[deck] Which cards to proxy in Hulk?

[tracer03]

I've been playing a build of Hulk for some time now, and am going to be playing in some upcoming tournaments.

However....I have NO power. I sold everything a while back to buy a house, under the impression that I was "done" with Magic......heh.

I have duals, Berserk - but no moxen, no lotus, no big blue, no library.

The upcoming tourney allows three proxies.

What are the three most essential OOP cards for Hulk? What cards would you proxy?

For reference, my thought is Timewalk, Ancestral, and Mox Sapphire.

My decklist:
3 Duress
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish
4 Force of Will
2 Intuition
2 Mana Drain
2 Counterspell
1 Merchant Scroll
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Psychatog
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mind Twist
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Ancestral Recall (proxy)
1 Gush
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Time Walk (proxy)


1 Black Lotus (proxy)
1 Mox Emerald (proxy)
1 Mox Jet (proxy)
1 Mox Ruby (proxy)
1 Mox Pearl (proxy)
1 Mox Sapphire (proxy)
1 Mana Crypt
1 Strip Mine
3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
2 Island

[Matt]

Do you have Drains?

[tracer03]

Derf. Added my decklist above. That would help, I s'pose...

I have 2 drains. I was toying with adding a stronger white component for consistent StP access and Balance, since I play a more control-oriented style, and a lot of the decks in the area are very aggro. Balance maches up well. That also beggars the question of adding Zuran Orb vs. burn and to fill the graveyard....

[Toad]

Just don't play Tog without the full set of Drains and Moxens...

[jpmeyer]

Can't play it with that many power cards and Drains missing.

[PucktheCat]

Most people will tell you to play something else if you don't have the full power.

If you still want to play Hulk I would proxy fast mana before Ancestral Recall.  Perhaps Time Walk, Mox Sapphire, Black Lotus.

Also, play a Sol Ring in place of one of the lost Moxen.

The missing Mana Drain does suggest another deck might be better though . . . GAT might be more forgiving of missing power.

Leo

Edit: wow, TWO people beat me to saying play something else . . .

[xthexpunisherx]

Well my friend plays tog with 1 (Ancestrial) piece of power and recently won a tourny of about 25 (most of the top comitition was running full power).  I would suggest first off to definatly proxy Ancestrial and Time Walk and lotus as your first 3 choices.  After that I would do on color moxes, then drains.  The off color moxen are nice but not necessary.  Don't fear its a great deck you can do it without full power!

[Klep]

xthexpunisherx is either mistaken or lying to you.  The results of one tournament don't matter, what matters is extensive testing and tournament reports over time that show unpowered Hulk just doesn't work.   Fish is probably your best option if you're missing that much power/drains but want to play blue.

[Kerz]

Honestly, the deck was built with intentions of running the most optimal cards. When you bastardize an accepted deck in such a bad way, it becomes much worse than the "good" budget deck you could have played instead.

[xthexpunisherx]

xthexpunisherx is either mistaken or lying to you.  The results of one tournament don't matter, what matters is extensive testing and tournament reports over time that show unpowered Hulk just doesn't work.   Fish is probably your best option if you're missing that much power/drains but want to play blue.

I'm not speaking of one tournament, I am speaking of someone that has played 'Tog and done quite well without full power.  While I admit that full power 'Tog is excellent, A good player can take a unpowered or under-powered deck very far.  In all honesty most decks would be better with full power.  However it isn't necessary in all decks (some decks it is more important than others) and 'Tog can be very affective without full power (and then again most people won't run a Timetwister in there 'tog deck meaning it isn't truley a 'full power' deck  

[eddavatar]

Can people please understand that Tog is bad without full power?

Please, run Gay/r if you don't have full power heading into a proxy tourney but yet want to play blue.

[Klep]

I'm not speaking of one tournament, I am speaking of someone that has played 'Tog and done quite well without full power.  While I admit that full power 'Tog is excellent, A good player can take a unpowered or under-powered deck very far.  In all honesty most decks would be better with full power.  However it isn't necessary in all decks (some decks it is more important than others) and 'Tog can be very affective without full power (and then again most people won't run a Timetwister in there 'tog deck meaning it isn't truley a 'full power' deck  

*checks*  Nope, looks like you only mentioned one tournament.  I hardly consider a secondhand anecdotal report for one 5-round event to be significant evidence in favor of a deck's quality.

Yes, a good player can do well with a bad deck.  But a good player with a good deck will cream the good player with a bad deck.  There's no excuse for playing with a bad deck in a seriously competitive environment and expecting to win if you can play with a better one.

It is quite true that all decks are better with full power, however, power IS necessary for some decks.  Decks with Workshops are a great example.  If you try to make a "budget" version of a Type 1 Workshop deck by cutting out power and replacing it with crap I garuntee it will suck.   Hulk is another example.  Though it is possible to play the deck without power, it does not work ANYWHERE NEAR as well as it does when fully powered.  Hulk is very mana hungry and desparate for the acceleration things like Moxen, Drains, and Mana Crypt provide.  The ability to Intuition in the first couple of turns is vital to the deck functioning correctly.  If you are really good (or cheat) you might still be able to consistently do well with it without that ability, but not if you're going up against players of simliar calibur who aren't retarded enough to play powered decks without power.  

So stop trying to tell this guy that he can go in to a strong competitive field with a Hulk build containing only 3 pieces of power and 2 drains and do well,  because it just isn't true.

@tracer03:  If you really want to play this style of deck, you may want to run GAT instead.  Though it also benefits greatly from power, it is somewhat less dependent on it than Hulk.

[Jhaggs]

I agree with Kelp completely.  If you're playing an unpowered Hulk deck or an unpowered Slavery build, you are infact playing something entirely different.  Decks that typically run double digit expensive cards simply cannot be converted into something lesser than what they orginally are.  As fun and as dominate as Hulk is, removing all of it's essential cards and replacing them with bad alternatives transforms the deck into something that it never intended to be.

To further illustrate this point, take a look at the fields inside 5-proxy tournaments.  Through this investigation you should see a large volume of decks that only operate under the premise that the best chance of winning is to use builds that require no more than 5 to 6 power cards (Oshawa/FCG/Fish/ect).

Finally, alot of people suggested running GAT but I would even shy away from this as well.  Many GAT builds run 4 colors these days (4 moxen).  That combined with Lotus, Walk and Recall, make it a poor choice to run in a 3 proxy tournament.  I would advise running FCG or Fish....or better yet, try U/G Madness.

[ELD]

I have to say the I have seen unpowered hulk in action, and it wasn't that bad.  The main deck differed as it had force spike.  Noticable in their absence were Twist and Will.  It is fairly consitant, but not broken.  I would have to say that GAT is probably better.  Fastbond can make up for lack of moxen and you could even run null rod main.  If you're set on running Hulk, Back to basics in the board is solid with all the islands replacing moxes.  To actually answer your post.

Ancestral-Required
Time Walk-Gets around Maze of Ith/random stuff like Whipcorder  It loses alot without Will and moxen to compliment it
Sapphire-UU on first turn is some good
Lotus-Allows for the most brokeness possible, Makes Will sick

If I was running your list I'd go Lotus, Ancestral and Walk.

[tracer03]

Thanks for all the great posts. I waffled playing something else entirely (Fish, Aggro r/g) simply because the lack of power wouldn't be as detrimental, and 3 proxies would supplement any "budget" build I could come up with.

I'm still waffling - I'm considering playing an aggro r/g deck, or playing GAT. At heart, I've always been an aggro player, and Hulk has been a fun deck to play (proxied, that is).

I have 4 weeks to play around, and some gamers at the shop to test builds against/with. I'm going to try and scope the local meta to see what decks I may be facing, and that may dictate the final deck.

The environment in my area (Mpls, MN) seems to be heavy in Keeper, Workshop/Stax-types, and Dragon - so I don't know which is better, bast*rd Hulk, GAT or RG aggro.....

The other solution is to convince the wife that I need to purchase power...

[eddavatar]

play FCG.

[Ivantheterrible]

This dose sound like a decent meta for fish as it is probably the best aggro(control) deck against wrokshops. Also if it isn't a big finacal problem I dont see why your wife should have an issue with you buying power. Remember if someone really loves you they should let you spend your money on things they may considere silly if the things bring you joy. Dont get me wrong I think that love and being with the person you love are more important then magic but you have to ask is their real love if she wont let you bye your cardboard pleasures.