mana can be hard some days.

@Toad - I know Thirst is better, but I'm running Mono-Red... is going to R/U (with Glimmervoid, Shivan Reef, and Volc Islands) worth it for just 4x Thirst?  I'm not sure.  I have always liked the mono-red for the consistancy, and running Basics for my colored mana = anti-Wasteland for my colored mana requriements.

@jazzykat - Already talked about the 'core.  Pentavus are the same as Trikes, as they are turned off by Null Rod... yeah, it's a 5/5, but no stupid-Pentavus-tricks.dec.  I looked at Juggernaut, but with only a 3-butt, if Fish has an active Lavamancer, or 2 factories, it is a 1-to-1 trade.  I tried Sui-chi's for a while as it forced at least a 2-to-1 trade.  Titan gets aroudn that... and that's also why I always liked running 7 mountains, and cut the ancient Tomb, so it is only basics (Mountains).

@Smmenen - Portal looks cute, and would screw the hell outta Tog, Dragon, TPS/Neo-Long, but if I'm dropping an 8-mana artifact, I would think Titan would be better spent...  but it might be a good SB card against some card-drawing decks.... but probably better for U/R builds with Thirst and Gilded Lotus

[rvs]

I think Pyrite Spellbomb is a really great way to deal with opposing Welders. Although I never played WMud in a tournament, I did run a lot of testgames with it, and the Spellbombs were always very useful for that purpose, and would cycle if I didn't need them right away.

I think Sundering Titan is a poor choice for a creature, since unlike 7/10, you are burdening yourself with Tangle Wires, Smokestacks and sphere's, , so it's not like you'll have 8 mana available that easy. Without Thirst to throw it in the yard, I'd say Karn is a lot better as a finisher.

[Corwin]

@MoreFling - I had not considered Pyrite Spellbombs... I will have to try them.  And as for the Titans, you are correct that 8 mana can be difficult, even with Metalworkers, especially under a Null Rod... but by the same token, Karn isn't a finisher under a Null Rod... I am forced to wait to draw (and SUCCESSFULLY) cast Rack & Ruin.

[Machinus]

Echoing what JP said - seriously, you are running basic mountains! Theres thirst and force, and the whole restricted list...and mindslaver. Slavery > Weldermud. What about no welders?

[Suckamouf37]

is going to R/U (with Glimmervoid, Shivan Reef, and Volc Islands) worth it for just 4x Thirst?

Yes.  Especially when you add draw 7s and Ancestral and Slaver.

Slaver>Stax>Mud.

[jazzykat]

@jazzykat - Pentavus are the same as Trikes, as they are turned off by Null Rod... yeah, it's a 5/5, but no stupid-Pentavus-tricks.dec.  

....sniffle , I heard them slaver decks do stupid pentabus tricks.

Honestly, if your creatures are 5/5's and 4/5's and 7/10's short of rack and ruin there aint a lot gay/r is going to do about them.

[Corwin]

I am running Basic Mountains, becuase I am Mono-Red.  As for adding blue... what to cut to make room for Thirst, Ancestral, Draw 7's... etc.  I know a lot of people prefer Slaver to MUD, but I have found it a more consistant deck, and there are decks where Slaving them doesn't do enough (ie. Fish, Stompy, etc.), unless you can completely slaver-lock them out of another turn for the rest of the game.  

@Machinus - No Welders?  That's the lynchpin of the deck, and you can't even run Slavery without them, as you have no way to recur the Slavers themselves, let alone the Tangle Wire/Smokestack/Sphere

@Suchamouf37 - I do not agree that Slaver>Stax>Mud.  I started with Stax, then moved to Mud as the mana base is much more stable and consistant.  And having tested the hell out of Slaver, Slaver and Mud are no better than the other, as they are completely different decks.  


WelderMUD is a Red/Brown Deck, and that is what I am trying to bring back up to speed, to be competative with the other Tier 1 decks.  Taking the deck to R/U requires other changes, that morph the deck into Slavery or 7/10 Split.  I had played with Mindslavers and Sundering Titans to help out the deck in certain matchups, but I really don't want to turn the deck into Slaver or 7/10.

[rvs]

To come to Corwins aid and save this thread, everybody should stop saying how Slaver is better. It's clearly better, however, the topicstarter wants to keep playing wMud and make it as good as possible. If you have nothing better to say then "Slaver is better blahblahblah", please refrain from commenting.

@Corwin: The reason I said Titans are more prohibitive, and not really better is because under a Sphere, Wire and Stack, it's not like you have 8 mana available easy. 5 is a lot more doable. I don't think you should expect for Metalworker to be on the board very long for you to first establish your lock, and then throw down your fatty.
Also, Karn has much more synergy with the rest of your deck, and doubles as an overcosted Mox Monkey. I'd say he's a lot better than Titan in wMud. (Titan is actually only playable in workshop aggro decks).

There's no real solution to Null Rod, other than your Welders and your Stack. I'd say those options are good enough though.

[Erdrick]

I saw that earlier there was debate between using Triskelion, Razormane Masticore, or Flametounge Kavu to kill opposing welders.  I would like add the possibility of using [card]Duplicant[/card]. It is basically an expensive StP that can be welded.

If for a moment, you look back at the Stax/wMUD discussions before Workshop Slavery showed up, you can find some interesting things.  

First, just a few months ago, everybody and their brother was moving from the red/blue/brown Stax builds to the more consistent red/brown Stax builds.  And they were putting down anyone who still wanted to play their red/blue/brown build.  A few months later, everybody is adding blue back in.  Funny.

Second, if go even further back, you will find where Meditate was added to the red/blue/brown Stax.  Meditate was added as a superior replacement to [card]Time Vault[/card].  With no blue in the build, why not add Time Vault back in.  When the Smokestack and Tangle Wire are on the table, skip a turn.  Use the turn later to re-build the lock.

[Rico Suave]

First, just a few months ago, everybody and their brother was moving from the red/blue/brown Stax builds to the more consistent red/brown Stax builds.  And they were putting down anyone who still wanted to play their red/blue/brown build.  A few months later, everybody is adding blue back in.  Funny.

If you look at why those changes occurred, you'll notice the printing of two specific cards - Trinisphere and Thirst for Knowledge, two of the most powerful cards available for a Workshop deck.

Thirst is unplayable in MUD due to it's color, and Trinisphere is a better fit in Stax.  I'd say that those are very convincing reasons to go back to Stax.

[Toad]

Rico perfectly summed up why Stax became better than Welder MUD again.

If you still want to play Welder MUD, then Sundering Titan is a poor choice because It costs 8 manas. Note that my last Welder MUD build runs NO Karn either, only Welders and Metalworkers as win conditions (and SBed Triskelions if I'm down one game or for game 3). Karn is still the standard choice because It's a good blocker and eat moxens. Running no Karns allows you to pack more lock component and utility.

As Rudy said, Pyrite Spellbomb is a really nice tool. The only drawback is that it dies to Null Rod too. I remember seeing lists maindeckiing [card]Scrap[/card] in a Null Rod / Damping Matrix / Brown decks heavy metagame. Surprisingly, It's not that bad.

[Wollblad]

Both Mud and Stax have severe problems as soon as the opponent manage to play a Welder. Single handed it makes your lock strategy more or less impossible. Since decks with Welders becom more and more popular, the possition of Mud and Stax is weakened. Playing Mud or Stax you must remove the opposing Welder(s), so choosing either one must include MD ways to remove Welders. With a stronger card drawing engine (read Thirst for Knowledge), Stax will be able to fast enough find answeres to an opposing Welder while Mud will be slowed down by it's own lock components.

EDIT: by the way, I noticed your choice of Sundering Titan and Sphere of Resistance. Isn't the Titan expensive enough as it is?

[Corwin]

@MoreFling - Thank you.  I had been trying to re-direct the discussion to wMUD.  Thanks for re-focusing the discussion.  Also you are probably right, the Tital is just too expensive... unless I can discard it somehow... but it sure was an attractive option!  

@Erdrick - I had looked at Duplicant, as it is a great answer to Tog, and other limited-creature decks...  I might play with it again, as Null Rod doesn't turn it off, like Trike... and as a 3/4 it's decent vs. Fish.  As for Time Vault... I have played it and not played it... it's too much of a "win more" card to justify the room in the deck.

@Toad - Scrap? Interesting... I wonder if that is worth swapping the R&R... Too many time I haven't needed the R&R, or had to target my own Artifact to use R&R... I'll play with that as an option.

@Wollblad - Yeah, Titan + Sphere isn't that great of an idea... with Trinisphere maybe, but it was a reach.  Maybe just Fire/Ice on the board, with Duplicant/Trike/Razormane is the way to go.

So the current concensus is:
-3 Sundering Titans
+2 Karn, Silver Golem
+1 Sphere

SB:
-4 Rack & Ruin
+3 Scrap
-1 something else
+2 Fire/Ice

[Thug]

As far as playing MUD I would like to add that by far the best option to me seems to go back to the original mono-bown MUD. I know not much people have played with that deck, but it's even more oriantated about denial. Welder is cute, mountains aren't, and a first turn welder is a wasted turn without disruption.

Monobrown MUD is mroe explosive, more disruptive and more consistent. Welder is not all that hot versus Slaver decks (they just abuse your welder) so I see little reason to continue to play WelderMUD.

To give you a quick look at the latest version I have been working on:

4 Workshop
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City Of Traitors
4 Wasteland
1 Tolarian Academt
1 Strip Mine
2 Rishidan Port

5 Moxen
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Lotus
4 Metalworker

4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Trinisphere
4 Tangle Wire
4 Smokestack
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Null Brooch
2 Winter Orb

2 Grafted Skullcap
1 Memory Jar
4 Karn, Silver Golem

Sideboard:

Stuff like:

Damping Matrix
Jester's Cap
Ensnaring Bridge
Tormod's Crypt
Triskelion


Some explanation of odd choices:

4 Karn: Having one early on to take out opposing Moxes is priceless, and with 4 in the deck, this means stunning them often is enough to do the lethal damage, the hard lock isn't always needed anymore.

3 Port: Port is slightly faster than Petrified Field and has crazy synergy with Winter Orb, allowing a lock on your opponents lands. If you do this with something like a Metalworker out, you got the huge mana advantage.

2 Orb: Back to tha roots, these are amazing against tog, slaver to pretend them from playing there painfull 3cc cards. Combined with Wire you buy about 3 turns, with a Port you can stall them for the rest of the game.

2 Null Brooch. You have to play against these to understand their full power. If you manage to drop one of these after having disrupted them for about two turns, you once again won't need the hard lock again. This is also your best answer to Wish->R&R.
---

You might wonder what the advantages on this list are compares to Slaver. This deck IMO is better against Tog and various Combo-decks.
While it does have problems with opposing welders, the matchup against Slaver isn't all that bad either.

Slaver decks are pretty low on mana, and this is where you should attack them, if you let them enter the midgame and ramp up to 3-4 too quick they will get control of the game.

---

Welder-MUD IMO is too slow right now, and Slaver does everything Welder-MUD tries to do but a little better (although Welder-MUD stays better against combo).

Aside from the Tog/Keeper matchup you won't even miss the Welders all that much

Koen

EDIT: editted list

[rvs]

I don't think not running welders is smart. They provide undeniable flexibility and utility in your gameplan. It also doesn't have to come down turn1, since you'd rather have a metalworker.

Also, saying not running Welder because of slaver is a good choice, is just blatently wrong. If you get slavered, you get wrecked regardless (they'll use YOUR lock pieces to wreck your board ).

[Thug]

Also, saying not running Welder because of slaver is a good choice, is just blatently wrong. If you get slavered, you get wrecked regardless (they'll use YOUR lock pieces to wreck your board ).

Yes, but without a Goblin Welder on the board, you won't get totally locked. There's really not that much for them too abuse.

You shouldnt already have used your Wastelands.
So aside from topdecking a wasteland are something different the best they can do is sacrifice you most threatening permanents to your smokestack (if you even have one). And possible they can destroy a Mox, but this all does not end your game, where having a welder on the board does.

You want to be casting Sphere's first turn, not welders. You have to understand that this deck is all about disruption and while Welder can be useful as a disriptive tool from time to time, it's slowing down your deck in two ways.

Not running Welder allows the use of at least 6 more lock pieces, which makes the deck a lot more consistent and gives it the speed it needs to stand a change against other decks.

In the sideboard you will off course have to place some good tools against opposing Welders (and shamans for that matter). And not running welders also allows to to (ab)use Damping Matrix.

On Damping Matrix, it does shut down your Karn, but this shouldnt matter all that much. It's mainly there against Slaver, and after resolving it, you should have stopped your opponent from any change of getting their fatties into play. If they reach 7 mana anyway your deck failed and you deserve to lose the game.

Koen

[Smmenen]

I think welder mud should run Possessed Portal.

How would you incorporate it in Koen?

Steve

[DEA]

possessed portal is the kind of card that'll change an entire archetype imo, much as trinisphere made trinistax
it's a hardlock all on it's own, and the opponent has only ONE window with which to break out, ie, the next turn
the problem is the 8cc
without welders, even having discard outlets like null brooch and skullcap don't help with it
that leaves hardcasting it
if you can cast it without being drained or fow, odds are, it'll just be a win more card
ergo, i don't think it'll fit in monobrown mud

my 2 cents

*edit* sorry, wasn't thinking about weldermud

[Corwin]

@Smennen - Possessed Portal looks awsome for WelderMUD, but I'm not sure what to cut for it?  Put it in place of the Crucible?  Or drop to 3x of all the lock parts?  I'm not sure where to fit it.

Possessed Portal is an awsome addition to the lock, but it also makes me fondly remember when WelderMUD was running Winter Orb... that would be a VERY nasty combo, but unlikely to ever get played together, without welding something.

My concern is that the Portal looks great, but at 8 mana, it would almost have to be Welded in, and WelderMUD doesn't have the discard method, unless you move to R/U, but then you are at the Slaver or 7/10 engine again.  Wheel of Fortune and Memory Jar are the only ways to discard the Portal to weld it back into play.  Thoughts?