Time to pop a boner for Staff of Domination

[Hi-Val]

Read:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/mr122

Remember the Voltaic Contruct/Metalworker combo that was briefly discussed? The combo had potential-- unrestricted cards making infinite mana. However, it had some flaws. No draw, weak win condition (usually Magma Mine), etc. It really didn't make it past testing. Usually the strongest draw in the deck was Tower of Fortunes.

Now we've got a new stick to play with, and I think I like this one. Here's an arbitrary list why:

1. It's an artifact. I hear those are good, especially when they come out first turn with Workshop.
2. It says "Draw a card". It untaps itself. When you've got both combo components, you draw through the deck until you find the kill and win with it.
3. The mana curve of the combo and possibly the whole deck starts at 3, allowing maindeck Trinispheres. Also some good.
4. It can kill on the second turn.
5. The name of the card opens up all sorts of sexual innuendo.
6. Using Magma Mine, you can make reference to David Bowie and Queen's "Under Pressure".

The main problem lies in Metalworker. The bad boy is a creature and has summoning sickness. As he is the central core of the deck, it's essential to protect it. We all know the answer: Tooth and Nail for it and a Leonin Abunas. Okay, the real answer is Lightning Greaves, another card that fits the curve and can make the Metalworker hurt like a bitch when it equips.

I see the eventual deck running something to take out Null Rod, maybe one copy of the win condition, as well as something to protect the combo like Force of Will, Xantids or Duress. Brainstorm could make its way in as well. The deck would need to borrow lock/control components such as Mindslaver or Tangle Wire and the above-mentioned Trinisphere.
Anyone ambitious enough to make a tryout list?

EDIT: Oh shit, the card can also give you infinite life! What luck!

[eddavatar]

hah, we spotted that combo, but we were thinking about 1.5 =)

I don't know, the combo just feels too disruptable......summoning sickness of metalworker is definitely the biggest obsticle. I was wondering if using bazaar to churn out squee/anger is possible, since i personally don't trust the greaves all that much.

[Apollyon]

The problem with the combo is that you can't win against someone with a Powerleech in play. Which shouldn't be a problem at all, since no one knows what the card is, much less has any, or would even SB them. (AQ junk uncommons are tech)

It does look to be a decent combo with Metalworker, but I can't see too much else for uses for the Staff. Although I am excited to see 5D because of it.

[glenchuy]

the combo is too fragile imo... and the artwork isn't something i'd get exited over too... BUT! i does say, untap AND draw...

[Machinus]

I think that the good part of this card is that it says 1: Untap. This just seems like it is insanely useful, although for what I am not sure. Permanents that untap for 1 seem to be really good.

[Dr. Sylvan]

Two card combos are so passe.

If I'm generating a lot of mana, why aren't I just killing someone instead? Tendrils of Agony, anyone?

[skecreatoR]

Innovation isn't always about creating the best, but some times its just for improving understanding about a certain subject.

While it may not ever be a viable combo or card to include, people should at least be able to see what is possible with it, and then because of that they will learn something else.

[jpmeyer]

I actually built a Voltaic Construct/Metalworker deck back when Darksteel came out and actually this is exactly the sort of card that that deck needed.

Oh and run Serum Powder in this deck, because not only does it help you find your 2 card combo more easily, but you can keep a hand that has a Serum Powder since it'll generate 2 mana with your Metalworker.

[dicemanx]

Two card combos are so passe.

If I'm generating a lot of mana, why aren't I just killing someone instead? Tendrils of Agony, anyone?

But this combo utilizes a part that's very playable by itself (Metalworker). This means that instead of trying to focus on creating a new combo deck, adding the Staff to an existing deck like MUD or wMUD would add to the level of potency. Metalworker + Staff in MUD would allow you to drop every permanent from your deck into play apart from lands, resulting in pretty much an instant kill (unless your opponent can somehow deal with infinitelife and 4x Tangle Wire + 4x Sphere of Resistance). First turn Shop, Worker, second turn Staff is a sweet kill .

The only down-side is that the Staff is pretty mediocre by itself. The upside is that MUD would no longer be reliant on broken starts, and finally would have the tools to beat Slaver or 7/10 split, which are usually an auto-loss.

[Machinus]

Is this going to mean that MUD becomes a hybrid prison/combo deck? You could put 1 whetstone in the deck and win during your opponents draw step. I am not sure of a better way to win with just colorless mana.

[EDIT: Haha, who needs tutors when you can draw your whole deck?]

[dicemanx]

You could put 1 whetstone in the deck

This isn't necessary. You lock them down and win next turn with Karn. No extra win conditions are required.

[Thug]

The only down-side is that the Staff is pretty mediocre by itself. The upside is that MUD would no longer be reliant on broken starts, and finally would have the tools to beat Slaver or 7/10 split, which are usually an auto-loss.

*grmpf*

I wonder where you got that information from, and what kind of (outdated) build of MUD was used to get these results. MUD splits with Slaver and does slightly better versus 7/10, Slaver and 7/10 need an accelerated start with a Gilded Lotus to have a good change, otherwise the mana denial often is too much for them too handle. And MUD simply dying to welder is passé.

Putting this into MUD seems like a very bad idea to me, since one of the main strengths of the deck is that every single card is devoted to either acceleration or disruption. And this card does not fit into one of those categories.

The good and useful functions cost at least 4 mana, which is hard to accomplish. And playing this card just for the combo is just silly, you need at least 3 artifacts in your hand to create infinitive mana, and once you have a Metalworker you almost always empty your hand the turn after. Holding back cards just for the opportinity of drawing a Staff is just wrong.

I doubt the staff will really be used, it dies to all hate and is very expensive if not used in some sort of combo.

Koen

[Machinus]

If your combo goes off, sphere of resistance is the only important card for locking the opponent down. Tangle and trinisphere are nice too, but with 4 resistance out trinisphere doesn't do anything. Unless this deck would play like FCG where the combo is the main point of the deck, but it can also win through normal beatdown (in this case, lockdown). Would you run blue to tutor and fill up your hand, or red for welder? It seems like simply modifying an existing trinistax wouldn't be effective enough at comboing people out as much as possible.

[dicemanx]

Putting this into MUD seems like a very bad idea to me, since one of the main strengths of the deck is that every single card is devoted to either acceleration or disruption. And this card does not fit into one of those categories.

Except that the biggest weakness of MUD is the horrible inconsistency and the inability to do much mid game if you don't establish the lock quickly. The Staff could give it that "oops, I win" factor, at a price of course. I'm not claiming that Staff is a must in the deck. All I'm saying is that if we are going to try to do something with Staff of Domination, incorporating it into existing decks to shore up certain weaknesses would be a obvious suggestion to consider.

I wonder where you got that information from, and what kind of (outdated) build of MUD was used to get these results. MUD splits with Slaver and does slightly better versus 7/10, Slaver and 7/10 need an accelerated start with a Gilded Lotus to have a good change, otherwise the mana denial often is too much for them too handle. And MUD simply dying to welder is passé.

Perhaps I'm using an "outdated" build, but I haven't seen anybody post any "updates" to MUD for a long time. MUD still has a lot of trouble against Welders, and the explosiveness of Slaver is tough to handle. MUD has enough trouble staying consistent against less explosive decks, so it hasn't been too surprising that it does even worse against Slaver/7-10.

Maybe it has been different for you in testing, but maybe you're using some "updated" build that is bringing the match-ups back up to 50/50?

[Ric_Flair]

The problem in Type 1 is that there is huge room for innovation, given the size of the cardpool, but little of the innovation is relevant.  Counterspell is a great card, but not good enough.  The Metalworker/Staff of Dominance combo is great, but the one card combo of Tendrils is just better.  Innovation for its own sake is pretty useless in a game with well defined parameters and goals.

[theorigamist]

Ric, normally I would agree with you that innovation for innovation's sake is useless.  But I don't know if this should be considered innovation for its own sake.  Yes, the Staff is part of a multicard combo, which almost right away makes it worse of a combo than Tendrils or Tog.  But it also serves many other purposes.

Let's talk about Tog for a minute, because it's a decent enough analogy.  I have previously said that the thing that makes Tog good is that it's the best blocker, the biggest attacker, the cheapest creature, and in the right colors to be used.  It's not like old control where you have to gain control, then wait four turns.  It's part of the control, and then wins in one turn.  Staff would be similar for the deck you need to picture it in.  It helps defensively (tapping Togs, and Time Walk only helps a little, unlike with Maze of Ith), it helps the combo (untapping Metalworkers), it draws cards, it locks down creatures, and it gives you life to slow down the game against basically anything.  One of the problems with the one card combo decks (Tendrils and Belcher) has been that they become susceptible to hate.  But Staff would be in a lock deck, and the combo, as I see it, is of secondary importance (much like with Tog, where its control function is its primary purpose until it becomes lethal).  So it would be more resilient to hate, and, most importantly, it could play several roles, and so would be able to adjust to most matchups.

I'm not trying to say this card will break the format or anything, but I think it deserves a much closer look than just "Oh, another two card combo, how old."

[DEA]

it's all nice and easy to say "oh, this combo sucks because it's a 2 card combo that relies on a creature"
but if you look at it, this combo piece does LOTS of good shit on it's own, without the need for another combo part
how useful is illusions without donate?
like dicemanx mentioned, MUD always suffers from having nothing to do
this 1. buys you time against tog/big fat aggro 2. draws cards 3. untaps welders for turbo welding
can't we just accept it at face value instead of thinking of it as a combo part?

besides, i've always wanted to have a combo kill with prison  :lol:

[Thug]

Except that the biggest weakness of MUD is the horrible inconsistency and the inability to do much mid game if you don't establish the lock quickly. The Staff could give it that "oops, I win" factor, at a price of course. I'm not claiming that Staff is a must in the deck. All I'm saying is that if we are going to try to do something with Staff of Domination, incorporating it into existing decks to shore up certain weaknesses would be a obvious suggestion to consider.

MUD's biggest weakness by far is losing the dice-roll, but that aside I cannot see how you think this can shore up MUD's weaknesses. MUD relies on "Oops, I Win" hands and the change on having these hands is reduced by adding cards that do not match with the disruptive nature of the deck.

Perhaps I'm using an "outdated" build, but I haven't seen anybody post any "updates" to MUD for a long time. MUD still has a lot of trouble against Welders, and the explosiveness of Slaver is tough to handle.

...

Maybe it has been different for you in testing, but maybe you're using some "updated" build that is bringing the match-ups back up to 50/50?

Isn't that just a major flaw in your testing? I mean i'm not gonna test against an half-year/year old deck if I do not know of any newer versions. There will be a good change then that the deck won't perform that well since it's not adjusted to the currrent metagame.

MUD has enough trouble staying consistent against less explosive decks, so it hasn't been too surprising that it does even worse against Slaver/7-10.

But slaver and 7-10 are much easier to disrupt than less explosive decks (take WW as an example if you want). A first turn Sphere plus an early wasteland easily buys you 2 if not more turns against Slaver/7-10, where it doesn't relatively little versus WW.

To quote myself from another topic, where you should take a look at btw, since it has some information about a newer list of MUD. But that list it outdated already, since I have been testing some more against the current decks lately.

It's back! I swear, it coud be a metagame breakin' choice right now. Control Slaver decks run only 17 land, and recently some people even went do to 16. Thats just asking for some disruption.

The topic

In the list I posted there you should remove the brooches and 1 karn to make room for 3 maindeck Triskelions. Also the ports once against are replaced by Fields, although this can chage back again.

Tog and Slaver decks rely heavinly on spells to find their mana sources, when you can deny or pospone them the opportunity to play their spells they will have mana problems, how often do you not keep a 1 land hand with a brainstorm with these decks, imagine what a Chalice for 1 would do against such a hand, or just a Trinisphere.

like dicemanx mentioned, MUD always suffers from having nothing to do this 1. buys you time against tog/big fat aggro 2. draws cards 3. untaps welders for turbo welding can't we just accept it at face value instead of thinking of it as a combo part?

I'm spending all my mana almost every turn with MUD, at least until the lock in accomplished. So I dont have time to invest 9 mana into drawing a single card, so that my staff just cycled, oh wait - I got a free permanent!!!

If used to draw card, it's so much worse than Skullcap, skullcap does not tie up valuable mana, which you need to play the 2 cards your drawing a turn.

When drawing cards with this you're most likely being massifly outdrawed by your opponent since you just spended ridicolous amounts of mana on not disrupting your opponent.

And you're goal is too keep Psychatog off the table, not to tap it when it enters. And even if you want to do that, Tangle Wire is a lot better at that.

Koen

[dicemanx]

Isn't that just a major flaw in your testing? I mean i'm not gonna test against an half-year/year old deck if I do not know of any newer versions. There will be a good change then that the deck won't perform that well since it's not adjusted to the currrent metagame.

You infer that MUD has made some sort of significant adjustments to the current meta, but nothing much has changed. That list from half a year ago is hardly what I would call "outdated" - that's much too strong of a term. Beefing up the number of Trisks is a wise metagame adjustment, but I've already been experimenting with that in all of the Workshop decks, MUD included.  

 

MUD's biggest weakness by far is losing the dice-roll, but that aside I cannot see how you think this can shore up MUD's weaknesses.

You seem to believe that MUD always gets busted hands, and it just hopes to win the die roll to get its almighty threats up asap and just win. I only wish the deck worked that well and was that consistent. I've been playing various incarnations of MUD for more than a year, and I've pretty much given up on it because it just doesn't perform consistently. It's not just the die-roll either. A lot of it has to do with periodically not being able to establish the hard lock after some early attrition war, and proceeding into top-deck mode where your opponent might get a chance to develop far too rapidly and your hopes of winning diminish greatly. The Staff combo shores up that particular weakness - having a "mid game" after the early game plan fails.

I know that you are the co-creator of the deck and understand it very well,  but I'm sensing that you are quite optimstic about its chances. Perhaps a bit too optimistic, or perhaps I'm just not lucky at cards? You are quite lucky if a statement like this is really true:

I'm spending all my mana almost every turn with MUD, at least until the lock in accomplished.

As far as the match-ups between MUD and Slaver/7-10 are concerned, I'd rather not continue any theoretical debates in this thread. Yes, you can stop any deck with Trini and/or Wasteland and lock them quickly with Stack, but you can just as easily plop down early Trini and Wires and just fizzle out. Happens all the time. Yes, Slaver plays fewer lands, but it has an explosive mana base and plays many permanents so its not the easiest deck to lock, especially if it can stop Stack with Welders to buy itself time and FoW your Trisks or plop out a quick Gilded Lotus despite your Tangle Wire/Trinisphere action.  It even gets the edge because while MUD operates only with its initial 7 and the top deck, Slaver has the capability to draw and/or see many more cards. I just don't trust decks that live off the top-deck like MUD does.

[Ric_Flair]

DEA:

it's all nice and easy to say "oh, this combo sucks because it's a 2 card combo that relies on a creature"
but if you look at it, this combo piece does LOTS of good shit on it's own, without the need for another combo

Staff does do a lot of stuff, but here is the problem--none of it is particularly helpful in Vintage, or if it is, the Staff is not economically priced.  Furthermore there is a unrecaptured investment of 3 mana, making all of the Staff's abilities much more expensive than their mana cost would indicate.  Here are its abilities:

1: Untap Staff.

This is only good if Staff's tap abilities are good.  Otherwise it is the equivalent of "1: Untap my asshole."  That is, it would be totally useless, unless I was constipated or something.

2, Tap: Gain 1 Life.

This ability is terrible.  Two life costs you a bargain basement price of 5 mana.  Negating a Lightning Bolt, which costs R and a card, costs 8 mana.  Hardly a bargain.  

3, Tap: Untap target creature.

Okay this is better.  But really this works with only your creatures.  Furthermore, it essentially works only with Metalworker and Goblin Welder, the only two creatures in Vintage with worthwhile tap abilities.  No one in their right mind would pay 3 to untap a Suq Ata Firewalker.  A card that combos with two fragile creatures that are better off comboing with other cards is not exactly "boner popping."

4, Tap:  Tap target creature.

This is actually worse than the previous ability in Vintage.  Essentially this is tap Tog, Angel, Dreadnought or the like.  There are just not enough worthy threats to justify this ability.  Decree tokens laugh.  Tap me for 5 mana.  No thanks.

5, Tap: Draw a card.

All right, a good ability.  Damn it, it costs the same, overall, as Jayemdae Tome does (4+4 or 3+5).  11 mana to draw two cards.  17 mana to draw three cards.  Or I can cast Ancestral or Intuition and AK.  This is too slow to impact most Vintage games.

The card will certainly be useful in other formats and its utility may save it yet in a very narrowly tailored role in some other decks, maybe a crappy version of Keeper, but overall this is not boner worthy.  The two card combo is really a three card combo because Metalworker/Staff needs a kill card, unless you plan on attacking with the 'Worker.  

Two card combos rotated out of Vintage.  Illusions is not an apt comparison.  It was good because of Necro not because of the combo itself.  The combo is actually still legal and no one uses it.  Why?  Because two card combos are too inefficient.  Three card combos like Staff/Metalworker/X are beyond terrible.

If you are building a serious combo in Vintage it better use one card like Tendrils or Belcher and fast mana.  The cute tricks don't work anymore.

[dicemanx]

Ric, Metalworker and Staff is a two card combo, in MUD anyways. It doesn't need a third kill card; even if it did (if you wanted to build a pure combo deck) you don't need to have it in hand.

Otherwise, the statement that Belcher or Tendrils combos are better is too simplistic. Take Dragon for example. The 7-8 Animates it runs as part of a three-card combo are ass by themselves (much like the Staff, which happens to actually be useful by comparison), and yet I dare anyone to tell me to run Tendrils over Dragon because Tendrils is a "1 card combo" or because Animates are pretty useless outside the combo.

Combo decks succeed or fail based on their overall synergy, not how many combo pieces constitute the win condition. If you are prepared to say that the Staff combo will never be part of a strong synergistic deck, then you must have much more insight than most of us right now.

Let's not succumb to such pessimism too quickly.

[DavidHernandez]

My first reaction to this card was that it's a piece of crap.  

So, I went back and re-read what all of you had to say, and then I went and re-read the card several times.

My second reaction was that this card is a piece of crap.

I think that it will go the same route of Isochron Scepter, and be seen only rarely, and even then it will be included in $5,000 decks that can be shut down by a $2 Null Rod or a $1 Damping Matrix.

Dave.

[Ric_Flair]

I would never say this card has no use.  It has too many abilities to ignore, but it is overpriced for Vintage.

[aside]
As far as the Dragon v. Tendrils (by Tendrils I mean Draw 7, TPS seems like a weaker version of a Tendrils combo deck to me) debate is concerned I think that recent tournament results have proven that Tendrils is *just* better than Dragon.  Dragon has remained viable for three reasons relatively independent of its power as a deck: 1) the ability to usefully splash blue for Force; 2) the ability to modulate the deck running as a Reanimate deck or a deck with Deed (admittedly this is somewhat related to deck power, but really it is simply an acknowledgement that Dragon cannot draw "the lay down hand" like Tendrils can and just win, so, in order to survive it has these secondary themes); and 3) the simplicity of the combo when compared to Tendrils.  There are three cards but the loop is pretty easy to set up.  Tendrils, like Long, is a very difficult deck play right.  Belcher is a bit simpler, but is less powerful than Tendrils is.  
[end aside]

This card seems like an okay filler card for MUD, but finding filler cards for dead or dying decks seems a bit like making a recipe for dodo egg omlets.  

The card is versatile, but its abilities are pretty well understood and we all know how much they are "worth" in Vintage.  The only snag here is value of having all these abilities on one card.  I will hedge my bets and say the card has some potential, but I really think it is overpriced.

[dicemanx]

As far as the Dragon v. Tendrils (by Tendrils I mean Draw 7, TPS seems like a weaker version of a Tendrils combo deck to me) debate is concerned I think that recent tournament results have proven that Tendrils is *just* better than Dragon.

What tournament results would those be, and what exactly constitutes "proof"? To make any fair comparisons, we would actually need to see more (or rather, ANY) people playing with Dragon to gauge how strong the deck is in the current meta.  Plus, tournament results have to be taken with a grain of salt. Otherwise, one could, for instance, conclude that FCG is the best deck to play right now .

In any case, comparing the combo decks is just not possible.They have their own strengths and weaknesses. Dragon is more controllish and less susceptible to hate (unless that hate is specific for Dragon), while Belcher and Tendrils decks are faster but more easily disrupted. Which is better? Who knows. There is no "proof", it all depends on the metagame that they find themselves in.


Back to the discussion of Staff:

I would never say this card has no use. It has too many abilities to ignore, but it is overpriced for Vintage

The Staff's abilities in vintage are largely irrelevant, much like Donate's effect or Animate's effect is largely irrelevant. The Staff's value is a function of the combo deck it finds itself in. The fact that you can use it to draw a card or tap a creature when you have nothing else to do (as sometimes happens with MUD), is just a bonus.

This card seems like an okay filler card for MUD, but finding filler cards for dead or dying decks seems a bit like making a recipe for dodo egg omlets.

What you view as dead or dying might be viewed by others as lying in wait until better meta conditions roll around. Why did MUD all but disappear? Better and more exciting Workshop decks rolled in and even gave MUD a tough game. Perhaps something could be done with Staff to improve some aspects of the deck? Why ignore the possibility? It might not pan out, but it's worth investigating. Theoretical debates will not answer these questions.

[Vegeta2711]

I think that recent tournament results have proven that Tendrils is *just* better than Dragon.

Huh? Dragon has tended to do very well overall for T8's. I don't know any 'recent' tourney results that show anything different.

(EDIT: Oh my mistake, someone just pointed me to the latest italian results which for some reason was all combo. But past that the main point stands.)

As for being on topic - Staff is cute, I don't think it'll do very much in the format, but you never know. Something with that many abilites and such an obvious 2 card combo certainly could be good. I'll def. want to make a version of MUD like FCG now. (Combo/Prision)  

[DEA]

i agree, it's overcosted
the abilities cost too much to play, and they don't have a immediate impact unless you have a lot (read infinite mana)
but there are many times in weldermud (please, don't tell me you use up all your mana casting stuff until you get a hardlock, because it doesn't happen all the time unless you're playing a goldfish) when you find yourself living off the topdeck
in situations like this (somewhat akin to manaflood) you have a lot of free mana
what're you going to do? sit there and pray or start using the staff?
it might not be a gamebreaker, but i think it deserves at least some consideration
having the ability to simply combo out if you can't get the hardlock is worth something in my book

[Dr. Sylvan]

Everybody starts talking tournament results and then forgets my pager number. Typical.

-MEAN- - 2003,Janu.,Febr.,Marc.,Apri.
_7.5% - 17.5, _2.5, _5.0, _5.6, _6.9 Dragon
_6.3% - 11.3, _2.5, _5.0, _4.2, _8.5 Storm Combo

Neither is strictly better.

Tony has expressed pretty much my sentiments on the Staff. Any comboing with Metalworker needs to demonstrate (to satisfy me, anyway) that it can overcome the slowness of summoning sickness combined with the inconsistency of monobrown deck draws. Remember that MW wasn't good enough for Stax, so we're talking about MUD-level artifact concentration, which is not conducive to the Staff, as Koen explained.

[Ric_Flair]

Phil, I did check out your numbers and they did not support my opinion definitively, so I omitted them.  Still given how much more difficult Draw 7 is to play than Dragon I think it is fair to say that Draw 7 is more powerful, but its numbers are lower due to complexity.  The fact that Draw 7 shows up as even with Dragon is a testament to how good it really is.

Next time make sure your numbers definitively support my bald generalizations.  

The other thing that I find humorous here is the fact that we are discussing a card that fills in a spot in a deck that is essentially dead.  Both the spot and the deck.  MUD has problems because there is really no draw.  The whole deck is lock and mana with nothing else.  Decks that can use this mana (Slaver) or this lock (Stax) and add other stuff are just better decks.  It may come back, but I really think that Slaver would have to die for that to happen.  That or some other radical metagame shift.  Why bother setting up a complex, but hard, three card lock when you can just cast Slaver and win?  The same thing goes with combos.  Why play combos other than Tendrils or Belcher (which are one card combos with fast mana).  And the same thing goes for creatures.  Why play anything over Tog?  Really Vintage is a brutal cardpool.  It is much shallower than the actual number of cards would indicate.  New cards and new strategies are just vastly better than old stuff.  So that is why MUD is having problems.

Then we move to the dead spot in the deck.  Whether it was Mind's Eye or another artifact drawer, they were all conditional and weak in comparison to blue draw.  Thus MUD had a huge hole in the deck.  And now we are talking about a clunky but potentially versatile addition to that slot.  Great.  Just what the deck needs, more clunky artifacts that work only in certain scenarios.  MUD's downfall was its lack of consistency and its lack of draw.  This card only exacerbates those issues.

But I will be the first to admit that theoretical debate cannot end this conversation.  Testing is needed, I am just not sure how much time a card this pricey warrants in today's cutthroat Vintage format.

[The Hamburgler]

Null Rod
Artifact
Casting cost - 2
Players can't play artifacts' activated abilities

[Rico Suave]

Phil, I did check out your numbers and they did not support my opinion definitively, so I omitted them.  Still given how much more difficult Draw 7 is to play than Dragon I think it is fair to say that Draw 7 is more powerful, but its numbers are lower due to complexity.  The fact that Draw 7 shows up as even with Dragon is a testament to how good it really is.

Next time make sure your numbers definitively support my bald generalizations.   :wink:

I hope this is very sarcastic.  

Anyway, regarding the strength of Draw 7, if good players are playing Draw 7, then it's obviously the same strength as Dragon is.  If the good players aren't playing Draw 7, what does that say about the deck?