The Battle of the Banned Decks!

[Smmenen]

I need YOUR help!  

I want to run a tournament with at least 6 banned lists from the past.  

Long, GroAtog, and BBS are obvious.  Trix is also a top gun.  What else should be played?  The Balance deck?  Any suggestions?  

Revised List: 8/28/03
By Stephen Menendian

The Mana, a.k.a. 5 Lotuses, 8 Moxes(n), and 5 Rituals, and some land.
3 Chromatic Sphere
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
5 Moxen
1 Lotus Petal
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Underground Sea

Setting up and protecting the Combo
4 Duress
4 Brainstorm

Cards that Fetch cards that win:
4 Burning Wish
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation

Cards that Win:
1 Timetwister
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Windfall
1 Tinker
1 Mind's Desire
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Memory Jar

Finisher:
1 Tendrils of Agony

Sideboard:

Finisher:
1 Tendrils of Agony

Engines:
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Diminishing Returns

Control Hoser:
4 Xantid Swarm

All Purpose Hoser:
1 Balance
1 Primitive Justice
1 Simplify
1 Hull Breach
1 Regrowth
1 Vindicate
2 Seal of Cleansing

GROATOG:
Main Deck
4x Psychatog
4x "Quirion Dryad
4x Force of Will
4x Misdirection
3x Duress
4x Gush
3x Sleight of Hand
4x Brainstorm
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Time Walk
1x Yawgmoth's Will
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Regrowth
2x Merchant Scroll
1x Fastbond
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Berserk
1x Cunning Wish
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Black Lotus
4x Tropical Island
4x Underground Sea
4x Polluted Delta
1x Flooded Strand
1x Library of Alexandria

Sideboard:
1x Berserk
3x Submerge
3x Hurkyl's Recall
2x Smother
3x Naturalize
2x Blue Elemental Blast
1x Duress

BBS:

4 Morphling
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
4 Misdirection
3 Back to Basics
3 Powder Keg
4 Impulse
4 Fact or Fiction
3 Mana Leak
16 Islands
5 Moxen
1 Sol Ring ( Mana Crypt (can we add this in in retrospect? )
1 Black Lotus
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

HELP me with the other decks!

I need:
- A good Balance deck
- A Type One legal Academy Deck at its peak power
- A type one legal Trix deck at its peak power (this might be on Invitational 1999)
Anything else you can think of.

Stephen Menendian

[Dr. Sylvan]

Balance deck: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=sideboard/feature/20030604a
(FYI: I'm so quoted in the linked Sideboard article from back before I was a full member. Hehehe.)

Rack-Balance
Adam Maysonet, pre-restriction

4  Bazaar of Baghdad
1  Maze of Ith
4  Mishra's Factory
4  Plateau
4  Savannah
4  Taiga

3  Atog

4  Balance
1  Black Lotus
1  Candelabra of Tawnos
4  Chain Lightning
1  Chaos Orb
2  Consecrate Land
3  Disenchant
4  Lightning Bolt
3  Library of Leng
1  Mox Emerald
1  Mox Ruby
1  Mox Pearl
4  The Rack
1  Regrowth
2  Relic Barrier
3  Sylvan Library

Sideboard:
2  Circle of Protection: Red
2  Consecrate Land
1  Disenchant
3  Red Elemental Blast
2  Relic Barrier
3  Swords to Plowshares
2  Tranquility

I can't find a Type One Old School Academy list. The Tommi Hovi PT Rome list is easy to get, but that's Extended. Probably the T1 list wouldn't be that much different, though I imagine Timetwister would be involved.

[Smmenen]

Holy shit - that deck has Atogs and Bazaars!!

Ok, now I need a Formerly legal Academy deck at full power and Trix deck.  Anything else? Oh man this is going to be sooo much fun!!

Steve

[Dr. Sylvan]

http://www.wizards.com/sideboard/article.asp?x=INVITATIONAL9900/classicdecks

KAI BUDDE

4 Illusionas of Grandeur
3 Donate
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Pyroblast
4 Necropotence
4 Dark Ritual
2 Demonic Consultation
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Time Walk
4 Force of Will
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Timetwister
4 Duress
1 Mox Diamond
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Grim Monolith
3 City of Brass
2 Gemstone Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Badlands
4 Underground Sea
2 Underground River
SIDEBOARD
2 Hydroblast
1 Parallax Nexus
1 Wheel of Fortune
2 Abeyance
3 Pyroblast
2 Seal of Cleansing
2 Gorilla Shaman
2 Phyrexian Negator

Still no Academy. I'll try for a little while more before giving up.

[Smmenen]

ooohhhh man.  This is going to be a true battle.  I can't wait to see what wins.  Sadly, I predict the Balance deck will get creamed.

Was there ever a Doomsday or Dream Halls deck for Type One that was dominant?

Steve

[Dr. Sylvan]

Found one!
http://www.classicdojo.org/d984/dk1.981105jch.txt

4 Underground Sea
        4 Tolarian Academy
        4 City of Brass
        4 Candelabra of Tawnos
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Merchant Scroll
        4 Lotus Petal
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Sol Ring
        4 Urza's Bauble
        4 Mana Crypt
        4 Mana Vault
        1 Kaervek's Torch
        4 Vampiric Tutor
        1 Demonic Tutor
        3 Prosperity
        4 Stroke of Genius
        4 Force of Will
        1 Braingeyser
        1 Ancestral Recall
        3 Meditate
        1 Time Spiral

Of course the Balance deck will lose. It might never even get a turn, let alone resolve a spell!

EDIT: OMG I one-upped myself; this is from Zvi Mowshowitz.
http://www.classicdojo.org/b985/bos.981013zmo.txt

4 Hurkyl's Recall
4 Windfall
4 Force of Will
3 Mystical Tutor
1 Capsize
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Regrowth
4 Stroke of Genius
3 Prosperity
1 Braingeyser
1 Fastbond
2 Abeyance
5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
4 Mana Crypt
4 Mana Vault
4 Lotus Petal
4 Tolarian Academy
4 City of Brass
1 Gemstone Mine
1 Strip Mine

[BlkXplsn]

BBS needs the fact or fictions...

[Dr. Sylvan]

BBS needs the fact or fictions...

Smmennycakes forgets the most hilarious things.

[carlossb]

One of the best combo decks (many years ago...) now can´t be possible.
It was with Fastbond (4), and Storm Cauldron for Infinite Mana

It was when you could be with negative life....  (good combo times....)

[Jacob Orlove]

10 Channel
10 Fireball
20 Black Lotus

Or for real style:

22 Black Lotus
16 Timetwister
2 Fireball

[Dr. Sylvan]

Jacob always brings up the most inconvenient periods of Magic history, honestly...

[Jacob Orlove]

Jacob always brings up the most inconvenient periods of Magic history, honestly...

Alpha was awesome.

[Dr. Sylvan]

Jacob always brings up the most inconvenient periods of Magic history, honestly...

Alpha was awesome.

And I've got the stats to prove it!

[Smmenen]

Thanks for the lists Phil!

Now I need help in figuring out what other banned decks there are.

I didn't play magic from late 1996 to early 2000 so my knowledge of that period is pretty bad.

EDIT: I'll add slurpy to this list.

Steve

[Hi-Val]

Here's Vise Age, the autoloss for BBS:

Total Cards: 63                

Land (24)                      
---------
4 Karplusan Forest
4 Strip Mines                  
7 Mountains
2 Dwarven Ruins                
7 Forest

Direct Damage (12)
------------------
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Incinerate                  
4 Fireball
1 Channel

Vice Age Components (14)
------------------------
4 Black Vise
4 Howling Mine
3 Stormbind                    
3 Zuran Orbs

Creatures (10)
--------------
2 Llanowar Elves
3 Orcish Lumberjacks
2 Whirling Dervish            
2 Orgg
1 Shivan Dragon  (could substitute Jhotul Wurm if you're feeling nutty)    
           

Defense (3)
-----------
2 Jokulhaups
1 Crumble

[carlossb]

I remembered a list by Olle Rade played at one of the Invitational (97??).
At this time you could mulligan if your initial 7 doen´t had any lands...


5 Mox
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
4 Mana Crypt
4 Mana Vault
4 Barbed Sextant
3 Lion's Eye Diamond <--- you´re gonna like to see them, Smmenen

4 Black Vise
1 Snake Basket
1 Mirror Universe

4 Force of Will
4 Hurkyl's Recall
3 Prosperity        
4 Mystical Tutor  
1 Braingeyser
1 Recall
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister

1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Balance
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Regrowth

Lands:
4 City of Brass
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island

------------
I remember that in this Invitational they didn´t play "clasic" Type1: They had to have a deck with at least ?? cards of all expansions.
Anyway,    Olle Rade had a TYPE 1 DECK, and other bad-expansion cards (as those from Fallen Empires...) in the sideboard.

[colebert]

Prossbloom was the sickest deck in its day. If you want it I can find a list for it.

[Legend]

As far as Mono-Blue goes, this should help. Below is my winning decklist from the legendary NG Grudge Match Vintage Grinder. This reminds me of the good old days. Amazing, the passage of time - it was just such a different era in Type I. An epoch long gone. A lawless, unpredictable era, a time when true masters of their craft battled for supremacy over an arcane, clandestine format.  There were no outsiders. Just the true devotees to the cult of Type I.

The practice of the Vintage arts was an ancient rite, practiced only by the elite, knowing few. Now, everything is so standardized, so boring. There are no more epic struggles. No more classic showdowns. The law has come to Type I. The world knows about it. The secret is out. No more hordes of enraged Greek schoolchildren wielding croquet mallets. No more mobs of disenfranchised Romanian factory workers armed with flamethrowers and gasoline-filled water balloons.

The card pool is out of control. Metagames are broken down with pie charts, algorithms, satellite technology, and GPS systems. No one gets gunned down in the streets anymore. The restricted list is nothing more than a toy to play with, the old one quickly discarded in favor of the new flavor-of-the-month list. Things were so different back in the day. In retirement, I like to remember Type I that way - before things began to fall apart, when big business, famine, war, disease, drought, earthquakes, and locusts all came along, changing Type I forever. Hard to believe - the glory years, the boom times, the ancient traditions - gone forever. Anyway, on to the decklist!


LEGEND BLUE: (July 2001)


4 Morphling
4 Back to Basics

4 Fact or Fiction

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Counterspell
4 Mana Leak
2 Misdirection

1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall

2 Powder Keg

1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
 
19 Island


SB:
 
2 Misdirection
2 Powder Keg
2 Nevinyrall's Disk
4 Hydroblast
4 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Island



BUT WAIT, there's more! Here's my other banned deck....



LEGEND PURPLE: (December 2001)


4 Morphling
4 Dwarven Miner

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Counterspell
4 Mana Leak

4 Fire/Ice
4 Fact or Fiction
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall

1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire

2 City of Brass
4 Shivan Reef
4 Volcanic Island
9 Island


SB:

4 Flametongue Kavu
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Hibernation
3 Powder Keg

[LizardKING]

I would suggest WGD before the restriction of Entomb, which was a monster, the classical Necro-Donate, Fluctuator (Zvi Mowshowitz NY PT 99) or even Buehler's Jar deck. Most of historical banned decks are available at : http://thesanctuary.online.fr/index2.php3?rub=historique

[Smmenen]

Legend, you had like 3 different variants that changed from week to week at NG.  I remember becuase I was playing your deck simulaneously in testing with other decks.

I wanted to run the one with 4 Misdirections and some Kegs.  

Steve

[r_x_]

Here are few very old and quite fun decks:

Prosperity-Vice, Apr '97

2 Psionic Blast
4 Prosperity
4 Counterspell
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
3 Hurkyl's Recall
4 Mystical Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister

4 Mana Crypt
4 Mana Vault
4 Black Vise
1 Black Lotus
5 Mox
1 Sol Ring

1 Library of Alexandria
12 Island

SB: no idea...

Chris Cade's "Better Lucky Than Good!" Mana Crypt Deck, Jul '96

4 Disenchant
3 Armageddon
1 Balance

1 Wheel of Fortune

1 Regrowth

3 Arcane Denial
1 Timewalk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Timetwister

4 Icy Manipulator
4 Jalume Tome
1 Mirror Universe

4 Mana Crypt
4 Fellwar Stone
3 Sol Grail
4 Black Vise
4 Ankh of Mishra
1 Black Lotus
5 Mox
1 Sol Ring

1 Mishra's Workshop
4 City of Brass
4 Strip Mine

Sideboard:
3 Atog
1 Arcane Denial
4 Disrupting Scepter
2 Moat
3 COP: Red
2 Jayemdae Tome

I found them in my old notes some time ago. The Chris Cade's deck is blast to play...

[Legend]

-Steve-

You are correct, in the late summer & throughout the fall of 2001, as my unchecked rampage that had lasted for most of the summer finally began to meet with considerable resistance, I tried several new variants of Legend Blue, mixing up the number of Misdirections, adjusting the ratio of Powder Kegs to Back to Basics depending on the circumstances, messing slightly with the number of Islands, changing the sideboard from tournament to tournament, and even trying Impulse for a couple of tournaments later on. You can choose whatever variant you like best, but the earlier version (Summer 2001, posted above) would be my choice if I ever ran a "battle of the banned" tournament because of historical significance coupled with tournament results. But the choice is obviously wide open, and there is no one right choice.

I consider the version that I won the Grinder with (Summer 2001, listed above) to be the definitive edition of Legend Blue (much like the director's cut of a movie) - at least the maindeck (the sideboard changed frequently, on the day of the Grinder I obviously wanted to make sure I could beat Sligh). I would even throw the sideboard from that day into the same category from strictly historical & aesthetic points of view. There were a lot of excellent versions later on, but the list I have posted above brought me the most success on any individual day, and the most success on an extended basis supplemented with slight weekly sideboard adjustments.

So a big part of the reason I consider that version to be the definitive list is because I have the best memories with that list. Clearly, from a strictly practical standpoint, you could just as easily say that versions used later in 2001 were just as effective overall, but as opponents adjusted with an avalanche of hate, the newer lists were destined to never do as well as the original list, even with their own considerable merits. There is a lot of truth to that.

I played the original maindeck virtually unchanged from April until late summer of 2001, and at one point went through a period of 21 sanctioned matches with only 1 loss. You may have experienced different results with assorted versions, but those were my personal experiences for you to work with as you consider what list to run in your tournament. It doesn't matter to me what list you use, but those were my experiences. Again, though, the later maindecks with more Misdirections and other changes were not necessarily worse than the original configuration, and certainly had their own merits. Its just that the metagame had by then adjusted with a ton of hate, so it became harder to simply mow through people in the same way regardless of the merits of change. Legend Blue was dominant for its entire reign as king of the format, but the degree of dominance certainly changed during the year.

I'll also note that early on in the deck's development, I did try a couple of other minor differences, such as 21 Islands instead of 19, but I soon went down to 19 for the long term to accomodate the two Misdirections (lower land count was not that big of a worry due to immunity to Wasteland) and thats the way things stayed for most of the year.
 
Obviously you can always adjust the ratio of Powder Kegs & Back to Basics (that always seemed to be the biggest metagame consideration on a tournament to tournament basis), or throw in a couple of extra Misdirections, or do whatever you want with the list for your tournament, but as I said, I did best with only two Misdirections, & the maximum number of Back to Basics. That, of course, certainly had much to do with the environment I played in. As I said, later on, I adjusted to some changes in the way my opponents approached the matchup with me, and to some general changes in the NG Type I metagame.

So clearly more Misdirections were useful as opponents began to adjust a little bit. I wanted more Mis-D's to win increasingly difficult counter wars against Keeper (especially to force out an early Back to Basics). They also proved their worth against Suicide Black. Four maindeck Powder Kegs were mandatory in certain situations where I expected more aggro that usual, although the deck was so good that I could usually beat aggro simply by countering almost everything, then dropping the almighty Morphling to simultaneously play defense and win the game.  Powder Keg was simply a tournament to tournament metagame call. Overall, though, it proved crucial, even when called on from the sideboard. Finally, Impulse proved to be pretty marginal in my use, not terrible, but not really all that helpful.

I'll be interested to see which version you ultimately choose.

[xrizzo]

There was a brief period where Black Vise, Strip Mine, and Wasteland were all legal and unrestricted.  

It was only for a very short period, and everyone knew that Strip Mine was going to be restricted so I don't know if any formal decks exist from that period, but that sort of deck is something which should be considered for a contest like this.

I am not the right person to supply the decklist however - but if someone has an idea, that would be great.

[Smmenen]

Ok, we'll run your Summer build.  But I think Powder Kegs are going to be important.

Since we can't find a good Dream halls deck the competitors are going to be:

(all columbus people):

Me playing Long
Joe Bushman playing GAT
Kevin Cron playing Academy
Mike Lenzo playing Trix
Ted Dickeson playing Maysonet Balance deck
and Justin Shisler playing Legend Blue

We'll do this round robin style and write it up into an article.  

Steve

[Bahza]

I remember during Black Summer, this deck being very broken.

//LD 12
Strip Mine 4
Sinkhole 4
Icequake 4

//HD
Hymn Hymn I Win 4
Hypnotic Specter 4
Mind Twist 1

//Control
Nether Void 2
The Abyss 1
Nevinyrral's Disk 3

//Tutors
Vampiric Tutor 2
Demonic Tutor 1

//Mana
Dark Ritual 4
Black Lotus 1
Sol Ring 1
Mox Jet 1
Swamp 17
Lake of the Dead 1

//Combo
Necropotence 4
Mirror Universe 1

For those of you who did not play magic back then, 1996 was known as black summer because.... black was broken, 4 Necropotences is ridiculous.

This deck worked by using a Combination of Land Destruction, in the form of Strip Mine, broken when unrestricted, Sinkhole and Icequake, along with Hypnotic Specter and Hymn to gain advantage over your opponent.

Then using the brokeness of Necropotence, draw cards to find mirror universe. Before sixth edition and the stack that RUINED magic, j/k stack is good, you could necropotence down to 0 life and switch life with the mirror to win.

If this doesn't work then with all the LD, HD and Nethervoid, you could ride Hypnotic to victory.

I do remember some versions using blue to add power and force of will and I also remember some using other control cards, such as Icy Manipulator, Royal Assassin, and even Demonic Hordes!

As a note demonic consultation has better synergy with Necropotence then Vampiric Tutor, but I didn't like it because everynow and again you'd remove your Mirror from the game.

I made this from memory as I could not find a list so I did not make the sideboard. Although a couple more Abysses, Nether Voids and Contagion were iused.

Also I know for a short period Strip Mine and Wasteland were both unrestricted but I did not play the deck then so I did not include it.

All and all I remember this deck being ridiculously broken, and could only imagine how strong duress would make this deck.

[Jacob Orlove]

Ok, we'll run your Summer build.  But I think Powder Kegs are going to be important.

Since we can't find a good Dream halls deck the competitors are going to be:

(all columbus people):

Me playing Long
Joe Bushman playing GAT
Kevin Cron playing Academy
Mike Lenzo playing Trix
Ted Dickeson playing Maysonet Balance deck
and Justin Shisler playing Legend Blue

We'll do this round robin style and write it up into an article.  

Steve

You NEED jar in there. It is absolutely insane. They had to issue an EMERGENCY BANNING in type TWO just because that card ruined the format. No other card has ever caused that. It is even more ridiculous in T1--especially with unrestricted mana crypt and such.

[jpmeyer]

There never was a Type 1 Jar list though and it's unfair to build decks for the older time periods because we'd know mad more tech than they had then.

Also, don't bother posting any other decks in this thread unless 1) they are actual lists from the time and 2) they won't scoop to turn 1 combo

[Smmenen]

Compromise: if you can find a jar list from that time we'll consider it if it isn't too far different from the Academy list.  

Steve

[RoadTrippin]

Megrim/Jar was a pretty different animal.

Any thoughts on 4 entomb dragon?

[Jacob Orlove]

Here's the Extended version. Can you just add power, or would that violate the "rules"?

4:Defense Grid
4:Lions Eye Diamond
4:Lotus Petal
4:Mana Vault
4:Memory Jar
4:Mox Diamond
4:Dark Ritual
1:Megrim
4:Vampiric Tutor
2:Yawgmoth's Will
4:Brainstorm
1:Mystical Tutor
4:Tinker
3:Ancient Tomb
4:City of Brass
2:Gemstone Mine
3:Underground River
4:Underground Sea

edit: just so you know, I found this on a foreign site, but it had Randy's name attached, so it's probably close to optimal.