Scepter tog

[Apocd21]

This is my first post but i have been a reader for about 6 months.  I just got back into magic about a year ago so im still trying to assemble the power 9 but im doing my best.

I have been playing scepter tog at my local type 1 and i wanted to know what most of you think of it.  Its similar to extended and i find that the card advantage off scepter is better then that off da's.  I have a very aggro combo metagame with belcher slaver trinity green sleigh decks u/r fish type 1 ravager dragon and not much control.  Keeper sometimes and tog sometimes.
I have won the last 4 type ones with this list

3 psychatog

4 ak
2 intuition
3 fire/ice
3 brainstorm
1 Ancestral recall
1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
3 cunning wish

2 Misdirection
3 isotron scepter
4 mana drain
4 fow
2 duress
1 mindtwist

4 delta
1 flooded stand
1 mox emerald
1 mox ruby
1 sol ring
4 underground sea
3 volcanic island
3 Tropical island
2 wasteland
1 stripmine

sb
1 beserk
3 da
2 artifact mutation
3 reb
1 beb
1 fof
1 smother
1 naturalize
1 coffen purge
1 misdirection

i realize i dont have all the power... i'm trying to get a sapphire very shortly

My metagames does have several fully powered and partially powered people and usually tournoments are around 25 people no proxys.  I was wondering what everyone thought of how scepter effects control games.  It isnt usually that often even fully powered decks ahve mana drain mana up on turn one but it is often that people have some excel on turn one and scepter with drain ak fire/ice on turn 1 and 2 are very strong plays. i do run more misdirections to protect but the are very good normally in a counter war and against random sinkholes and burn spells as well as recalls da's.  the fire/ices on scepter makes keeper have to find an anwser to scepter before doj generally.  And fire/ice is very usful without scepter anyways for killing welders tapping a maze of ith or preventing a 6/6 flying worm from attacking while getting you a card.

I find most people dont side in anwsers to scepter and when they do its usually easy enough to mis d them to moxes or some of their targets.  The scepters do give tog more control feel but i think it is a turn for the better. If you ever scepter artifact mutation against any workshop deck or t1 ravager u can see that it will end the game right there.

I beleive the addition of sceper and fire ice make the deck stronger vs aggro, fish, and slaver decks.  Fish was a very difficult matchup for me prior to the addition of the scepter and fire/ices but the scepters easily make up the card advantage of standstills and killing things like voidmages and grim lavamancers easily.  And while the hulk mirror statistics i have havnt changed much in percents if very much changes how your opponent plays in real life.  They tend to make more mistakes when there tog gets iced every turn gaining you card advantage.

 

Anyfeed back would be appreciated as i would like some help with thoughts and ideas.

I will play this agian this wendsday and i will give a report.

Your thread is fine, but please don't double-post. Posts Merged. -Dr. Sylvan

[wonkey_donkey]

The things that struck me most about your decklist was the lack of the 4th brainstorm and the 2 duresses. How have the duresses been working out for you? I would have guessed that with the high number of counterspells compared to most hulk decks you'd be ok with less proactive answers. I'd be tempted, at first glance, to change the following things about the deck:

MD:
-2 Duress
-1 Fire/Ice
+1 Brainstorm
+1 Deep Analysis
+1 Vampiric Tutor

SB:
-1 DA
-1 Artifact Mutation
+1 F/I
+1 Pernicious Deed

I don't know whether this is the best configuration or not, but I feel like you have just too little draw and tutoring power at the moment, whilst you have a slightly too high answer count. I'm tempted to swap the deed for the tutor, but with the scepters and F/Is, I don't think it's needed nearly so much. If the second mutation is needed, too, then I'm not sure what would be better to cut - maybe the misdirection? I prefer to have an F/I in the sideboard to be wished for if necessary. Also, I'm wondering whether you'd be better off running gush over FoF - you don't have as much power and you have slightly more islands than a normal tog deck - I just think that it'd be worth trying out.

Good call on many things in the deck, however - I like the majority of card choices in there, especially the lack of md beserk; I imagine most extended players would be playing 4, which shows a lack of understanding, generally speaking.

I hope this was constructive,

Tom

[Apocd21]

i dont think duress can come out its just a staple card that help resolve your cards or takes away some of their best threats or anwsers very good against keeper and fish. With the heavy aggro metagme i would say about 35% in my area i would be more inclined to use mystical over vamp sence there isnt much vamp gets u over mystical for the cost of 2 life. as for gush in the board i have thought about it as it is alot of damage for tog.  I have tested it a little and i still think that digging deeper with fof out weighs the ability to protect land and the "free" cost. I dont find that fof's cost is to high.  

I do find myself wishing for fof atleast once every three games though.  That is one of the reason i choose 3 wish over 2.  Or does that maybe mean i should main deck it?
maybe ill drop an artifact mutation ill see how much it effects workshop matches.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

I think that you should really add either gush or a couple of deep analysis. Those cards are so house it's not even funny. As for the matchup vs. fish, adding scepter doesn't do jack, as they have null rod...although fire does help tremendously. I run 1 deed maindeck as a reset button, and I feel it is needed.

The problem with scepter tog is that there really isn't any spell you can put on scepter that will any difference. I would rather have 2 deep anal and a gush instead of 3 scepters. Instead of imprinting, I'd rather just cast it and win. I will admit scepter mutate is pretty strong, but it wasn't like tog had a hard time vs. workshop decks in the first place.

[eddavatar]

If you are not full-powered, it's tough enough to run tog properly, much less running it with scepter, as permanant mana acceleration is so important to have scepter running properly.

Consider Mana crypt, those guys are houses. They power the scepter, intuition and DA.

DA is one of the most broken card for the deck btw as it wins the mirror for you first game, at least one copy would be needed maindeck.

Brainstorm is one of the most broken card for hulk (or any blue-based deck). Running 4 is a no-brainer.

Tog doesn't like the mis-d all that much. Tog wins by card advantage. You are usually better off with duress.

Fire/Ice are good especially if your meta have lotta juicy targets (aka welder and fishies) I've ran 2 before in GAT. But 3 might be a little excessive.

[jCoKn]

I've seen a pretty cool version of scepter Tog w/ lots of control and white splash instead of red for swords and orim's chant. Way cool. Don't know if it's necessarily great but it did the trick against FCG... and FCG does well against normal tog. Just my random comment.

[Gabethebabe]

With all that artifact hate running around I would think twice before putting Isochron Scepter in *any* deck. Especially because it isn´t that good.

[SpencerForHire]

If the deck is control enough the hate shouldn't matter, it just makes all your matchups worse.  If you insist on running Iso, you have to play twice the control role you normally would.  I'd also run an Orim's in the board just for wishing when you have an Iso in hand, that can win a game on it's own and IMO any deck running it should have someone way to grab chant.

3 psychatog

4 ak
2 intuition
2 fire/ice
4 brainstorm
1 Ancestral recall
1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
3 cunning wish
1 Deep Analysis
1 Vampiric Tutor
 
3 isotron scepter
4 mana drain
4 fow
4 duress
 

4 delta
1 flooded stand
1 mox emerald
1 mox ruby
1 sol ring
4 underground sea
3 volcanic island
3 Tropical island
2 wasteland
1 stripmine

sb
1 beserk
1 da
1 artifact mutation
3 reb
1 beb
1 fof
1 smother
1 naturalize
1 coffen purge
1 misdirection
1 F/I
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Orims Chant

The changes are in bold.  With this build you have a more control build and so shouldn't have to worry nearly as much about artifact hate as you would before.  I find Misdirections don't worth well in this build which is why they were removed; if your going to remove something from the game why not just put it on a scepter.  Duress will recover your loss of Misdirection nicely.  Mind twist is simple overkill on the discard, your not running keeper.  Once again duress will help you here.
Whatcha think?

[Apocd21]

those changes seem good but i think i will keep a mindtwist over a duress i like the idea of chant but wouldn't Abeyance be a better choice as it nets me a card and i have no way or producing the white mana for the kicker?

You guys are totally right with the brainstorms i should have never cut one.

[SpencerForHire]

Orims or [card[Abeyance[/card] is a personal choice, I always overlook abeyance personally, but you are probably right it would be a better option.  If you insist on running [card]mind twist[/card] take out 1 duress.
What type of decks do you play against, i get the impression some sort of workshop or TnT deck, some madness.

[Apollyon]

If there isn't much for aggro with a good clock in your meta, then the kicker isn't needed. What Abeyance is best at is creating an environment where your opponent can't counter your spells. I like the card advantage of Abeyance on the Scepter, however, it doesn't stop creatures or artifacts from hitting the board, which is why you run Chant over Abeyance to imprint.

Mind Twist over Duress is fine.

[eddavatar]

As I've mentioned earlier, if you like mind twist and scepter that much, why not run mana crypt?

[Sawse]

Im not too sure abou the scepter, but id have to say you should keep the duress, especially against fish. Fire/Ice, FoW, and other answers to tog's going off are good to remove. With so much artifact hate the scepters might be better being replaced. I dont know too much about tog though, so im not sure what you should put in.

[xthexpunisherx]

I just have a general question, everyone runs coffin purge instead of Tormods crypt.  I don't see why, Tormods is very helpful vs the mirror match.  I do undersand how its nice that it is played at instant speed vs combo.  Just my thought though.  As for the deck if you can get a scepter to resolve in type 1 your card advantage goes THROUGH THE ROOF!  just good luck getting it resolved   !

[eddavatar]

This is getting real bad.

First, the best tog players are all starting to drop coffin purges. I personally run stifle in its place.

Second, crypt doesn't stop tog from winning. Tog usually draw enough cards to win anyway, and they won't do anything reckless against a crypt. Heard of cunning wish?

Scepter doesn't give you any card advantage in most cases unless you activate it more than twice.

As sawse says, you are probably better off not running scepter in the face of so much artifact hate in T1.

[Apocd21]

3 psychatog

4 ak
2 intuition
3 fire/ice
4 brainstorm
1 Ancestral recall
1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
3 cunning wish
1 DA

2 misdirection
3 isotron scepter
4 mana drain
4 fow
2 duress
1 mindtwist

4 delta
1 flooded stand
1 mox emerald
1 mox ruby
1 sol ring
4 underground sea
3 volcanic island
3 Tropical island
2 wasteland
1 stripmine

sb
1 beserk
2 da
2 artifact mutation
3 reb
1 beb
1 fof
1 smother
1 naturalize
1 coffen purge
1 misdirection
1 stifle

This is what i wound up playing yesterday at my local t1.    

Round 1 I Play a monoblack graveyard recursion deck with ashen gouls and other things that come into play for free with stuff above them.  

Game 1 i have to mull game one with no land .  my hand of 6 was ruby 2 fetches brainstorm scepter and fire/ice.  Turn 1 i go first and drop scepter and fire/ice.  He goes and duresses my brainstorm the masses the turn.  I draw a force on my next turn and ice a few times to gain some cards as my fire/ices kept my life total high after he had  recuring nether shadows and gouls i ge a tog and berserk on like turn 8 or so.

Game 2 He plays first and duresses away my force.  next turn he rituals buried alive for the gouls and they start beating me quickly and i lose on like turn 5

Game 3 land sol ring scepter manadrain turn one.  Turn 2 i walk. on my walk turn i strip his first land drop and drain his only ritual and then he is mana screwed and doesnt recover.
1-0    2-1

Round 2 belcher he goes first and i keep a no force hand and lose turn 1.........

game 2 i have a drain and force in hand with one land and brainstorm and ak i think.. he tries a first turn belcher that i force and my brainstorm at end of turn find me another land and hes just in topdeck mode after i drain twister. i win on turn 5 or 6 after drawing a bunch off fof

game 3 he plays land grant and mana vault and passes the turn.  i duress and take his belcher but he then resolves a wheel as i have no force but i get one in the new hand that gets a his belcher after he ritualed and he doesnt get a chance to see a 3rd belcher as i win around turn 8 or so.

2-0 4-2

round 3 t1 ravager

Game 1
i play badly and target a myr enforcer with artifact mutation with a ravager on the board.... and lose.

Game 2 first turn mana drain on scepter second turn i drain a frog and i go get a artifact mutation with demonic and put it on scepter and he scoops

game 3 he tries to tinker but i force and he just doesnt seem to have much gas after i ice his ravager once and get another i later fire his disciple  and just gain control only taking like 10 damage and berserking for the win.
3-0  6-3

round 4  
game 1 i play against suicide black and have it pretty easy as i misdirect a hymm when wish for another one and misd his sinkhole he is depleted and i control it from there.  

game 2 he does first turn ritual then hymm that i mis d before he tries to duress.  i lose my force but i have a brain storm that gets me an intution and alot of cards and he doesnt reconver once i scepter fire/ice and he only has one shade.  

top 4

i play ravager again and i dont have much of a problem this time and i 2-0 him prettyeast game 1 i wish for mutation on turn 2 and get a myr enforcer and he cant get around all the blockers.  
game 2 i mis d a oxidize targeting my scepter to his mana crypt and he loses to much tempo and its over.

finals i split with a slaver deck

Maybe its just me but i find scepter to be huge card advantage in every game i get one on the board.  Alot of people are so afraid of it they take it over forces and drains with duress. i beleive everyone should try it.
I also ahve alot more fun with the deck then regular hulk.  

I have been playing this for about a month and 1/2 now before that i played hulk for like 4 months so i have a good deal of experiance with both. i like having 2 artifact mutations as there is so many big targets in my area from platnum angel slavers myrs that alot of times its just better to have 2 for consistance and the rack and ruin in the board.

i think the im going to drop one mis d though as the targets in alot of games are going down ill probably add anoter waste or da