(discussion) the GAT engine

[Master Grinder]

We have seen a lot of arguments recently regarding GAT and the best engine to make it work, it can be seen in the forum about the place of red in the deck.   I really think this question can be discuss in a forum of its own.

At the moment, everybody is trying to determine if the AK/intuition is still a good choice, even if hulk has a better use for it, of if the new TFK/DA engine has replaced it.

So far, it seems that TFK/DA is the great winner, mainly because GAT cannot afford to run the AK engine in a field full of Hulk.  My only concern about TFK is that I find it to be a little too mana intensive and it doesn't pump my dryad as fast as I want it to.

Let's not forget the pre-restriction GAT engine using a lot of cheap cantrips.

Recently, after reading the comparative analysis of serum visions vs sleight of hand in the full member forum, I began to test this card in my GAT build ( not legal until fifth dawn )  Matt exposed the great synergy this card has with any deck using brainstorm.  That's when I started to add Lim dul's vault to the deck.  And when I was able to cast it, I just loved it.

those three card seems to work pretty well at the moment.  stacking the next 5 cards (making sure the top one is the one you want), getting rid of the undesirable cards if there is any (with serum visions), drawing those you want, all with cheap cantrips.   My dryads began to explode very quickly.  The main problem with lim dul's vault is the casting cost, while it is cheaper than say, intuition or TFK, it has two color in the cc.  But with a deck running 4-6 blue fectch in addition of 8 duals, it may not be that difficult to cast..

Actually, I'm not saying this engine IS the futur of GAT, I just wanted to expose this new engine to the community, Maybe we will find out after some times that this is pure crap, but maybe not.

so, here is my decklist using this engine

4 quirion dryad
2 psychatog

4 force of will
4 mana drain (could be counterspell, since I dont have lots of use for drained mana)
3 misdirection

4 brainstorm
4 serum visions
2 lim dul's vault
2 opt
1 ancestral recall
1 gush

1 demonic tutor
1 yawgmoth's will
1 merchand scroll
1 time walk
2 cunning wish

1 pernicious deed

1 black lotus
1 mox sapphire
1 mox emerald
1 mox jet
4 underground sea
4 tropical island
3 polluted delta
3 flooded strand
4 island

the sideboard contains the usual (berserk, BEB, 2 more deed, oxidize etc but is higly dependent on the metagame so I'm not putting it in detail here since my decklist is not  the main subject,  I just want to discuss the engine.

feel free to put your opinions on any engine this deck runs.

Thanks

[eddavatar]

Let's not forget the pre-restriction GAT engine using a lot of cheap cantrips

But you forgot one important thing. GAT had Gush as the draw engine.

What you are trying to say is like playing BBS w/o 4 Fact.

Try playing the old GAT (aka your deck) without gush, you get a deck that runs out of gas FAST. You are just trading card for card. And a lot of times, you are just burning the brainstorms and visions on FoW.

Lim dul's vault is card loss.

AK wasn't there as a cantrip. It was there more as a draw engine.

That's why I'm still not sold on TFK/DA as the draw engine because it's just not realiable as TFK suffers the same problem as cards like opt: it just doesn't get you any card advantage to make the tog strategy work. Once your dryad's killed, you are doomed.

[Matt]

I think you probably don't need all ten cantrips - Brainstorm and Visions should be enough (cut Opts). I've been a huge fan of LDV for years, and GAT is actually a deck where I could see it being useful as a semi-Vampiric Tutor - you need to have a certain number of bombs you want to find badly enough to give up a card for. However, this particular build seems pretty light on such bombs - two togs, one deed...that's about it. The Gro decks with stuff like Null Rod (GroStill) or Damping Matrix (Dryad Hate) seem like better fits for LDV.

[Master Grinder]

I have to agree this decks may need some more bombs to tutor for,  I'll try to take out the 2 opts to replace them by 1 more tog and 1 more deed

but to stay on subjet,  I don't see LDV as a mini vampiric tutor in this deck, It is more of a setup card, making the engine rolling (by stacking the 5 top cards) and making my dryads deadly really quick.

Now about card disadvantage, I've always tough that the point of playing gro was to play as many spells as possible, not actually drawing that many cards, (well gaining card advantage is always interresting, especially when switching to the Tog plan) but to pump a dryad really quickly, I think cheap cantrips are more synergic than 3cc card drawer (TFK)

[BigDCool247]

I am an avid type one player but not a very good one.  However I have been playing hulk and gat both 3 color versions and am wondering if Skeletal scrying would have a place as a draw engine.  I have yet to test this Idea but it looks good in theory.  Ill explain, it is a great mana drain sink, and the deck is full of can trips and fetches and counter magic so there should be cards in the yard to remove that will not mess with running Yag's will.  Also if you are still playing with ak's it is a great way to get rid of them and net cards before your opponet has time to capitalize on your ak's, also the life loss is not as important as the card advantage.  I think skeletal scrying is an underrated card and would be a great addition to gat builds.  Thank you for your time.

[Ultima]

As far as Serum Visions, i think we're all agreed that its in once its legal.  

Regarding Lim Dul's Vault, in theory, it doesn't really sound like a stellar fit since you have so many times when your shuffling.

I run 5 fetchs and 4 tutors.  I'm shuffling quite often.

As far as cantrips, i do agree that GAT should play a nice amount of cantrips.  Personally, I've been running 6-7 for quite some time since my last list was posted.

Regarding Scrying, I have tested it.  I tried scrying over DA, but the life loss was alot of handle against aggro decks and Hulk has a better game against scrying than DA.  Both of things together made me way too uncomfortable since the field is wrecked with Hulk and FCG.

Regarding said list, the thread was introduced to talk about draw engines, but the list has none.  I really can't see how any deck with blue, black that has counters can be competitive without a draw engine of some sort.

[BigDCool247]

As for scrying I have yet to test it but I have a build ready and plan on doing so extensively.  Your points against aggro are well founded you just cant go crazy with the scrying It seems that in a number of times Scrying would be good to have, As it can remove Aks in the hulk matchup and if you plan for it the life loss is no more costly than deep would be.  And as for food chain Im testing the tech of engineered plague in the side it also helps in the slaver matchup I think it will have an impact.

[Grand Inquisitor]

Lim dul's vault is card loss.

AK wasn't there as a cantrip. It was there more as a draw engine.

That's why I'm still not sold on TFK/DA as the draw engine because it's just not realiable as TFK suffers the same problem as cards like opt: it just doesn't get you any card advantage to make the tog strategy work. Once your dryad's killed, you are doomed

Thanks Ed, this summarizes my thoughts pretty well.

I'll also mention what I pm'd to Ultima:

1) In a vacuum, AK is the optimal replacement for Gush in GAT

2) Unfortunately, a very good deck called Hulk exists which makes the AK engine dangerous in that matchup

I don't mean to undermine the work that Ultima and David Hernandez have down with the recent TFK GAT lists.  They are obviously very competitive.  However, Thirst has never worked well for me, and as Ed points out, its not really card advantage.  

This doesn't mean experimenting isn't useful to find out what doesn't work, but I think with a good draw engine, GAT can be a top (insert synonym for tier) deck.  Its my opinion that we haven't found that engine yet.

Serum Visions is nice, and may certainly find room in the deck, but it doesn't draw extra cards either.

* I also wanted to add that as much as I liked Lim Dul's Vault in the past, Mindslaver makes this card an auto loss.  I've cut it from my SB, I wouldn't put it maindeck in anything besides Dragon.

[rvs]

Lim Duls Vault is also a tool for combo decks, not control decks. It's pretty damn obvious.

[hatfulofhollow]

LDV is auto-loss versus slaver. Given the popularity of slaver, why would you even consider running it?

[Rico Suave]

That's not a legitimate reason to stop running a card.  Tog, Necro, and Bargain are auto-loss cards after a Slave, but you would be hard-pressed to say those cards shouldn't be in the decks they are in simply because of Slaver.

I'm not promoting LDV, just saying that reason isn't a valid one.

[Grand Inquisitor]

That's not a legitimate reason to stop running a card. Tog, Necro, and Bargain are auto-loss cards after a Slave, but you would be hard-pressed to say those cards shouldn't be in the decks they are in simply because of Slaver

Its a cost versus benefit issue here.  If a necropotence or yawgmoth's bargain hits play, its unlikely the opponent will get another turn to slave you because the effect of these cards on the game is so pronounced.  LDV isn't nearly as powerful an effect.  In the case of Psychatog, people usually side down to two or one togs, and some european builds only run two togs maindeck because of mindslaver.

You're right though, there are plenty of other reasons not to run it:
1) Its two different colors
2) Its card disadvantage
3) There are very few 'combos' in GAT that this can help to set up.

[Rico Suave]

Its a cost versus benefit issue here.  If a necropotence or yawgmoth's bargain hits play, its unlikely the opponent will get another turn to slave you because the effect of these cards on the game is so pronounced.  LDV isn't nearly as powerful an effect.  In the case of Psychatog, people usually side down to two or one togs, and some european builds only run two togs maindeck because of mindslaver.

I was under the assumption that these cards weren't cast yet, since a LDV that hits play no longer has the ability to kill you anyway.

[eddavatar]

Rico: I believe you are taking things to a little extreme here in comparing LDV with Bargain and Necro here. Comparing the power level of the 3 cards, you know that LDV is just not close. People build decks around bargain and necro, no one build a deck around LDV.

The point about tog is valid, which is why I'm the one running 2 togs and possibly side them out for damping matrix. Even then, tog is still a lot stronger than LDV as tog usually finish the game next turn.

Anyhow, GI summed it best, a gold card that net you negative cards that also cost life is quite bleh.

And heck, LDV can still kill you after you casted it, remember one card called Yawg will?