[Deck] WelderMUD - Can it be viable again?

[WildWillieWonderboy]

Part of making a deck competitive is to make sure everyone's talking about the same deck. Here's a list from morphling.de:

MUD sixth place by Gigi Buonaiuto (Barcelona 16.05.04)

Lands (19):
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Workshop
3 Petrified Field
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Wasteland

Artifact Mana (12)
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
4 Metalworker
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring

Whatnot (28)
1 Memory Jar
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Smokestack
4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Sundering Titan
4 Tangle Wire
4 Trinisphere
3 Triskelion
3 Karn, Silver Golem

Sideboard
3 Damping Matrix
3 Defense Grid
1 Duplicant
1 Platinum Angel
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Tormod's Crypt
1 Triskelion

It would be interesting to see what differences there are between decklists, so if everyone could please post how their version is different like so:
MD: -3 Trisk, + 3 Mind's Eye
that would be great. (no need to mention that they like to play with 59 card decks over there...). This way we can find out about some tech that maybe hasn't been discussed so much. Also, please include a brief discussion of why you play these cards.

[MaxxMatt]

Gigi Bonaiuto played this deck in Italy, not in Barcelona.

Without Triskelions for Eyes, I found that the deck would be able to lock in the same way, but after a soft/heavy lock all you need is A BEAST to win.

The list you porpose, is the one that I force Gigi Bonaiuto to play with some minors change in the side due to metagame choices. IMHO, Karn and Trisk are one of the better option for a ControlMUDmonobrown

[AggressiveDude]

Wow I tested the italian deck and I can say its the best mud version I ever saw!
I played this deck and I found out that its is much more solid than welder mud in the current meta game.

I changed the sideboard a bit.I think that Jesters Cap is incredible in this deck even without the welders.You can remove the tog against hulk decks,the angels against keeper(I refuse to call it germbus) and against various combo decks you can remove the tendrils.Even against slaver you can remove the slavers!

ps:The missing card in WillyWild.. list must be the duplicant I guess.

[Bobduh]

I really like that version... Duplicant and Triskelion are a magical pair. However, I would like some sort of discard mechanism- if it's going to stay as monobrown as it is, I'd say Skullcap could fit in somewhere. Maybe two replacing a single Karn and Triskelion, since it will help you burn through to find a piece of fat quicker anyway. It also fits with the "running through countermagic with constant threats" approach, letting you find more stuff per turn. Still, I think that being able to slide big stuff past a force requires more than constant threats, and putting it directly into the graveyard is a must for that.

[Thug]

Sigh, for some time I have been trying to convince people that monobrown is really he way to go now and you haven't been listening and now you all act surprised at the decklist.

The only thing I like different personally is adding Lotus (but the decklist is only 59 card, so it could be missing  ) And -1 Field, -1 Titan, +2 Grafted Skullcap.

The sideboard still looks a bit wicked. Sword of Fire and Ice seems pretty weak with so few creatures. And the single Duplicant and Angel look a bit random too, I would rather see some Caps/Bridges/Keg etc there.

Koen

[Dr. Sylvan]

***SPEAK NOW UNTO THE TMD ORACLE***

Sigh, for some time I have been trying to convince people that monobrown is really he way to go now and you haven't been listening and now you all act surprised at the decklist.

TMD ORACLE: "Screw you all. I'm going to make a conscious effort to not name any of my children after any of you."

[WildWillieWonderboy]

@ all: well, I just copied the list as morphling showed it and I didn't want to speculate on what may have been missing because I wanted to avoid misrepresentation. Though since it isn't the gayness, yes it probably is missing lotus.

The monobrown plan seems alot better though, as it has more bombs and less opponent interaction. Since everything is an artifact, there's no mana trouble, more acceleration and quicker beats with Karn. Also, this allows for a maindeck Titan, because it can never kill any of your lands (unless your opponent has crazy Dream Thrush tech!   ) and it helps the oh-so-unfavorable tog matchup.

Can anyone think of a strong enough reason to play with colored cards? Though I regret the loss of welder, the Titan, pentavite, mindslaver, etc. tricks definately seem like win-mores rather than true win conditions and the more cards that directly threaten the opponent by themselves the better.

[Corwin]

@Willie - Goblin Welder.  Just the Welder alone, for me, is enough reason to keep the Red in the deck.  Resolving a Welder make counterspells a non-issue for any of the Artifacts in the deck.

[snachos]

@willie:  Not only is welder a very strong play but there is a variety of sideboard tech that is available to Red right now ... Artifact destruction such as R&R come to mind almost immedately.  Now i don't want this to sound like a flame( cause it is not ), because  I believe that the only colored cards that should be main are the welders, and possibly some good blue Power(eg not timetwister).  You would have to change quite bit about how the mana base would work but I believe that the change is well worth it.  

There are many ways that this deck can be built, many can be successful.  I just don' believe in bashing down a steel door with a battering ram when i can bust out my utility belt.

[WildWillieWonderboy]

@ Snachos: don't worry, clearly not a flame. Sure, there are good colored cards, but the "utility belt" approach involves the inclusion of cards that are less likely to be good because they're more specialized. Defense Grid works better with the deck than the blasts (because of interaction with spheres, Karn, etc.) and RnR can only be used in the mirror, because slaver just doesn't care, they'll drop more and weld it back. The strength of having artifacts in the board to bring in is just amazing because it helps you continue with your plan (establishing the lock) and doesn't allow the opponent to interact with the game as much. Also the monobrown plan is amazingly consistent as far as mana goes.

@ Corwin: Adding welder requires a lot of change to the deck to take advantage. For example, a consistent discard mechanism (i.e., more than two skullcaps), and artifacts that abuse it better, like pentavus and mindslaver. Another problem is that the hand to graveyard to weld in does not result in a net increase in the number of perms on the board, which makes it harder to win via Karn and harder to stay ahead of your stax and wires. Also, welder takes a turn to go online, is extremely vulnerable as a 1/1 and is just as vulnerable to counters as anything else, perhaps more so after SB Blue blasts.

It seems like adding a color is in effect doubling down on a few key cards to produce brokenness, which in turn increases the decks overall susceptibility to counterspells. just look at my previous posts and you know my opinion on that:  .

[Zelc]

and RnR can only be used in the mirror, because slaver just doesn't care, they'll drop more and weld it back.

Not true.  Destroying an early Gilded Lotus or Memnarch can easily be the difference between winning and losing.  Additionally, they won't always have the welder or something to weld stuff back with.

The strength of having artifacts in the board to bring in is just amazing because it helps you continue with your plan (establishing the lock) and doesn't allow the opponent to interact with the game as much. Also the monobrown plan is amazingly consistent as far as mana goes.

Of course, the mono-brown plan leaves you with less chance of getting back into the game if something, like Psychatog or Memnarch, slips through the cracks.

Adding welder requires a lot of change to the deck to take advantage. For example, a consistent discard mechanism (i.e., more than two skullcaps), and artifacts that abuse it better, like pentavus and mindslaver.

No... Welder just means that if your stuff dies, you can get it back at the cost of a mox.  It does not mean that you need to use a discard mechanism or artifacts that abuse it more (although you can add those if you want).  You will have stuff in the graveyard to weld back anyway.  If you don't, you've probably won or lost already.  Without Welder, opponents can just counter the most damaging parts of the lock (i.e. Smokestack or Trinisphere if you're going first), allow the others to resolve, and get out of it.  Besides, Welder has neat interactions with Tangle Wire and Smokestack and can allow you to lock your opponent with little harm to yourself.

Another problem is that the hand to graveyard to weld in does not result in a net increase in the number of perms on the board, which makes it harder to win via Karn and harder to stay ahead of your stax and wires.

Actually, you'd be surprised at how many times I've used Welder to weld out a Smokestack or Tangle Wire (or Sphere, etc.) on their end of turn to come out ahead.

Also, welder takes a turn to go online, is extremely vulnerable as a 1/1 and is just as vulnerable to counters as anything else, perhaps more so after SB Blue blasts.

Of course, they'll also have artifact destruction.  Welder gives your artifacts some protection against artifact destruction effects, including the game-swinging Artifact Mutation.  Welder can draw out counters for your artifacts.  Also, if your opponent's deck has stuff that kills Welder, it means that your opponent's deck has less stuff to kill artifacts.

[Thug]

Without Welder, opponents can just counter the most damaging parts of the lock (i.e. Smokestack or Trinisphere if you're going first), allow the others to resolve, and get out of it. Besides, Welder has neat interactions with Tangle Wire and Smokestack and can allow you to lock your opponent with little harm to yourself.

You got too much disruption and threats for your opponent to counter them all. Control decks can only count on max 2 counters if they don't get the time/mana to cast any draw spells, and a normal hand contains at least 3 threats.

They can allow Sphere and Wire etc to resolve, but this means they have to totally rely on FoW to stop your threats (and sometimes even FoW becomes uncastable), which just isn't gonna make it. So actually they are forced to stop some of your "weaker" threats to be able to stop the stronger ones later on.

Of course the decks still follows this strategy if you add welders, but you have to drop some speed/disruption to make room for red mana, and you have to drop other threat to make spots for Welder.

My last version of Welder-MUD only ran about 2 mountains, the rest of the red mana was provided by Talismans, which allow you to keep more 2-mana lands, and have better synergy with Metalworker. If you insist on playing Welders I would take talismans in consideration.

Koen

[WildWillieWonderboy]

and RnR can only be used in the mirror, because slaver just doesn't care, they'll drop more and weld it back.

Not true.  Destroying an early Gilded Lotus or Memnarch can easily be the difference between winning and losing.  Additionally, they won't always have the welder or something to weld stuff back with.

Right, but that's a specific situation in a specific match-up.

The strength of having artifacts in the board to bring in is just amazing because it helps you continue with your plan (establishing the lock) and doesn't allow the opponent to interact with the game as much. Also the monobrown plan is amazingly consistent as far as mana goes.

Of course, the mono-brown plan leaves you with less chance of getting back into the game if something, like Psychatog or Memnarch, slips through the cracks.

That's just it: welder is part of planning for failure rather than attempting to go ahead with your own game plan, which will not work against decks with the faster clock and counters (tog).

Adding welder requires a lot of change to the deck to take advantage. For example, a consistent discard mechanism (i.e., more than two skullcaps), and artifacts that abuse it better, like pentavus and mindslaver.

No... Welder just means that if your stuff dies, you can get it back at the cost of a mox.  It does not mean that you need to use a discard mechanism or artifacts that abuse it more (although you can add those if you want).  You will have stuff in the graveyard to weld back anyway.  If you don't, you've probably won or lost already.  Without Welder, opponents can just counter the most damaging parts of the lock (i.e. Smokestack or Trinisphere if you're going first), allow the others to resolve, and get out of it.  Besides, Welder has neat interactions with Tangle Wire and Smokestack and can allow you to lock your opponent with little harm to yourself.

Redundancy is bad reason to add a color (get back stuff that died=redundancy) because +colors=-consistency and redundancy w/o consistency= bad. The only way to balance this out is to add broken welder tricks.

Another problem is that the hand to graveyard to weld in does not result in a net increase in the number of perms on the board, which makes it harder to win via Karn and harder to stay ahead of your stax and wires.

Actually, you'd be surprised at how many times I've used Welder to weld out a Smokestack or Tangle Wire (or Sphere, etc.) on their end of turn to come out ahead.

True, lock juggling is a valid point.

Also, welder takes a turn to go online, is extremely vulnerable as a 1/1 and is just as vulnerable to counters as anything else, perhaps more so after SB Blue blasts.

Of course, they'll also have artifact destruction.  Welder gives your artifacts some protection against artifact destruction effects, including the game-swinging Artifact Mutation.  Welder can draw out counters for your artifacts.  Also, if your opponent's deck has stuff that kills Welder, it means that your opponent's deck has less stuff to kill artifacts.

Having the lock parts in play will give you the best protection possible. Mutation is not a problem considering that you will most likely have chaliced for two or three vs. tog. Yes, welder does require them to spread kind of thin, but I still think that the cards you would have instead of welder would be better because they probably won't have enough artifact destruction anyway.

[Bobduh]

The thing is, in this version there are still cards you'd probably want to choose a welder over- right now, I'd say it's the set of Sphere of Resistances (or Trinispheres, but we're not going to go into that argument here). 4 Spheres is generally sufficient, and being able to juggle end-of-turn tricks to skip upkeep pain is well worth the loss of one extra casting cost- it rejuvenates all your Tangle Wires (which generally end up tapping more than one mana source anyway), lets you turn moxen into any previously countered threat, and is simply a necessary choice to make this deck control the game in an entirely non-symetrical way.

[Thug]

4 Spheres is generally sufficient

Oh so wrong,

you don't want to cast Welder first turn, it's like a time walk for your opponents since you should have dropped a sphere instead. As I said before, you might get away running only 7 spheres if your having trouble fitting in the eight one, but don't run any less, it weakens the deck much more than any number of goblin welders can make up for.

Koen

[WildWillieWonderboy]

1) Should Crucible be played in MUD over petrified field?
2) If so, does anything else need to be taken out to make room and avoid mana problems?
3)If so, what?

[Zelc]

**All arguments below assume the Barcelona 6th Place Deck by Gigi Buonaiuto posted on the 5th page by WildWillieWonderboy**

You got too much disruption and threats for your opponent to counter them all. Control decks can only count on max 2 counters if they don't get the time/mana to cast any draw spells, and a normal hand contains at least 3 threats.

That's true, but they don't depend only on counters to kill your threats.  For example, Tog can board in Oxidizes, Artifact Mutations, and Rack and Ruins.  Note that the following scenario will apply even if you played some random other things during these turns, except if you played a Sphere of Resistance and they were holding Rack and Ruin (slows them a turn, but they can play mana artifacts), which or if you played a Chalice hitting the artifact destruction in their hand (which is somewhat unlikely because they have some at 1, 2, and 3 cc).

Suppose you go first and play a turn 1 Trinisphere, a turn 2 Tangle Wire, and a turn 3 Smokestack.  If they didn't counter the turn 1 Trinisphere, they could still play a third land, which'll allow them to cast some random artifact destruction on the Smokestack during their next upkeep (assuming, of course, that you don't destroy one of their lands somehow).  This means you're left with a Trinisphere when they have three mana and a Tangle Wire that's fading away.  Even if you play another lock part the next turn, it may not be enough to stop the leakage of spells.  It gets worse if they're going first, and drop moxen.  This would allow them to play a Psychatog, and that's really bad, since you don't play REBs.  If you played a turn 1/2 Welder and they didn't counter it, you could weld back the Smokestack and later refresh the Tanlge Wire to keep them under some kind of lock pressure.

Also, playing 4x Welder means you don't have to play a different win condition other than maybe a Karn in the SB for the 0-1 games.

WildWillieWonderBoy:
On RnR: RnR works almost in every situation against artifact decks baring it getting countered, or the artifact deck having multiple active Welders in play.  At the very worst, RnR can kill mana artifacts and maybe manascrew these decks.  RnR can kill artifacts in response to a Welder activation or deprive the artifact deck of Welder fodder.  RnR can also buy you time and/or save your rear by killing opposing threats/bombs.  Remember, RnR kills two artifacts, which means you'll be coming ahead on card advantage and permanents count advantage.  Oh, and RnR takes out Null Rod (which can slow you down even if it doesn't wreck you) and Nevynirral's Disk (if Landstill is in your meta).

On consistency: You could take out 2 City of Traitors, 3 Petrified Fields, and an Ancient Tomb for 6 Mountains (or two Ancient Tombs if you want 7 Mountains, but I think the old lists played 6).  This would give you 7 permanent sources of R and the Black Lotus.  You'd lose out on three 2 mana lands and increase your vulnerability to Wastelands, which will impact consistency.  However, Petrified Fields are a tempo loss of one turn, which this deck may not be able to afford.  Additionally, Goblin Welders can double as "mana acceleration" by getting back countered, or if your opponent plays Memory Jar or discard, discarded artifacts at the cost of a Mox or other random artifact.  Of course, consistency will take a hit, but I'm not sure the lessened consistency outweighs Welders and increased sideboard options.

On protection: See my analysis on Thug's post.  Your lock parts may not be able to stop everything, and one thing getting through can wreck you.

On Crucible: Crucible can be backbreaking against many decks if you draw a Wasteland or Strip Mine to go with it.  Otherwise, it serves as Wasteland protection.  You could try taking out 2x Karn and 1x Triskelion for 3x Crucible, or just 2x Karn for 2x Crucible.  You could take out all Karns and Triskelions (or maybe leave one Triskelion in and take out the Titan) for 2x Crucible and 4x Welder (or take out all the fat for the extra Crucible).

Finally, I do have to say that I'm not sure MUD/wMUD is a good option for the current metagame.  Many decks play artifact destruction.  Additionally, MUD has no backup plan.  If its lock fails, it will have a very difficult time getting back in the game (although Sundering Titan and Triskelions help).  Other decks may be able to pull out a random creature that wins in a short time or nullifies the opposing offensive (Psychatog or Exalted Angel vs. beatdown decks), a sweeper that resets the board (Pernicious Deed or Balance), or a totally broken card like Yawgmoth's Will to get back into the game, but MUD, for the most part, does not have these options.  Even a Titan may not be enough if the opponent has enough on the board to win, or enough mana to not worry about the land loss.

Unfortunately, MUD also does not have a way to assert its lock.  It has little or no counters, so anything that goes through its lock hurts.  It would be especially devastating if it destroys artifacts, or worse, destroys an artifact and creates tons of permanents.  If, by acceleration or answers, a sweeper gets on the board, MUD will have a very difficult time recovering.

MUD also has problems with getting the lock.  It has very few draw spells, and rarely do they get activated in the first few turns.  That means that MUD is very draw dependent, and it will randomly lose games to not having the right cards to lock an opponent.

Another thing is that MUD will only play first about half of the time.  The other half, MUD can do NOTHING in its opponent's first turn.  A couple of mana artifacts may make your lock useless, and combo can win turn 1.

For these reasons and the availability of "better" alternatives for artifact decks (i.e. Mindslaver or Modular), I think MUD is no longer a top tier deck.  However, it can still win, especially if Suicide-GAT becomes popular.  MUD may no longer be the top choice for the varied metagame, but against certain decks, it will shine.

[MaxxMatt]

I'm totally with Thug about the ENORMOUS potential that MUD have compared to WelderMUD.

It can be translated in:
1) More Speed
2) Maximum amount of Treats/Hate played in a single deck
3) Massive Removal/Lock/Fats Effect

Welder OBLIGE you to lower the number of land that  produce MORE than a single shitty mana and consequently OBLIGE yuo and your game plan to rely more on Metalworker to be quiety explosive.Of course FAR LESS explosive than any single MUD's build.

Welder OBLIGE you to lower the number of treats that HAVE REAL sinergy with all the "artifact plan". Welder is the Best 1/1 Red Creature in the game, and it is really a pain in a deck that CAN  draw cards and protect ITSELF at least a bit ( FoW ), buti IMHO, a MUD deck have MORE and MORE better matchup with all the deck agaisnt which any other WelderMUD build to well. And while WelderMUD can suck sometimes against a well Aggro deck, I'm sure that you CAN'T LOSE a single match with the last build proposed by me or Thug himself.

Anyone of the great number of spells that MUD abruptly resolve during a single or a couple of turns begin to function WHEN it resolve. Welder buy time to your oppoent and many decks simply can "Win" the turn after it resolve, not giving you the time to use a good old welder recursion of artifact to go to town.

Simply the BackUp plan for this deck are Welders ( WelderMUD ). If you analyze the MUD game plan, if the lock fail to win you the game, you have  8-12 fats that can do the same really fast.

Fast
Speed

are IMHO the better chances of the proposed MUD's build. They aren't a restricted and not open minded way to procede in a MtG's game. IMHO for an artifact based decks there aren't better option to procede to win rather than WINNING before the opponent can BEGAN TO WIN. From that point there are a lot less possibilities to go to town and win. Welder, in the approach of the game that I tried to give to my MUD build, aren't appropriate because they inherently preclude a MID and a LATE GAME, while you should be sure to win in the EARLY and MID game.
 

And the opportunity to be OBSCENING EXPLOSIVE during turn 1 and 2 is the best way to win on turn 3 and 4.


I think that Welder in a WelderMUD and the High_Density_Of_Treats in a MUD's build can be compared to the different role that Regrowth/Timetwister and Y.Will have in the modern control decks.

Both of them CAN do extraordinary things. Stretching the game with those 2 spells can be nearly equal than winning soon after a single Y.Will.

The difference is the time that your opponent have to recover from this bad position. Y. Will ( High Density of treats.... ) give you NO TIME to RECOVER. MUD do the same.

[Bobduh]

Crucible might be usable in control, but with the welding capabilities a deck like this has, I would almost always prefer the Sundering Titan. And putting it as more than a one-of is just ludicrous. In a deck that can already lock them down, it's better to have a finisher that also ruins their mana base- crucible is not a clock, and it achieves the same mana-denial aim as the Titan.

[AggressiveDude]

First, just a few months ago, everybody and their brother was moving from the red/blue/brown Stax builds to the more consistent red/brown Stax builds.  And they were putting down anyone who still wanted to play their red/blue/brown build.  A few months later, everybody is adding blue back in.  Funny.

If you look at why those changes occurred, you'll notice the printing of two specific cards - Trinisphere and Thirst for Knowledge, two of the most powerful cards available for a Workshop deck.

Thirst is unplayable in MUD due to it's color, and Trinisphere is a better fit in Stax.  I'd say that those are very convincing reasons to go back to Stax.

Why is Trinisphere better in Stax then in Mud?
Mud has a more stable mana base and more cards than have >3 CC ?

[Thug]

Why is Trinisphere better in Stax then in Mud?
Mud has a more stable mana base and more cards than have >3 CC ?

I think the point he was trying to make that it's the perfect card for the disruption spot in Stax. It's better there than Resistance simply because it's more effective and you're own spells often cost 3 already.

Saying it fit better in Stax is crazy, and I sure hope he didn't mean that.

Suppose you go first and play a turn 1 Trinisphere, a turn 2 Tangle Wire, and a turn 3 Smokestack. If they didn't counter the turn 1 Trinisphere, they could still play a third land, which'll allow them to cast some random artifact destruction on the Smokestack during their next upkeep (assuming, of course, that you don't destroy one of their lands somehow). This means you're left with a Trinisphere when they have three mana and a Tangle Wire that's fading away.

This example is not relevant since I can judge by the very little information given here that you play the deck suboptimal (at least in this example). Why would you cast that Tangle Wire on turn 2?, you already are sure he can't cast a spell on his next turn (since he doesn't play with ESG  ) and playing the wire will hurt yourself more than your opponent. If you already would had that smokestack on hand second turn (not unlikely) you should drop that. Than next upkeep you add a counter and then drop your Wire. This means they will never get a change to cast a spell before getting locked out be smokestack. If you draw a Skullcap, Karn, Trisk soon enough after you're wining the game. And even if you can't find one of these cards you can smoke your opponent down to zero permanents and then sacrifice your smokestack with your Trinipshere still out, this also leaves you in a very very good position.

But, I guess this is a little nitpicking, so let's say your opponent went first, and you play your stack on turn two, now he has the posibilty to cast artifact destruction, and yes, it will hurt. This is exactly why I'm trying to make clear that it's not counters you are afraid of, it's the artifact destruction. The good part is that decks often only have 2-3 of these cards (after boarding) and if you deny them the possibility to manipulate their library (brainstorm etc.) the changes that they will have such a card are pretty slim. On top of that you can often cut these deck of the right color pretty easily, or simply never let them get the opportunity to cast it.

You can't win all games you play, and you will sometimes lose games to early destruction, but thats why this game is about matches and not games, so as long as this doesn't happen twice in a row you're all set  

Also, playing 4x Welder means you don't have to play a different win condition other than maybe a Karn in the SB for the 0-1 games.

But Karn has soo many more uses, and it's not like MUD only plays Karn because it's the kill (you could do fine with just tje Trikes), Karn does soo much more:

It munches on moxes, sends lethal forces to the battlefield and throws its giant body in front of many attackers. It's not an obligation to play with Karn, Silver Golem, it's a pleasure.

(now wasn't that a nice sentence?   :lol: )

Koen

[IcemanX74]

I was looking at the discussions about titan's drawback (its being so expensive). If one wanted to play it, I'd suggest putting in the grafted skullcap.

Another thing, a reason people play WelderMUD over Stax is because of the stable manabase that WMUD has. Since WMUD is red/brown, would blood moon be a viable option in the deck or sb at least?

-IcemanX74

[BreathWeapon]

In general, I still don't think I'm strictly sold on the use of 8 Spheres over additional FAT etc. Are the two strategies effectively achieving the same goals by different methods?
 
MUD, unlike wMUD has the ability to become a beat down deck. That is one of the single most important reasons why MUD>wMUD. On top of that, wMUD simply doesn't have the Manabase of MUD and will take Mulligans because of it. Even more so, Petrified Field is an amazing threat itself. Even with Tempo loss, Shop/Waste recursion is brutal. Under a Trinisphere, it is game winning.

As far as the Draw Engine arguments go, I have to strictly disagree that Thirsts are > than Mind's Eye. In 7/10 and Slavery, Thirsts aren't used simply to generate threats. They are used inconjunction with Welder to circumvent Casting Costs. In order for these two decks to establish themselves, they need a Colored Source to stay on the board and 3 Non-Shop Mana. In order for this to happen consistantly, these decks included Gilded Lotus. So, in most cases your "Draw Engine" is interdependant on 3 cards coming together, Lotus/Thirst/Welder, to develop their game plan beyond Chalice of the Void and Trinisphere. In MUD, you have; Tangle Wire, Smokestack and FAT to apply pressure + Ancient Tomb and Petrified Field. MUD's Draw Engine doesn't HAVE to be as good, because it's significantly more consistant. Despite that, Mind's Eye is still an amazing card. On top of generating 1 additional permanent a turn for an active Stack, it will shut down your opponent's Draw Engine. What more do you want out of the card?

When making the comparison of Thirst>Eye in Stax, it's a slightly different story. Stax has major issues keeping U on the table for Thirst, and it is very susceptible to Wastelands (Shops and U Sources). You could call Thirst a "better" card, but it comes with its own opportunity costs to the Manabase and it isn't a lock piece like Mind's Eye.

And, for reference, I do know that Mind's Eye is not a strict Lock Piece. It's a Soft Lock, but in most situations that's good enough.